Why be against universal healthcare?

[Falvlun]

Of course not. What I'm saying is that it's perfectly acceptable for the hospital to pursue payment after services are rendered. It's a SERVICE.

And if they cannot pay?

It is a service, but one that offers something fundamentally different from any other. We are talking about your health, your life, the life and health of your loved ones, people that depend upon you. This is not something you really have a choice to get. It is not like cable or buying a new car.

It is a service that people cannot refuse. Which is why 60% of bankruptcies are caused by medical expenses. When the choice is bankruptcy and the life of your child, what do you think you are going to choose?

Through no fault of their own, then, people become financially unstable, lose any ground they gained through hard work and effort, and become a burden on society. And to think that conservatives think that people are poor simply because they are lazy!

We aren't entitled to anything that has a price tag associated with it.

Everything costs something. Do you believe, then, that we have no rights?

I also agree with a previous poster's remark that rights are arbitrary. It is what we, the people, make them to be.

 

[Alceste]

Why shouldn't Americans be able to cultivate non-profit networks, if they solve problems within their communities? Whey can't a doctor volunteer his time without being paid at all?

Who said they would not be able to create charities etc. if professionals who heal the poor were paid the same as professionals who help the rich? It's a false dichotomy. Canada still has loads of charities and non-profits helping our communities. But we still pay all our doctors, whether they're helping the rich or the poor. It's a highly specialized job, and as you pointed out, quite expensive to gain the necessary education and equipment. Why don't you want them to be paid when they treat sick poor people?

 

[Copernicus]

Why shouldn't Americans be able to cultivate non-profit networks, if they solve problems within their communities? Whey can't a doctor volunteer his time without being paid at all?

Are you saying that the doctors in all those countries with national health care systems are depriving their doctors of the opportunity to work for free?

 

[Alceste]

Are you saying that the doctors in all those countries with national health care systems are depriving their doctors of the opportunity to work for free?

They're positively outraged. Lol.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Myself I don't know what I would have done if my sister wasn't a physicians assistant. Anytime I am sick all I have to do is call her and she calls me in some anti-biotics, and I pay only 5 dollars to get over an illness. If I had to actually go to a doctor it would be closer to 100, which means I would have been waiting to see if I could have gotten better over the minor stuff on my own without going to the doctor. Which means I may have gotten a lot more sick than I was.

 

[dawny0826]

Who said they would not be able to create charities etc. if professionals who heal the poor were paid the same as professionals who help the rich? It's a false dichotomy. Canada still has loads of charities and non-profits helping our communities. But we still pay all our doctors, whether they're helping the rich or the poor. It's a highly specialized job, and as you pointed out, quite expensive to gain the necessary education and equipment. Why don't you want them to be paid when they treat sick poor people?

I was specifically referencing the medical professionals who give back to their communities through non-profit networks. These are the kind-hearted folks that I was referencing. Most doctors who work for a non-profit electively choose less pay for the work that they do or volunteer services at no cost.

I'm not talking about the bigger system. I think that professional wages should be competitive.

 

[dawny0826]

Are you saying that the doctors in all those countries with national health care systems are depriving their doctors of the opportunity to work for free?

No, I was simply responding to her post with a question.

 

[Alceste]

I was specifically referencing the medical professionals who give back to their communities through non-profit networks. These are the kind-hearted folks that I was referencing. Most doctors who work for a non-profit electively choose less pay for the work that they do or volunteer services at no cost.

I'm not talking about the bigger system. I think that professional wages should be competitive.

You are implying that they should not be paid when they work out of kindness. That's a false dichotomy. We pay our doctors to provide essential health services to the poor, but they can and do still contribute to charities and non-profits in any way they choose. Medicins sans Frontiers, for example, is well supported in Canada. They just don't have much to do in this country because we cover everybody. They operate in war zones, emergencies, famines, and the third world.

 

[Copernicus]

You are implying that they should not be paid when they work out of kindness. That's a false dichotomy. We pay our doctors to provide essential health services to the poor, but they can and do still contribute to charities and non-profits in any way they choose. Medicins sans Frontiers, for example, is well supported in Canada. They just don't have much to do in this country because we cover everybody. They operate in war zones, emergencies, famines, and the third world.

As a matter of fact, I have an atheist friend who belongs to that organization. He is British, but he has been to Darfur several times. Doctors in the US quite often do charity work precisely because there are so many people at home who need it. If we had a national health care system, kind-hearted and charitable people would still have plenty of opportunity to donate their services to the needy in other countries. The shame is that they are needed here in one of the richest countries on Earth.

 

[Alceste]

As a matter of fact, I have an atheist friend who belongs to that organization. He is British, but he has been to Darfur several times. Doctors in the US quite often do charity work precisely because there are so many people at home who need it. If we had a national health care system, kind-hearted and charitable people would still have plenty of opportunity to donate their services to the needy in other countries. The shame is that they are needed here in one of the richest countries on Earth.

Yes, for us it would be a national embarrassment not to be able to send charitably inclined doctors to help in times of social breakdown and catastrophe around the world because they're too busy lancing boils for our own Walmart employees.

 

[BSM1]

After thinking about this thread for awhile I think you may have a point. If we get sick we should be entitled to free health care. But I think you are overlooking a bigger problem. Some of us may never get sick or injured, but all of us need to eat. How about universal food? And we all need shelter and comfort. How about universal housing? And we all could use a respite from work. How about universal vacations? Just tell me how much and where to drop my donations to these worthy causes.

 

[Alceste]

After thinking about this thread for awhile I think you may have a point. If we get sick we should be entitled to free health care. But I think you are overlooking a bigger problem. Some of us may never get sick or injured, but all of us need to eat. How about universal food? And we all need shelter and comfort. How about universal housing? And we all could use a respite from work. How about universal vacations? Just tell me how much and where to drop my donations to these worthy causes.

Slippery slope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This line of reasoning is particularly silly because universal health care is well tested and well established in every developed country on earth, except yours. As you can see, all our countries are still capitalist democracies where one rises or falls by their own efforts, despite decades of not having to worry about losing our homes if our kids get a chronic illness we can't afford to pay for.

 

[Copernicus]

After thinking about this thread for awhile I think you may have a point. If we get sick we should be entitled to free health care. But I think you are overlooking a bigger problem. Some of us may never get sick or injured, but all of us need to eat. How about universal food? And we all need shelter and comfort. How about universal housing? And we all could use a respite from work. How about universal vacations? Just tell me how much and where to drop my donations to these worthy causes.

We do have food stamps, Medicaid, and HUD. Such programs exist for the needy, although they aren't as generous as in many other countries. The question here is what we should do about our health care system, which just about everyone admits needs fixing. Nobody is proposing that health care be free, only that it be universally provided at general expense. If you never get sick or injured, you might end up paying more than others for that care. However, your same reasoning could apply to FEMA. If you never get caught in a natural disaster and need to have your food and shelter provided by the government, should you have to pay for those who do need that assistance?

 

[Reverend Rick]

So because a generation after yours makes progress, you are jealous and think it shouldn't happen? And who said anything about it being a "free ride?" I see many people mentioning they don't mind paying taxes for such a system though, which means they are acknowledging the fact it isn't free.

So I get drafted but your generation does not.

I could not get insurance and have had to pay my way all my life.

Now you want to tax me so you can get free health care?

Am I wrong for feeling screwed here?

 

[Revoltingest]

So I get drafted but your generation does not.
I could not get insurance and have had to pay my way all my life.
Now you want to tax me so you can get free health care?
Am I wrong for feeling screwed here?

Worry not.
Your kids & grandkids will get screwed too (repaying the national debt).
At least we had it easier to make cash under the table & live the good life.
Starving the beast will get harder with cash becoming electronic & easier for gov to surveil.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I know! He's like a slave fighting emancipation. "what, after I've been in chains all my life, suddenly my kids and grandkids want to be free??? Not if I can help it!"

Seriously, the older generation is sucking the system dry at my expense. They will leave my generation nothing in our old age.

The younger generation is squeezing the system.

Is my generation the only generation that had to pay our own way?

Make fun all you want, I have a point here.

 

[BSM1]

We do have food stamps, Medicaid, and HUD. Such programs exist for the needy, although they aren't as generous as in many other countries. The question here is what we should do about our health care system, which just about everyone admits needs fixing. Nobody is proposing that health care be free, only that it be universally provided at general expense. If you never get sick or injured, you might end up paying more than others for that care. However, your same reasoning could apply to FEMA. If you never get caught in a natural disaster and need to have your food and shelter provided by the government, should you have to pay for those who do need that assistance?

Should anyone be forced to pay for something they have absolutely no say in?

 

[BSM1]

Slippery slope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This line of reasoning is particularly silly because universal health care is well tested and well established in every developed country on earth, except yours. As you can see, all our countries are still capitalist democracies where one rises or falls by their own efforts, despite decades of not having to worry about losing our homes if our kids get a chronic illness we can't afford to pay for.

The Canadian Patients

I'm sure your system has drastically improved.

 

[Alceste]

Seriously, the older generation is sucking the system dry at my expense. They will leave my generation nothing in our old age.

The younger generation is squeezing the system.

Is my generation the only generation that had to pay our own way?

Make fun all you want, I have a point here.

No, you really don't have a point. The baby boomers are the problem that is about to plunge the whole system into instability. Unless I'm mistaken, that's your generation. Your parents had enough kids to support their dotage, through paying into social security. Until your generation retires, it is also sitting on the majority of the real estate and the middle class jobs that younger generations would have needed access to in order to contribute more into the system. Your generation also benefited from the golden age of public financing for social programs the second world war, gaining inexpensive access to affordable housing and education programs that leveled the playing field enough for you to succeed. You benefited from the housing bubble and the internet bubble financially, beyond any sustainable level of economic growth, and were the last generation in north American history to have every day be a little better than the day before.

And then you threw it all away - threw your kids under a bus, and their kids, watching tuition skyrocket and saying nothing, watching the cost of housing skyrocket and saying nothing, hollering for tax cuts and cuts to social programs and repeatedly electing representatives who would ensure that no generation would ever again enjoy the privileges that you enjoyed - in particular affordable housing and education and a strong job market full of reliable middle class employment.

Your generation created this leaky vessel, out of ignorance, sloth, greed and a ludicrously rosy view of the benefits of unregulated capitalism and a weakened public sector. My generation and those that come after now has to clean up the biggest mess in human history because you folks dropped the ball - resource depletion, climate change and financial ruin. We didn't cause any of that because we have no power - we are the generation that still works at Starbucks after paying $70,000 for a degree because you lot shipped all the good jobs offshore to line your pockets. We are a disenfranchised generation, many of whom don't even bother to vote because every single candidate is pandering to you and doesn't give a **** about the problems we are facing, or the future problems we anticipate and are desperate to act on now for the benefit of future generations, like the global water and food shortage climate change and over- population are about to bring down on us.

I won't tolerate any whining from you, nor should anybody else. As you yourself said, lead, follow or get out of the way. 60% of Americans want universal health care, and last I checked your country was supposed to be a democracy.

 

[Alceste]

The Canadian Patients

I'm sure your system has drastically improved.

I would take anything you read from heritage with a grain of salt. They are a free market propaganda mill, as I'm sure you're aware.

I didn't bother to read it, but Canadians are very satisfied with our system. Over 80%. 30% of Americans think you should stick with what you've got. What does that tell you about whose system is better?