Why Are You Not an Atheist?

[Audie]

It could. But where did the animal,computer or mechanical process come from?

You know what that line of questions leads to!

 

[Audie]

Yes, I don't want to pretend to know what I don't know. Thinking one has or assuming knowledge about something I see as a necessity for belief in it's existence.

People who claim to have special access
to arcane knowledge because they have the
right attitude, that "god" coaches them,
etc are so not credible.

Specially since in print it pretty much comes out as
gibberish. (I know, I know; you have to be on that
spiritual plane to understand it! )

 

[Cooky]

But life could be the reward and death is simply the end credits.

Yeah, but I don't like that idea. Why anyone would, IDK.

Ask God to turn you into a jellyfish?

They are kinda immortal.

True.

How does an afterlife give meaning to this life? How is reality affected by your afterlife options?

It doesn't actually.

I would argue that any life form that tries to avoid death understands death.

Or is it natural instinct?

If they didn't understand, why bother trying to avoid it?

Because It's programmed into their DNA. DNA, by the way, also

I'm sorry to hear that. I was with my grandfather the day he died. He insisted he accepted it and welcomed it. He was in severe pain from a torn aorta that the surgery apparently didn't fix. It was his time to go. As a nurse, it's sad and somewhat infuriating when acceptance hasn't been reached yet. I've seen too many people suffer horribly because either they or their families wanted an extension.


This is inaccurate. Some people welcome it.

Well that's the thing. They only want it because their bodies have failed. Why do our bodies have to fail? I think nature is cruel.

You don't eat?

I don't enjoy killing animals to eat. I don't embrace the cruelty of nature.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I really have no knowledge to base a belief on what this possible thing which is greater then ourselves might be. If we somehow discover it, test and verify it, would we even call it God? I understand in lacking knowledge perhaps we call it God. However what if it turns out to be other than what we expected?

What I can do is eliminate many things that other people would have me accept as God by determining logically the characteristics that God must have. To begin with if things are visible and verifiable then God they are not, so anything verifiable cannot be God. Believing in God is a choice. It is an act of free will.

As a atheist, I am simply accepting my ignorance and take a position that there is no knowledge to base a theistic belief on.

That is only possible for you, because you do not live in places that require theism as part of governance. Sadly most people have some kind of theism pushed upon them and one that has peculiar human and political interests and one that is claimed to be verifiable. What you have done is you have rejected such claims and are very nearly a theist whatever you call yourself. You are sponsored and are fortunate to have a choice same as me.

 

[Audie]

Yeah, but I don't like that idea. Why anyone would, IDK.



True.



It doesn't actually.



Or is it natural instinct?



Because It's programmed into their DNA. DNA, by the way, also



Well that's the thing. They only want it because their bodies have failed. Why do our bodies have to fail? I think nature is cruel.



I don't enjoy killing animals to eat. I don't embrace the cruelty of nature.

Seems as if you love god,but not his works?

 

[Jumi]

Well, who knows. Not everyone had nice parents?

You're saying that people without nice parents don't have innate disposition toward nice gods.

And me...terrific parents, but, I feel no pull whateer
to believe in a god.

Same with all three, yet I'm theist.

Not a nice one,not a mean one or a purple
one or a yellow one.

Same, none of those have appeal. Could add plenty more adjectives that seem to be some peoples "god concepts" who seem to be stuck with caricature-like antropomorphic gods.

For lo, the belief in god that so many have must
surely be from having it instilled at an impressionable
age.

I was atheist from as far as I can remember until a year or two back. Don't believe in the God that was taught in school, never did. So the indoctrination theory goes out the window.

 

[Cooky]

Seems as if you love god,but not his works?

We believe that before Adam and Eve failed, there was no death, pain or suffering. They tainted the DNA.

 

[Audie]

We believe that before Adam and Eve failed, there was no death, pain or suffering. They tainted the DNA.

All relevant data of course shows this is just a story.

If it is, arent you being kinda disrespectful to such
god as there may be, saying his stuff is no good?

 

[Audie]

You're saying that people without nice parents don't have innate disposition toward nice gods.


Same with all three, yet I'm theist.


Same, none of those have appeal. Could add plenty more adjectives that seem to be some peoples "god concepts" who seem to be stuck with caricature-like antropomorphic gods.


I was atheist from as far as I can remember until a year or two back. Don't believe in the God that was taught in school, never did. So the indoctrination theory goes out the window.

Not really. Sometimes it works, sometimes indoctrination
doesnt work. Id guess it generally does work.

 

[Regiomontanus]

If it is, arent you being kinda disrespectful to such
god as there may be, saying his stuff is no good?

Hello. It does not sound like you have a very firm grasp of orthodox Christianity, based on that comment.

 

[Cooky]

All relevant data of course shows this is just a story.

If it is, arent you being kinda disrespectful to such
god as there may be, saying his stuff is no good?

Yes. Which is why I understand that many people won't accept it -Which is okay with me.

...But no, this isn't how it was supposed to be.

 

[Deeje]

Brilliant @Deeje. I think we're on the same page with things.

Nice to know Landon...but we are in a minority apparently.

That's a good point. I guess what I was getting at was that partially the reason for my belief in the supernatural is based on my contempt and frustrations with reality - the reality that I might die at a time when I won't want to.

...The cruelness of the natural world. I reject it. Like lions who attack weaker cubs. I reject it.

Why do I reject something so natural? I don't know, but I think a lot of people do.

I can see that you are also on the same page as myself in this too.

The harsh realities of this life did not gel with the loving Creator I was taught about in church. It wasn't until I put down the teachings of the church and actually picked up the Bible that I realized that all the focus was on the wrong premise. What we perceive as the beginning of something has a huge impact on how we evaluate the middle and the end of any story.....so I went back to the beginning...."a very good place to start" (que Julie Andrews )

I had always believed that earth was some sort of training ground for heaven, the place I was told that all good Christians will go. But the more I read Genesis and meditated on what it said, rather than what the church taught, something emerged that was like a lightning bolt to me.....there was no "heaven or hell" scenario there at all. The bottom line in what God told Adam was..."obey me and live forever on earth....or disobey me and your existence will be terminated....you will return to the earth from which I created you"....end of story. (Genesis 3:19)

Telling Adam that he would go back to where he came from, meant that before Adam was created, he did not exist, and he would return to that same state. This is I believe, what prompted the devil to tell that first lie....."you surely will not die". He wanted the humans to break God's law but he first had to remove the penalty in their minds. He has been perpetuating that first lie to humanity in various forms ever since, creating an invisible "afterlife" where disembodied souls exist in some imaginary place, unseen by anyone. He went even further by providing "mediums" or "go-betweens" so that contact with the spirit world would reinforce that belief that 'we don't really die'....but it was a sham all along and it explains why God forbade his people any contact with the spirit world or to engage in spiritistic practices. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) The pagan world was rife with such teachings. God tried to protect his people from that sort of spiritual contamination, but the desire to go on living is very strong and eventually most of the human race have been won over.

The only ones who inhabit the spirit realm are the ones God created to live there. He did not create humans to live there.....everlasting life was meant to be enjoyed right here in paradise conditions on earth where God put us at the beginning. Human mortality did not mean that we would die of any "natural" cause...but only from unnatural ones, caused by a withdrawal from their Creator. Romans 5:12 tells us that "sin" became like an inherited genetic disorder that would cause the deaths of all of Adam's children. It involves aging, succumbing to illness, pain, suffering and eventually, death. It feels wrong because it was never supposed to happen...we have no 'program' for death.

So what is the real scenario that God laid out at the beginning? There was to be a "seed" who would come into the world and his perfect life would atone for the perfect life that Adam lost for us. So where are all the dead if that is the case? The Bible says that they sleeping, peacefully in their graves, waiting for the call of their king to awaken them.....this is the Bible's teaching of a resurrection.

This is the promise from Jesus himself.....John 5:25-29 RSVCE
"25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, 27 and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."

What do you see there? The dead are still in their tombs or else Jesus could not call people out of them. Both the good and the bad will come come out together restored to life here on earth. The "good" will enjoy life because of already proving righteous in God's eyes, but the ones who have "done evil" (perhaps living at a time or in a place where the true God and his Christ were not known) will have an opportunity to learn God's ways and to bring their lives into harmony with his will. They will then be judged worthy of life...or not.

Jesus already showed that the incorrigibly "wicked" (like the Pharisees) will be consigned to "gehenna"....which the Bible indicates is a place from which no one returns. It is an everlasting loss of life...eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. Only God knows who these ones are.

It took me a while to come to terms with the fact that I had been misled all my life about these things, but the more I thought about it, the more sense it made. As a Jew, Jesus had no belief in an afterlife because it was not taught in Jewish scripture. in fact it says that the dead are unconscious in their graves.

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.....Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, [the grave] to which you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10 RSVCE)

Those we have lost in death are sleeping peacefully in their graves waiting for Jesus to wake them up. I am so looking forward to the day when I can welcome back all those I have lost and know that the troubles that plague the present world will not even be a memory. (Isaiah 65:17)
......and if my own life ends in this world, then I will sleep and awaken along with all the rest.....time becomes irrelevant. It won't matter if they died 5 days ago or 5 thousand years ago....when we sleep we have no conscious awareness of time.

Those "chosen" to go to heaven to rule with Christ are a small number and are personally chosen by God for that role....the majority of humankind will live where we were supposed to live....forever in paradise on earth.

This is what makes sense to me. I couldn't be an atheist if I tried.

 

[Audie]

Yes. Which is why I understand that many people won't accept it -Which is okay with me.

...But no, this isn't how it was supposed to be.

I wonder what gives you that idea?

"Supposed" has no meaning in this.

Things-life- are like that because, that is what life /death IS,
it cannot be any other way.

 

[Jumi]

Not really. Sometimes it works, sometimes indoctrination
doesnt work. Id guess it generally does work.

Most people go with the flow. If you're something, it's easy to keep being that something with no effort, unless you're part of the "5%" who agree with Socrates on unexamined life.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I don't enjoy killing animals to eat. I don't embrace the cruelty of nature.

But their deaths are still required for you to live. Nature doesn't offer customer service surveys, unfortunately.

We believe that before Adam and Eve failed, there was no death, pain or suffering.

Or eating? You realize that whatever you eat is gonna be dead before, during, or after digestion, right? Unless you're a really hardy seed or something or a parasite and it's part of your life cycle. Otherwise, yeah, we're all killers. Even our immune systems kill 24/7 whether we are aware of it or not.

If it is, arent you being kinda disrespectful to such
god as there may be, saying his stuff is no good?

Acts 11

4Starting from the beginning, Peter told them the whole story: 5“I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. 6I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles and birds. 7Then I heard a voice telling me, ‘Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.’

8“I replied, ‘Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’

9“The voice spoke from heaven a second time, ‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.’ 10This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again.

Guess some people skim that part.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

@Shadow Wolf mentioned that "Too many other animals, such as chimps and elephants, have a concept of death"...but the fact is, they don't. They may respond to the death of one of their own, but the fact is, humans are the only species that can contemplate their own death or the death of loved ones in the future.

If they know and perceive death, how can they not know they will die? Elephants have been known to visit their dead, and chimps have died from being grief stricken. 'Tis nothing more than the same anthropocentrism that thought only humans can reason, think, and experience feelings, thoughts that were firmly believed until Jane Goodall showed that to be wrong.

nimals live in the moment...they have no concept of the future

Then why do they migrate, store nuts for the winter, consumer large amounts of fat for hibernation, and do other things planning for the future?

 

[Deeje]

If they know and perceive death, how can they not know they will die?

They experience the death of a 'family' member 'in the moment' and can see the lifeless body which elicits a response in them. That is a far cry from contemplating their own death or the future death of a member of their troop or herd who is still living. That requires imagination, which I believe is a purely human faculty. Only we have concepts of past, present and future and can distinguish between them. Only we can plan our activities with a view to doing things in the future.

Elephants have been known to visit their dead, and chimps have died from being grief stricken. 'Tis nothing more than the same anthropocentrism that thought only humans can reason, think, and experience feelings, thoughts that were firmly believed until Jane Goodall showed that to be wrong.

Animals can experience these feelings in the moment....but it doesn't require reasoning or thinking...they are responding to an event, or to the loss of the presence of a family member. Animals will fret over the loss of a companion (human or animal) but they don't know why. They can't reason like we can.

Did you ever see the movie "Haichi"? It was based on the true story of a dog whose owner died suddenly and for 10 years that dog went to meet his master off the train like he did every day when he was alive. Had he been able to reason, he would not have done that. He would have realized that his master wasn't coming home.

Then why do they migrate, store nuts for the winter, consumer large amounts of fat for hibernation, and do other things planning for the future?

You don't know about instinct? It is 'programmed' into creatures to store food....or to hibernate...or to migrate....you don't honestly think that they consciously plan to do these things...do you? Seriously? Butterflies migrate...do you think they plan their trip?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course. Although, when someone calls themselves an "atheist" or a "theist," behind the scenes they have a more specific construct thereof within their minds. They have ideas about what the word (or cultural equivalent of) "god" means when they call themselves that. I mean, I do. When I say I'm a theist, I certainly don't mean classical monotheism that comes to mind for most in my culture. I mean polytheism, which is pretty darned foreign to the contemporary way of thinking about theism. I typically have more in common ideologically with "atheists" than I do other "theists" in my culture.

You don't need any concept of what "god" means to be an atheist; all you need (to self-apply the term, anyway) is to recognize that there's nothing you believe in that you would call a god.

Ignostics are the extreme end of this: they argue that the term "god" is so ill-defined that they can't even evaluate the claim "a god exists," but they're still atheists. You can't believe what you can't conceive, so anyone who holds no god concepts at all must be an atheist.

But at the same time, there's nothing about being a theist or an atheist that stops a person from acknowledging god concepts that they don't personally accept. We do this all the time, in fact. It happens every time we apply the label "theist" to someone else whose god(s) are very different from what we'd believe in ourselves.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Your faith-belief in that bit of nonsense says so much.

I have faith that, over time, you will come to see things God's way.

 

[Audie]

I have faith that, over time, you will come to see things God's way.

And that would magically change your nonsensical statements
into something else?

Such faith in your beliefs!