Why be against universal healthcare?

[Copernicus]

I can so see the importance in certain taxes, but I don't understand how healthcare taxes are necessary at all. If there were no such thing as tax, I'd definitely donate some amount of my money to those who need it. But having a threat to pay doesn't influence me one bit.

They are necessary if the goal of a government is to ensure its citizens a right to basic health care coverage. If that is not a goal, then they are unnecessary. If you think that voluntary charity programs can substitute for tax-supported welfare programs in a complex society, I think you don't really understand how human nature works. Not everyone may feel as generous as you do, and you may not always feel as generous as you do now, when those charity payments are imaginary.

Now, now, now, the road argument has been explained, no need to resurrect it

Oh, I think that it is necessary to resurrect it every time someone starts complaining about taxes. Taxes are a burden, but the amount of money we give up in taxes does not necessarily translate into some specific program that the government has in place. Just because we don't build a battleship, that doesn't mean we'll spend more money on education. When we start up a lottery to help pay for education, legislators can then reduce the amount of general revenue that goes into education by the amount of lottery revenue. They use the money left over for special projects that meet other priorities.

 

[Riverwolf]

Don't you have health insurance?

Nope. Not my own. I'm on my mother's plan, which expires on my next birthday.

Yet I'm in a better position than the millions without it, and who are financially incapable of getting it.

 

[Riverwolf]

What's unfair is that he's paying taxes and supporting programs that he may not agree with and has no political voice as of yet, to oppose.

Just like the rest of us, in terms of paying for things we don't agree with, and virtually have no voice to oppose.

 

[Riverwolf]

Well, if you call independence selfish then yes., and united we stand together, but we use our own two legs to walk as a country of independence.

Sorry, you've been lied to, as we all have. We're not a country of independence, and have never truly been. What was touted as "independence" was never meant to stand on its own, but specifically referred to "independence from the British Crown."

You want to be truly independent, standing on your own two legs to live? Go live in the woods, hunt and gather your own food, build your own shelter using only the components you find lying around. That's true independence.

None of us, who have been spoiled by the luxuries of civilization, can do that. So, we're not truly independent, but automatically dependent on the work of others. We depend on others for food, medicine, shelter, etc in the first place.

Even if you grow your own food, you depend on others to supply the initial seeds, and the knowledge of how to do it properly. Build your own house? You're dependent on others to supply the components and tools, as well as the knowledge of how to build a house to code, and safely.

 

[Copernicus]

Nope. Not my own. I'm on my mother's plan, which expires on my next birthday.

Yet I'm in a better position than the millions without it, and who are financially incapable of getting it.

It is too bad that the PPACA hasn't really come into full force yet. I hate that law for its complexity and the fact that insurance lobbyists basically ruined all the cost-cutting measures that should have gone into it. On the other hand, I hate the status quo even worse.

Having just come off of a corporate health insurance program and onto Medicare, I have to say that I am not very impressed by it. It is still bogged down by inefficiencies and stupid policies. I am paying more for health care now than I ever was in the past, but that is because part of the compensation I got while working was the health insurance, an "income" that was not very visible as such to me. Now that my income is reduced and I have to pay monthly Medicare and supplemental insurance (over $300 out of pocket even if I don't use it), the cost seems more burdensome. And I lost dental care and some other benefits, as well. I can see why people who did not have the advantage of a very good corporate health plan love Medicare, but I would rather that I paid that monthly fee fully through taxes (as I did over the past decades, when it was a payroll tax). And dealing with the Medicare bureaucracy sucks almost as much as dealing with private health insurers and providers. At least my provider has a pretty good idea of what Medicare covers. When they had to deal with Blue Cross/Blue Shield, it was always a craps shoot on what they covered and what they thought they could get away with not covering.

 

[Riverwolf]

I also present the statement from the Declaration of Independence, which is supposed to be what America is all about; America's "true" constitution, if you will (bracketed statements are my own).

"We hold these truths to be self evident that all men [women, and children] are created equal, [in] that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..." Denying anybody needed aid violates the rights to life and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[Riverwolf]

It is too bad that the PPACA hasn't really come into full force yet. I hate that law for its complexity and the fact that insurance lobbyists basically ruined all the cost-cutting measures that should have gone into it. On the other hand, I hate the status quo even worse.

Having just come off of a corporate health insurance program and onto Medicare, I have to say that I am not very impressed by it. It is still bogged down by inefficiencies and stupid policies. I am paying more for health care now than I ever was in the past, but that is because part of the compensation I got while working was the health insurance, an "income" that was not very visible as such to me. Now that my income is reduced and I have to pay monthly Medicare and supplemental insurance (over $300 out of pocket even if I don't use it), the cost seems more burdensome. And I lost dental care and some other benefits, as well. I can see why people who did not have the advantage of a very good corporate health plan love Medicare, but I would rather that I paid that monthly fee fully through taxes (as I did over the past decades, when it was a payroll tax).

...I'm sorry, but all of that flew right over my head. :sorry1:

 

[Copernicus]

...I'm sorry, but all of that flew right over my head. :sorry1:

PPACA = Obamacare

 

[The Sum of Awe]

They are necessary if the goal of a government is to ensure its citizens a right to basic health care coverage. If that is not a goal, then they are unnecessary. If you think that voluntary charity programs can substitute for tax-supported welfare programs in a complex society, I think you don't really understand how human nature works. Not everyone may feel as generous as you do, and you may not always feel as generous as you do now, when those charity payments are imaginary.

It's already is ensured if its citizens do what they are supposed to.

Oh, I think that it is necessary to resurrect it every time someone starts complaining about taxes. Taxes are a burden, but the amount of money we give up in taxes does not necessarily translate into some specific program that the government has in place. Just because we don't build a battleship, that doesn't mean we'll spend more money on education. When we start up a lottery to help pay for education, legislators can then reduce the amount of general revenue that goes into education by the amount of lottery revenue. They use the money left over for special projects that meet other priorities.

Nobody here complained about taxes.

 

[Copernicus]

It's already is ensured if its citizens do what they are supposed to.

Nobody here complained about taxes.

The complaint was about taxes going to pay for policies that an individual (specifically, you) did not support.

 

[Riverwolf]

PPACA = Obamacare

Gotcha.

The way I see it, ANY medical insurance is better than none. I'm not too picky when it comes to that.

 

[Alceste]

So you do have a discretion on what kinds of dependency qualify as selfishness or greedy? Assuming that, even your question was a whole different can of worms as well, that you find it unjust that minors pay tax? Just assuming that of course.

You're habit of framing this as an issue of "taking without paying", iow being dependent on others, is irrational and unsupported by the facts of how universal health care actually works.

Here is how it actually works:

1. We all pay for the services.
2. We all use the services.
3. We are not charged at the point of services.

Since nobody in Canada is forced to deal with private insurance companies or shoulder
enormous amounts of debt to pay for health services, we are MORE free and independent than Americans, at least when it comes to health care. We are not dependent on the profit margins and quotas of private health insurance companies.

I know you're feeling pretty proud of yourself, having your first job and making a bit of money. That's good and admirable, and it feels great to be financially independent. But under your health care system, one serious injury or illness could put an end to all that. However much you're earning, it's not enough to pay for cancer treatment or a heart transplant, and in all likelihood it will NEVER be enough.

When you are not on your parents' plan any more and have to buy your own health insurance, I think you are in for a shock. Some folks here are paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars a month. Are you earning enough to cover that kind of expense?

We don't pay that fee in Canada. At all. Ever. We have more money in our pockets that we can use for things that are genuine symbols of independence, like property, travel, vehicles, etc.

 

[Reverend Rick]

But it wasn't always established. Weren't all the world's universal systems developed after WWII? Are Americans peculiarly incapable of change?

Actually we already have two already established universal systems, a socialized Beveridge-style system in the VA and a Private NHI-style system in Medicare.
The infrastructure is already in place. It would be easier to extend Medicare universally than it was for Canada to start from scratch in each province.

Damn Seyorni, we agree for once. Yes, I am against socialised medicine BUT if we are going down that road, lets do it right. It would be too easy to extend medicare and everyone would be covered.

The affordable health care act does not cover everyone and the lowest of low still will not have it and most likely need it the most. Fining people who do not pay and withholding health care from them is not the brightest system by far.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Honestly, this argument about doctor and nurse workload doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying "we don't have time to change everyone's oil! We're too busy rebuilding all these blown engines!" Well, maybe if you were changing more people's oil, you wouldn't have as many blown engines to fix.

In a perfect world, you would be right. The thing is the doctor tells the alcoholic to quit drinking or the fat person to lose weight or you need to quit smoking. They tie up the office and make folks wait longer with no net effect.

 

[Reverend Rick]

They won't take advantage of the free health care that's available to them, but will go put themselves in a worse off financial situation by walking down to the local supermarket to buy a twelve pack, a pack of cigarettes and a bucket of fried chicken.

This is exactly what I did this evening.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

The complaint was about taxes going to pay for policies that an individual (specifically, you) did not support.

I never said I didn't support it, I just said it's ultimately pointless. I never complained about it, just replied to people complaining about my opinion.

 

[Alceste]

In a perfect world, you would be right. The thing is the doctor tells the alcoholic to quit drinking or the fat person to lose weight or you need to quit smoking. They tie up the office and make folks wait longer with no net effect.

It's more than that, actually. A Canadian doctor would be an active partner in your effort to quit smoking or lose weight, providing information and access to free nicotine replacement therapies, consultations with nutritionists or testing for allergies that cause inflammation, glandular or genetic disorders that would cause weight gain, etc. the most common problem with controlling weight for people with otherwise healthy habits is thyroid activity (too much or too little), and those conditions are both manageable with the help of a doctor.

Yes, they will all give you heck if you smoke or if you're too fat. But that's not the beginning and end of preventative medicine.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Ooh, interesting thought. Do you think that anyone under the age of 18 shouldn't have to pay taxes?

I'm totally on board with that. That's definitely "taxation without representation".

You make a good point Falvlun, They should not be taxed or should be allowed to vote.

Just as if you don't pay taxes you should not get to vote either.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

You're habit of framing this as an issue of "taking without paying", iow being dependent on others, is irrational and unsupported by the facts of how universal health care actually works.

Here is how it actually works:

1. We all pay for the services.
2. We all use the services.
3. We are not charged at the point of services.

I was looking more at a comment previously mentioned, those who don't use the services that much anyways. What about them? Their money goes down the drain.

Since nobody in Canada is forced to deal with private insurance companies or shoulder
enormous amounts of debt to pay for health services, we are MORE free and independent than Americans, at least when it comes to health care. We are not dependent on the profit margins and quotas of private health insurance companies.

Maybe you think that, but have you ever compared it?

I know you're feeling pretty proud of yourself, having your first job and making a bit of money. That's good and admirable, and it feels great to be financially independent. But under your health care system, one serious injury or illness could put an end to all that. However much you're earning, it's not enough to pay for cancer treatment or a heart transplant, and in all likelihood it will NEVER be enough.

My family has health insurance

When you are not on your parents' plan any more and have to buy your own health insurance, I think you are in for a shock. Some folks here are paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars a month. Are you earning enough to cover that kind of expense?

Not at the moment, which is why I plan on graduating to get a great paying job and spend as little as I can of what I'm earning now for the meantime between my graduation and a good paying job.

We don't pay that fee in Canada. At all. Ever. We have more money in our pockets that we can use for things that are genuine symbols of independence, like property, travel, vehicles, etc.

But you do pay it, only it's little at a time so that you cannot see that the fee exists.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Did anyone consider if no one had health insurance, medical expenses would have to fall?

This is why vets and dentists are more affordable.

The expense of an MRI would tumble.