Why be against universal healthcare?

[Riverwolf]

Nothing is ever free. Someone has to pay the person giving the exam. Someone has to pay the utility bills to keep the place open. You could say the government should cover the cost, but aren't you back to sacrificing security for freedom.

Uh, how?

And what is universal health care but just another way of saying please take care of me?

Is there something wrong with asking somebody to help you when you are incapable of helping yourself?

 

[Riverwolf]

Lets say a family plan for health insurance costs 1,200 a month and people start living to be a hundred years old. That is 1.4 million dollars that someone in the family is going to have to pay or the government is going to pay.

Many people don't make 1/2 a million income in their life time.

Health care is a luxuary not an entitled right.

The Founding Fathers disagree, as the Declaration of Independence so eloquently puts.

We have a right to life, which means a right to health, and thus a right to health care. I hold this truth to be self-evident.

 

[Riverwolf]

Still, bottom line, someone has to pay for this care. How much of your income are you willing to have taken away from you to treat...umm...heroin addicts? Alcoholics? Chronic hypochondriacs?

As much as is necessary.

Where would it stop?

It would stop where it's no longer necessary.

 

[Riverwolf]

Has that happened in other countries with universal health care?

I'm waiting...

 

[jazzymom]

Lets say a family plan for health insurance costs 1,200 a month and people start living to be a hundred years old. That is 1.4 million dollars that someone in the family is going to have to pay or the government is going to pay.

Many people don't make 1/2 a million income in their life time.

Health care is a luxuary not an entitled right.

We pay for universal education so every child in this country has access to education.

I don't see the difference.

A right to healthcare and a right to education.

Why should a country make all citizens health care dependent on a health care provider that is a for profit company. Companies that already charge as much as your cost of 1200 per month. Not all companies pay for health care as a part of the employment package. Health care for the average citizen now is huge when companies don't pay for it. Fewer companies are providing it and those who lose it don't always have the ability to buy it privately either due to pre- existing conditions or to simple cost.

Health care is not a luxury as education is not a luxury but a right.

I submit that universal health care ought to be available to all citizens and on a sliding scale of what household incomes are.

 

[Riverwolf]

Oh, and one more thing. I'm on Kaiser right now. I have asperger's syndrome, and thus need mental health care.

News flash: Kaiser's mental health care SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Switching insurance companies is a huge hassle as I understand it.

I'm currently seeing a private therapist who is amazing, but my mom has to pay her 100 bucks per session.

With universal health care, that wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Copernicus]

If someone is going to invest money in an unhealthy meal, they can choose instead to invest that money in a healthier option. It's individual choice. It doesn't matter whether funding is coming through SNAP or a pay check.

I think that you are right about what people can do, and you probably understand that they won't necessarily do it, especially if they have no one to give them good advice and feedback on the state of their health.

Preventive health care is incredibly important. I'm not discounting the significance of the challenges posed when people do not have access to preventive health care, but, health ailments that are directly related to poor eating, smoking, alcoholism and drug use could ony partially, at best, be pegged on a person's lack of health care access.

That is true, and I'm glad you acknowledge how health care could play at least some role in improving the overall behavior of people regarding issues like smoking, eating harmful foods, and drinking alcohol. This is one reason why Obama's law makes preventive examinations included for free in coverage. If you improve people's health generally, then the general cost of health care becomes less.

I can't comment on the wait times at our health clinics in my community. But, I would imagine that regardless of a wait time, if a resource is available, it's worthy of exploration and consideration.

I agree. The problem is that free clinics are not widely available or known to everyone who could use them. Somebody has to pay for them, and we cannot depend purely on volunteers and rich donors to charity.

This doesn't negate the value of a free health clinic. Are you sure that practices across the nation won't be swamped by people desparate to get examinations once a more universal system of heatlh care is implemented?

I would love for everyone to have access to a free clinic. That would be a step towards universal health care. I do not fear that universal health care will overload our system. Far from it, I think it will relieve the burden on emergency rooms and give people treatment options that make health care more affordable. It has worked in other countries, so there is no reason why it can't work here.

 

[Reverend Rick]

The Founding Fathers disagree, as the Declaration of Independence so eloquently puts.

We have a right to life, which means a right to health, and thus a right to health care. I hold this truth to be self-evident.

That is a bunch of bull crap. I have the right to bear arms but I can't purchase a nuke.

 

[Reverend Rick]

There are people in this world that do not even have clean drinking water. If anything was a right and nessessary to survival, clean water would be a priority.

Another point I would like to make is, our right to life does not mean the finest minds must maintain our lives. Everyone is going to die some time. I hold this truth to be self evident.

 

[Riverwolf]

That is a bunch of bull crap. I have the right to bear arms but I can't purchase a nuke.

How is that in any way comparable?

Nukes didn't exist even in concept 200 years ago, but health care has existed since we first realized that things in nature can be used to heal, and certain people are better at healing than others.

In addition, nukes and arms in general are designed for killing. Health care is about saving lives.

Therefore, I call false analogy.

 

[Copernicus]

That is a bunch of bull crap. I have the right to bear arms but I can't purchase a nuke.

Are you bummed out about this? I thought that Riverwolf was talking about the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. At least in principle, we acknowledge that everyone has a right to life. That's why we have government insurance and welfare programs like Medicaid and food stamps. We have FEMA. Government-sponsored universal health care is just an extension of this attitude that has seemed to work very well in other countries. Now a lot of people are calling for its implementation here.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Health care is not a right. Sorry!

 

[Riverwolf]

There are people in this world that do not even have clean drinking water. If anything was a right and nessessary to survival, clean water would be a priority.

And so it is. That's also kind of beside the point.

Another point I would like to make is, our right to life does not mean the finest minds must maintain our lives. Everyone is going to die some time. I hold this truth to be self evident.

So, since everyone's going to die anyway, let's take that to the final conclusion: no health care whatsoever. I'm pretty sure you don't want that.

These "finest minds" you speak of signed up to help people. It's their self-imposed duty to maintain the lives of others, despite the inevitability of death. Without them, I'd already be dead from asthma alone, if not being outcasted due to asperger's, and you'd have died of old age some decades ago.

 

[Riverwolf]

Health care is not a right. Sorry!

Yes it is. Sorry!

 

[Falvlun]

Health care is not a right. Sorry!

Health care is a right. Sorry!

(Just all opinions, ain't it?)

 

[dawny0826]

Health care is not a right. Sorry!

It's not a right. I'm with you.

No one is entitled to professional services. There is a difference between being in need of and deserving of and being ENTITLED to.

 

[Reverend Rick]

That's why we have government insurance and welfare programs like Medicaid and food stamps. We have FEMA. Government-sponsored universal health care is just an extension of this attitude that has seemed to work very well in other countries. Now a lot of people are calling for its implementation here.

This attitude has caused many a country to be become insolvent. This "attitude" is going to bankrupt America.

When Obamacare is implemented, there will be a majority of folks who will be very unhappy with this new system that by the way has nothing to do with successful programs that provide people good care at affordable expense.

Not one country has a mandate to purchase something from a private held company except us. This is going to be a cluster truck and the most needy will still not be provided for.

 

[Falvlun]

It's not a right. I'm with you.

No one is entitled to professional services. There is a difference between being in need of and deserving of and being ENTITLED to.

So, do you think that emergency rooms should turn away the man with a heart attack who cannot pay for their services?

Knowing you, I highly doubt that you do. But how does this mesh with your claim that it is not a right? If it is not a right, if people shouldn't expect access to health care, then what would be wrong about turning away this man?

 

[Reverend Rick]

And so it is. That's also kind of beside the point.



So, since everyone's going to die anyway, let's take that to the final conclusion: no health care whatsoever. I'm pretty sure you don't want that.

These "finest minds" you speak of signed up to help people. It's their self-imposed duty to maintain the lives of others, despite the inevitability of death. Without them, I'd already be dead from asthma alone, if not being outcasted due to asperger's, and you'd have died of old age some decades ago.

My Grandfather was born in 1886 and lived till 1971. He never saw a doctor in his whole life. His daughter lived to be 99.

I may die tomorrow, but perhaps not. Oh by the way, I have battled cancer my whole adult life and have not had health insurance. I have paid over 560,000 in doctor bills.

No one helped me with a penny of that. Excuse me if I don't cry a river that your parents have to pay 100 dollars for you to see a specialist. Boo friggin Hoo.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

There are people in this world that do not even have clean drinking water. If anything was a right and nessessary to survival, clean water would be a priority.

Another point I would like to make is, our right to life does not mean the finest minds must maintain our lives. Everyone is going to die some time. I hold this truth to be self evident.

Health care is not a right. Sorry!

Let's ask ourselves a question: what are rights, and where do they come from? Our rights are simply an arbitrary set of things set up by arbitrary people for arbitrary reasons. They are not universal nor absolute. In other words, people define what our rights are. In this case, we're supposed to be a democracy, meaning that we ourselves define what our rights are.

With that being said, I'll go back to what I've said at least two or three times in this thread: universal health care is not as much a political issue as it is an ethical one. That, and people's well-being should not ever be placed in the hands of people who are only in it for the money. So, is health care, or rather, health, a right? It should be, and ethically so. And we have the power to make it so.

Now, what if good health isn't a right? Then I want my super-extra-jumbo-large sizes back at fast food restaurants. I don't want people telling me what I can and can't put in my body. I don't want people telling me what is and isn't dangerous, and what risks I should and shouldn't be able to take. That, and why stop with people who can't afford health care? What about the older generation? They don't serve any purpose, so let's just do away with them as well. And why squabble over abortion? Most people who get abortions are those who can't take care of a kid anyway, so let them get an abortion, and kill two birds with one stone.

The Buddha taught that a person needs four basic necessities to live: food, clothing, shelter, and medicine. These are things that, to my mind, are basic human rights and needs, and if someone can't afford one or more of these most basic needs, there needs to be somewhere they can go to have these needs met. The best way to do this is by the government. To deny a person one of these most basic needs, is to act in a most barbarous and unspiritual manner.