Why be against universal healthcare?

[jazzymom]

No, you really don't have a point. The baby boomers are the problem that is about to plunge the whole system into instability. Unless I'm mistaken, that's your generation. Your parents had enough kids to support their dotage, through paying into social security. Until your generation retires, it is also sitting on the majority of the real estate and the middle class jobs that younger generations would have needed access to in order to contribute more into the system. Your generation also benefited from the golden age of public financing for social programs the second world war, gaining inexpensive access to affordable housing and education programs that leveled the playing field enough for you to succeed. You benefited from the housing bubble and the internet bubble financially, beyond any sustainable level of economic growth, and were the last generation in north American history to have every day be a little better than the day before.

And then you threw it all away - threw your kids under a bus, and their kids, watching tuition skyrocket and saying nothing, watching the cost of housing skyrocket and saying nothing, hollering for tax cuts and cuts to social programs and repeatedly electing representatives who would ensure that no generation would ever again enjoy the privileges that you enjoyed - in particular affordable housing and education and a strong job market full of reliable middle class employment.

Your generation created this leaky vessel, out of ignorance, sloth, greed and a ludicrously rosy view of the benefits of unregulated capitalism and a weakened public sector. My generation and those that come after now has to clean up the biggest mess in human history because you folks dropped the ball - resource depletion, climate change and financial ruin. We didn't cause any of that because we have no power - we are the generation that still works at Starbucks after paying $70,000 for a degree because you lot shipped all the good jobs offshore to line your pockets. We are a disenfranchised generation, many of whom don't even bother to vote because every single candidate is pandering to you and doesn't give a **** about the problems we are facing, or the future problems we anticipate and are desperate to act on now for the benefit of future generations, like the global water and food shortage climate change and over- population are about to bring down on us.

I won't tolerate any whining from you, nor should anybody else. As you yourself said, lead, follow or get out of the way. 60% of Americans want universal health care, and last I checked your country was supposed to be a democracy.

Well said!

 

[Valjean]

After thinking about this thread for awhile I think you may have a point. If we get sick we should be entitled to free health care. But I think you are overlooking a bigger problem. Some of us may never get sick or injured, but all of us need to eat. How about universal food? And we all need shelter and comfort. How about universal housing? And we all could use a respite from work. How about universal vacations? Just tell me how much and where to drop my donations to these worthy causes.

As Copernicus points out, this is exactly what society does. it's why we have a society to begin with. In some European countries you can even get your vacation prescribed by a doctor and paid for by the Co-op (state). -- all for half the cost of what Americans are paying just for emergency care.
We live in a society -- conceived by the founding fathers as a co-op or huge extended family. If your son ask for a loaf, would you give him a stone?

So I get drafted but your generation does not.

I could not get insurance and have had to pay my way all my life.

Now you want to tax me so you can get free health care?

Am I wrong for feeling screwed here?

I pay taxes for universal free education -- but I have no children. I'm OK with that, though. I don't want to live in a society of illiterate incompetents.
As for taxes for free health care, you're already paying twice what the rest of the developed world is in healthcare dedicated income taxes.

Seriously, the older generation is sucking the system dry at my expense. They will leave my generation nothing in our old age.

The younger generation is squeezing the system.

Is my generation the only generation that had to pay our own way?

Make fun all you want, I have a point here.

I'm a baby boomer. As such, I'm subject to double the FICA payments of previous -- and future -- generations. In the early eighties Reagan instituted program of double taxation for my generation, to deal with the glut of healthcare costs anticipated for our old age. After my generation passes on, the Medicare system -- currently fully funded for the next 20+ years, will revert back to a pay-as-you-go system.
I'm paying for both my own and the next generation -- and I'm OK with that.

 

[Valjean]

Should anyone be forced to pay for something they have absolutely no say in?

That's the Nature of the Social Contract, BSM. If we expect to live in the huge amalgam that is modern society we all need to pull together and relinquish some of our perfect freedom to the interests of the group. Taxes are the price we pay for the quality of life society offers.

 

[BSM1]

No, you really don't have a point. The baby boomers are the problem that is about to plunge the whole system into instability. Unless I'm mistaken, that's your generation. Your parents had enough kids to support their dotage, through paying into social security. Until your generation retires, it is also sitting on the majority of the real estate and the middle class jobs that younger generations would have needed access to in order to contribute more into the system. Your generation also benefited from the golden age of public financing for social programs the second world war, gaining inexpensive access to affordable housing and education programs that leveled the playing field enough for you to succeed. You benefited from the housing bubble and the internet bubble financially, beyond any sustainable level of economic growth, and were the last generation in north American history to have every day be a little better than the day before.

And then you threw it all away - threw your kids under a bus, and their kids, watching tuition skyrocket and saying nothing, watching the cost of housing skyrocket and saying nothing, hollering for tax cuts and cuts to social programs and repeatedly electing representatives who would ensure that no generation would ever again enjoy the privileges that you enjoyed - in particular affordable housing and education and a strong job market full of reliable middle class employment.

Your generation created this leaky vessel, out of ignorance, sloth, greed and a ludicrously rosy view of the benefits of unregulated capitalism and a weakened public sector. My generation and those that come after now has to clean up the biggest mess in human history because you folks dropped the ball - resource depletion, climate change and financial ruin. We didn't cause any of that because we have no power - we are the generation that still works at Starbucks after paying $70,000 for a degree because you lot shipped all the good jobs offshore to line your pockets. We are a disenfranchised generation, many of whom don't even bother to vote because every single candidate is pandering to you and doesn't give a **** about the problems we are facing, or the future problems we anticipate and are desperate to act on now for the benefit of future generations, like the global water and food shortage climate change and over- population are about to bring down on us.

I won't tolerate any whining from you, nor should anybody else. As you yourself said, lead, follow or get out of the way. 60% of Americans want universal health care, and last I checked your country was supposed to be a democracy.

Obviously we see things differently, but you are mistaken on one point--we were never a democracy, we are and always have been a republic. There is a difference.

 

[Copernicus]

I'm a baby boomer. As such, I'm subject to double the FICA payments of previous -- and future -- generations. In the early eighties Reagan instituted program of double taxation for my generation, to deal with the glut of healthcare costs anticipated for our old age. After my generation passes on, the Medicare system -- currently fully funded for the next 20+ years, will revert back to a pay-as-you-go system.
I'm paying for both my own and the next generation -- and I'm OK with that.

I'm in the same boat as Seyorni--baby boomer with no children. I've paid a lot of taxes throughout my working life, and I'm just starting to receive Medicare. I pay taxes for a lot of things that I don't benefit directly from and for some things that are definitely not in my interest. Nevertheless, that is the price I pay for membership in society. I want people to get a good education, health care, and retirement benefits. It isn't just that I want my doctors and lawyers to be the best they can be, but there is certainly some amount of self-interest in it. My life would be less enjoyable without people to share it with, and I would like those people to be happy, as well.

 

[Copernicus]

Obviously we see things differently, but you are mistaken on one point--we were never a democracy, we are and always have been a republic. There is a difference.

We are a representative democracy. That's what most people mean when they say "democracy".

 

[Penumbra]

Seriously, the older generation is sucking the system dry at my expense. They will leave my generation nothing in our old age.

The younger generation is squeezing the system.

Is my generation the only generation that had to pay our own way?

Make fun all you want, I have a point here.

In what way is the younger generation squeezing the system? My generation is likely going to get hit much harder by all of this than your generation.

Currently I have paid a ton of money to the government and received very little in return. Lots of give, little take.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Seriously, the older generation is sucking the system dry at my expense. They will leave my generation nothing in our old age.

The younger generation is squeezing the system.

Is my generation the only generation that had to pay our own way?

Make fun all you want, I have a point here.

Actually reform doesn't mean people won't pay their own way, it just means they'll pay it in a smart way that is more efficient. And without reform of the private U.S. system, the next generation will pay far more than you did:

So if some kind of inter-generational notion of fairness is truly your goal, then we still need to cut health care expenditures down to 5-10% GDP, which is what 1st world countries with universal health care systems pay. (Keep in mind 1% of GDP is a huge amount of money.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have never called end of life counseling "death panels". :no:

Giving 90 year olds hip replacements or new knees is money we just don't have to spend. Keep grandpa comfortable, change his diaper and feed him three times a day.

He is not going to run a marathon after all.

Being 90 in a wheel chair is not that tragic.

Exactly how many 90-year-olds do you think are getting hip replacements? How big a percentage of health care spending do you think goes to this?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I started a new thread with some data that should answer the question:
Which costs more: a more private, or a more public health care system?

Here's a sneak-peek:

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

People have ACCESS to care as is, in my community, at least. And the person that won't go to the free health clinic that offers preventive care, will go to the neighborhood Food Lion for a twelve pack and a pack of cigarattes.

I'm not blanket labeling. Because I know that this isn't the story of every American without health insurance, but, in my community, there are free health clinics and information on these health clinics are provided through our local department of social and human services.

People can go and receive free health care and medications. But, there are people that won't do it. They won't take advantage of the free health care that's available to them, but will go put themselves in a worse off financial situation by walking down to the local supermarket to buy a twelve pack, a pack of cigarettes and a bucket of fried chicken.

The health care is available to them. They don't take advantage of it. They choose to make decisions which can have a negate impact on their health and then they burden the nation's heatlh care system later on when diabetes, heart disease, stroke and other ailments become severe.

What sort of health care is available to them, though? Are you talking about one clinic with long wait times and limited hours that's considered the "poor people's" clinic? If so, then I think that providing an alternative that's high quality, convenient, and stigma-free would still encourage people to go who don't go now.

 

[Alceste]

What sort of health care is available to them, though? Are you talking about one clinic with long wait times and limited hours that's considered the "poor people's" clinic? If so, then I think that providing an alternative that's high quality, convenient, and stigma-free would still encourage people to go who don't go now.

I looked it up after Dawny mentioned free clinics. There are only 1000 of them in the whole country. That's 20 per state. The study I read didn't discuss distribution, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume distribution is concentrated in blue states, such as the north-east, and in urban centers.

That's one free clinic for every 30,000 Americans. Seems... Optimistic... To assume these clinics can address every necessary health procedure for every American without insurance.

 

[Pegg]

I looked it up after Dawny mentioned free clinics. There are only 1000 of them in the whole country. That's 20 per state. The study I read didn't discuss distribution, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume distribution is concentrated in blue states, such as the north-east, and in urban centers.

That's one free clinic for every 30,000 Americans. Seems... Optimistic... To assume these clinics can address every necessary health procedure for every American without insurance.

if america went with a public health system, more clinics would open up.

In australia, most doctors are part of the public system while a smaller percentage are private. There are also more public hospitals then there are private. But there are plenty of private doctors who also work in the public system. And some public doctors also run their own private clinics.

 

[Alceste]

if america went with a public health system, more clinics would open up.

In australia, most doctors are part of the public system while a smaller percentage are private. There are also more public hospitals then there are private. But there are plenty of private doctors who also work in the public system. And some public doctors also run their own private clinics.

Sure, the main thing is that nobody is going without in Australia, or any other developed nation except America. In the UK, for example, there are several private hospitals. People can choose to go there if they like, and pay out of pocket or through private insurance. Hardly anybody does, since the service there is both expensive and inferior. Their clientele is entirely comprised of very wealthy conservative ideologues. I actually wouldn't mind if the Canadian equivalent of these morons had their own separate health care system, as long as my tax dollars didn't end up supporting them in any way, and everyone else was still covered.

 

[Reverend Rick]

My neighbor was diagnosed with congestive heart failure and was given less than two years to live. He barely lived another year but during that year he received two eye surgeries.

 

[BSM1]

That's the Nature of the Social Contract, BSM. If we expect to live in the huge amalgam that is modern society we all need to pull together and relinquish some of our perfect freedom to the interests of the group. Taxes are the price we pay for the quality of life society offers.

While this is a fine sentiment, where does it end? Who decides what constitutes the "quality" of life? How much tax is enough? Why should I produce when I can be guaranteed a "quality of life" from the production of others? Can one man's utopia exist without creating another's socialist hell?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

This always goes back to what I shared as a question before. People complain about what's fair for taxes, and I understand. But what are fair entitlements?

Clean water?
Tornado sirens?
Functional roads and bridges?
Safe building codes?
Access to information?
Libraries?
Interstate Highways?
FAA?
GI Bills?
The FDIC?
Education?
Recalls on dangerous products sold to the public?

And here we're arguing over health care and if it's a fair entitlement that should be added to the above list.

Let's say technological advances allow a society to efficiently offer health care to all it's citizens, not those the society feels deserves it the most. If we have the technology to provide it easily, is health care a fair entitlement?

Once upon a time, books were as rare as gold, were they not? And were there arguments over whether having books in the hands of every citizen considered shameful or if it were noble? Were enough advancements made in technology to provide for a free society that had easy access to the written word? Is this comparable to health care or not?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

This always goes back to what I shared as a question before. People complain about what's fair for taxes, and I understand. But what are fair entitlements?

Clean water?
Tornado sirens?
Functional roads and bridges?
Safe building codes?
Access to information?
Libraries?
Interstate Highways?
FAA?
GI Bills?
The FDIC?
Education?
Recalls on dangerous products sold to the public?

And here we're arguing over health care and if it's a fair entitlement that should be added to the above list.

Let's say technological advances allow a society to efficiently offer health care to all it's citizens, not those the society feels deserves it the most. If we have the technology to provide it easily, is health care a fair entitlement?

Once upon a time, books were as rare as gold, were they not? And were there arguments over whether having books in the hands of every citizen considered shameful or if it were noble? Were enough advancements made in technology to provide for a free society that had easy access to the written word? Is this comparable to health care or not?

I was going to say something along these lines. If having good health isn't a necessity for each and every person, then we should also get rid of things like libraries, roads, education, emergency services (police, fire, etc), etc. Unless, of course, each and every person paid for each and every service provided. We pay our share, out of pocket, for roads, schools, clean water, police, etc, just like going to the grocery store. Things we take for granted, seen under this new light, really seems like we're getting the good end of the deal? Why, on earth, is health any different? Because those who can't afford to pay for their own health care, i.e., the poor, are more easily eliminated?

 

[dawny0826]

I looked it up after Dawny mentioned free clinics. There are only 1000 of them in the whole country. That's 20 per state. The study I read didn't discuss distribution, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume distribution is concentrated in blue states, such as the north-east, and in urban centers.

That's one free clinic for every 30,000 Americans. Seems... Optimistic... To assume these clinics can address every necessary health procedure for every American without insurance.

There are over 20 free clinics in the Commonwealth of Virginia and these are those clinics that are part of the Association of Free Clinics network.
The free clinic in my city is not government operated. It's a non-profit that runs on donations. There are, in fact, 53 in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

http://www.vafreeclinics.org/find-a-free-clinic.asp

This is the clinic in my community. I work with volunteers who have worked themselves in the clinic, which attracted me to it. In my job, I have to know what resources are available within our community as I may have a client in need of such resource.

Community Free Clinic of Newport News

No clinic claims that they can address every need. They provide preventive health care and sometimes, mental and dental health services. They work through networks to provide referrals when patients need additional services and steer patients towards lower cost options.

The clinic established in the east end of Newport News (I live in Newport News) was established because it was known that people without health care were using the emergency room for primary care. The intent of the clinic was to provide a very nice facility for those that need services.

Stigma's not really an issue for a community that is predominately system-supported. These people, literally LOOK and ASK for free services. Many don't have transportation. The free clinic was strategically placed where people could easily access services, without leaving their neighborhood. It was built brand new or I should say, heavily gutted and rennovated (donated services by a predominant company in our area) and started with part time hours. As they increased their staff, it was increased to full time hours.

Yes, I'm sure that people have to wait at times for service, but, it doesn't negate the fact that they can obtain good health care right in their own neighborhood and have the ability to establish a relationship with a doctor, as they would in a private practice. This was the entire purpose of the clinic.

This clinic also has on-site pharmacy and provides free medication.

It is amazing what can be accomplished through donated time and funding.

 

[dawny0826]

What sort of health care is available to them, though? Are you talking about one clinic with long wait times and limited hours that's considered the "poor people's" clinic? If so, then I think that providing an alternative that's high quality, convenient, and stigma-free would still encourage people to go who don't go now.

The same, preventive health care that's offered in the typical family practice. The extent of care is contingent of course upon which companies and professionals are willing to donate their time. Meaning, one may need to be referred elsewhere for an x-ray or for lab services. But, many of us are referred out of our family practice for these services, too.

Yes, there are some Americans that are going to attach a stigma to a free clinic, but, why wouldn't you take advantage of a free service if you needed it?

You can stigmatize and downplay the efforts of non-profit work if you want to, but, I I see it making a considerable difference in my community, daily and it's a solution that I prefer over Obamacare and Universal Health Care. Neither are grass-roots. Neither focus on indiviudals and their personal obstacles in the way that non-profit networks can. There are many organizations with specific missions to meet. Career development, support for drug/alcohol abuse, food, clothing, househood goods....