Why be against universal healthcare?

[jazzymom]

Universal healthcare just makes sense. I believe all Americans should have access to health care and giving the coverage to private for profit health care companies does not make good sense and it is not good for us.

They have one goal and that is to make money.

As a 20 something I went with out health care many years ago because I simply could not afford it. Now I have health care through my husbands job and I live in fear that if he would lose his job we would be just out of luck.
I have medical issues that would make it hard to get coverage.

Many Americans are in the boat of being uninsured because they have pre-existing conditions.

We should make universal health care for all a reality and I think we should look at the plans that other countries have.

I am tired of the minority of folks who yell the loudest being the ones that congress is afraid of.

 

[dawny0826]

Universal healthcare just makes sense. I believe all Americans should have access to health care and giving the coverage to private for profit health care companies does not make good sense and it is not good for us.

They have one goal and that is to make money.

As a 20 something I went with out health care many years ago because I simply could not afford it. Now I have health care through my husbands job and I live in fear that if he would lose his job we would be just out of luck.
I have medical issues that would make it hard to get coverage.

Many Americans are in the boat of being uninsured because they have pre-existing conditions.

We should make universal health care for all a reality and I think we should look at the plans that other countries have.

I am tired of the minority of folks who yell the loudest being the ones that congress is afraid of.

I understand you. But, have you ever thought that the minority of folks yelling the loudest might be the people paying for the system?

You can disagree with them, but, do they not have the right as Americans, to protest?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

BSM1,

Universal health care is not about saying "please take care of me", it's about taking care of ourselves properly, by pooling our resources together. Every-man-for-himself is not the only strategy for us to take care of ourselves and in this case, it's not the best strategy, either.

 

[jazzymom]

I understand you. But, have you ever thought that the minority of folks yelling the loudest might be the people paying for the system?

You can disagree with them, but, do they not have the right as Americans, to protest?

Your kidding right.......

I think the majority of folks are the ones who work and pay into the system.

I think the minority of folks are the uneducated folks who much of the time don't have the facts and end up believing what they are told by the fear mongers.

Yes they do have a right to protest. It would be nice if they protested from a base of knowledge.


Unfortunately they don't.

 

[Falvlun]

I understand you. But, have you ever thought that the minority of folks yelling the loudest might be the people paying for the system?

You can disagree with them, but, do they not have the right as Americans, to protest?

We are all paying for the system, dawny. And in fact, as has been shown, the middle class often pays a higher percentage of their income in taxes than the super rich do.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I understand you. But, have you ever thought that the minority of folks yelling the loudest might be the people paying for the system?

You can disagree with them, but, do they not have the right as Americans, to protest?

Everyone pays for the system, if not in dollars then in years of healthy living lost. We are talking about a country where taking your medicine, as prescribed by your doctor, is the #1 cause of accidental death. Everyone has the right to their opinion, too, but in this case, the loud faction on the Right has been totally misguided by the propaganda of the private health industry, and it is costing us dearly.

Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us | TIME.com

 

[Alceste]

I understand that our health care is overtly costly.

However, I'm thinking that our lower life expectancies are attributed more to our lifestyle choices than directly to our healthcare. Even the poor can usually access a basic health care service, be it preventive or otherwise. The challenge is in the cost.

We happen to be a nation of gluttony, drug use, alcoholism, and a variety of other unhealthy behavior. Infant mortality rates are higher in lower-income demographics, where overall lifestyles aren't typically the healthiest, health care specifics aside.

There are two facts to contend with. First, people who are not insured actually have a higher death rate than insured people. Studies have attributed that fact directly to a lack of preventative care. Secondly, studies have also attributed a small but significant higher death rate to insured Americans due to unnecessary life threatening procedures, like surgery. Those studies tend to conclude that many doctors, motivated by the temptation of higher profits, are prescribing the most costly treatment as opposed to the most effective.

So while some of your shorter life expectancy can be attributed to obesity in particular (much higher rates than Canada or the UK), some of it can also be attributed to under-treatment and over-treatment, which are both inevitable in a profit-driven system.

 

[Alceste]

Interesting you should mention that. In another talk show he stated that by the standards of the '70s or '80s he'd be considered a moderate Republican.
Frankly I'm baffled by claims from the right that he's a "liberal."

It's not baffling so much as depressing.

 

[dawny0826]

We are all paying for the system, dawny. And in fact, as has been shown, the middle class often pays a higher percentage of their income in taxes than the super rich do.

Yes, precisely. And this is where I'm at.

 

[dawny0826]

Your kidding right.......

I think the majority of folks are the ones who work and pay into the system.

I think the minority of folks are the uneducated folks who much of the time don't have the facts and end up believing what they are told by the fear mongers.

Yes they do have a right to protest. It would be nice if they protested from a base of knowledge.

Unfortunately they don't.

I'm thinking that you understand my point. Those paying into the system, whether they're the "minority" or "majority" that you're referencing, have the right to oppose universal health care if they don't like it.

It's not fair to assume that everyone opposed is uneducated.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

There are two facts to contend with. First, people who are not insured actually have a higher death rate than insured people. Studies have attributed that fact directly to a lack of preventative care. Secondly, studies have also attributed a small but significant higher death rate to insured Americans due to unnecessary life threatening procedures, like surgery. Those studies tend to conclude that many doctors, motivated by the temptation of higher profits, are prescribing the most costly treatment as opposed to the most effective.

So while some of your shorter life expectancy can be attributed to obesity in particular (much higher rates than Canada or the UK), some of it can also be attributed to under-treatment and over-treatment, which are both inevitable in a profit-driven system.

Exactly. This blame-the-victim mentality has been driven very hard into the brains of Americans. We deserve to be unhealthy because we're fat and we do drugs. Ironically, the drugs prescribed by doctors and taken as prescribed are the ones killing us. That tells you something about a profit-driven system.

 

[Alceste]

Nothing is ever free. Someone has to pay the person giving the exam. Someone has to pay the utility bills to keep the place open. You could say the government should cover the cost, but aren't you back to sacrificing security for freedom. And what is universal health care but just another way of saying please take care of me?

No, it's saying "let's take care of them". IOW, anybody who is sick, injured or incapacitated.

Allowing people to suffer unnecessarily is monstrous.

 

[jazzymom]

I'm thinking that you understand my point. Those paying into the system, whether they're the "minority" or "majority" that you're referencing, have the right to oppose universal health care if they don't like it.

It's not fair to assume that everyone opposed is uneducated.

You know from what I see and the protests that have occurred I don't see the majority of folks protesting from a base of knowledge.


I have seen Obama care compared to communism, and Obama compared to Hitler.
I have seen people with signs talking about death panels and telling folks that Obama care will kill granny.
Accusations of Obama care being un-American.

 

[dawny0826]

There are two facts to contend with. First, people who are not insured actually have a higher death rate than insured people. Studies have attributed that fact directly to a lack of preventative care. Secondly, studies have also attributed a small but significant higher death rate to insured Americans due to unnecessary life threatening procedures, like surgery. Those studies tend to conclude that many doctors, motivated by the temptation of higher profits, are prescribing the most costly treatment as opposed to the most effective.

So while some of your shorter life expectancy can be attributed to obesity in particular (much higher rates than Canada or the UK), some of it can also be attributed to under-treatment and over-treatment, which are both inevitable in a profit-driven system.

Yes, I know.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Lets say a family plan for health insurance costs 1,200 a month and people start living to be a hundred years old. That is 1.4 million dollars that someone in the family is going to have to pay or the government is going to pay.

Many people don't make 1/2 a million income in their life time.

Health care is a luxuary not an entitled right.

 

[BSM1]

No, it's saying "let's take care of them". IOW, anybody who is sick, injured or incapacitated.

Allowing people to suffer unnecessarily is monstrous.

Still, bottom line, someone has to pay for this care. How much of your income are you willing to have taken away from you to treat...umm...heroin addicts? Alcoholics? Chronic hypochondriacs? Where would it stop?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Should we just let people die, just because they can't afford insurance? Is that natural selection at work? "Well, it's his fault he couldn't afford insurance, so he must have deserved to die." Again, health care is not a political issue as much as it an ethical one. Health care should not, at all, under any circumstances, be a business. If it's going to be run as a business, then people who can't afford health insurance should have help in order to, you know, live. I don't see the issue with this.

Thank god for capitalism, though, to show us the light, that money is more important than health, and that those who can't afford basic necessities, well, that's just nature's way of saying they don't deserve to live.

 

[Alceste]

I'm thinking that you understand my point. Those paying into the system, whether they're the "minority" or "majority" that you're referencing, have the right to oppose universal health care if they don't like it.

It's not fair to assume that everyone opposed is uneducated.

I have also observed that everyone who opposes it is misinformed about what universal health care means and ignorant of a great many facts, such as the fact that a universal system cuts costs in half. It might be uncomfortable, but you yourself started out worrying about cost and quality, which illustrates that you must have been unaware Americans have much worse outcomes and far higher costs than the rest of the developed world.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Lets say a family plan for health insurance costs 1,200 a month and people start living to be a hundred years old. That is 1.4 million dollars that someone in the family is going to have to pay or the government is going to pay.

Many people don't make 1/2 a million income in their life time.

Health care is a luxuary not an entitled right.

Rick you don't get it. A public system does not even try to provide endless coverage for end-of-life care. It tries to provide adequate coverage for basic care, which everyone deserves **(edit: and which we can afford; in fact, we can't afford not to do it)***. If you want to go beyond basic care and preserve your brain in a jar indefinitely then you will have to pay for it yourself, even in a public system.

That's why the Affordable Care Act had a provision to provide coverage for Medicare patients who consult with their doctor on end-of-life issues. Most people don't want to be kept alive forever. Discussing these options beforehand with a doctor can prevent grieving families from wasting big money on extending grandma's misery for a few weeks. This provision was struck out of the bill at the last minute, do you know why? Because Sarah Palin called it "government death panels" and many Americans freaked out.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Still, bottom line, someone has to pay for this care. How much of your income are you willing to have taken away from you to treat...umm...heroin addicts? Alcoholics? Chronic hypochondriacs? Where would it stop?

This problem is addressed in a public system exactly the way it is addressed by private health insurance plans. You have a certain amount of coverage. If you rack up medical bills which exceed your coverage, you have to pay the difference out of pocket. The difference is that public health insurance can be far more efficient, because (1) it is not-for-profit, (2) it can pool much larger resources together, (3) it is not tied to employers.