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Why Believe Jesus Never Had Sex?

ecco

Veteran Member
Where do you draw the line between human nature and a Nature capable of creating self-aware beings? Are we not also Nature?
Yes, we are part of nature. Yes, we are a product of natural forces. No, nature did not create us. To use "create" in that context is as nonsensical as believing rocks can think.

You may soon realize that I don't represent the common (and what I might call childish) view of the Bible as a story of a Good God trying to discipline his Bad Children into being good. But I do represent what I think the Bible should be understood to be teaching...hence I identify in all sincerity as a Christian. I don't think the author's of the Bible primarily wanted to write such a Bible and I don't think that God's Word is such.

What they did write was an open and honest look at what it really is like to live in (God's creation) reality.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, it seems like your opinion is based on wishful thinking more than anything factual. The OT authors cobbled together a bunch of myths. Some of these myths were creation stories, some were morality stories, some were stories about maintaining health.

I would argue that personification is not just an essential psychological tool for relating to people but through our social cognitive capabilities we can creatively negotiate the less personal aspects of our reality especially when those aspects severely challenge our sense of well-being or even our perception for the chances of survival much less thriving.

Until the science of psychology is ready to take over (which it is not), we will need stories/literature to guide us through life's personal difficulties.
Perhaps. But I don't want to base my life on the views of ancient people who were, by today's standards, very ignorant.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I have already begin doing what you asked by listing several categories of suffering that results from promiscuity. Do you remember what they were?​

1. Adultery
2. Divorce
3. Increased spread rate of STDs
4. Higher abortion rates
5. Destruction of the traditional family unit
6. Sexual violence
7. Rape
8. Unplanned pregnancy
9. Etc......
Just so we are clear...
pro·mis·cu·ous​
prəˈmiskyo͞oəs/
adjective
1.
derogatory
having or characterized by many transient sexual relationships.​

Problems in a marriage include poor sexual relationships, money problems, dissatisfaction with the family situation. These lead to adultery and divorce. Married people who commit adultery mostly do so with just one other person.

Unwanted pregnancies, especially among unmarried teens, is usually the result of relationships with just one or two people. Promiscuous females have no desire to get pregnant, they take steps to prevent it.

Promiscuous people enjoy sex with many people. Rape (sexual violence) is about asserting power not about enjoyment.

Your list of eight named items is really only six different items. Of those six, only one (#3) has any validity.

Now perhaps you can understand why I objected to your original characterization and even your watered down "clarifications".
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Just so we are clear...
pro·mis·cu·ous​
prəˈmiskyo͞oəs/
adjective
1.
derogatory
having or characterized by many transient sexual relationships.​
I accept this definition.
Problems in a marriage include poor sexual relationships, money problems, dissatisfaction with the family situation. These lead to adultery and divorce. Married people who commit adultery mostly do so with just one other person.
I did not say that all the problems a marriage can have are caused by promiscuity. I said that promiscuity can cause problems in a marriage.

Unwanted pregnancies, especially among unmarried teens, is usually the result of relationships with just one or two people. Promiscuous females have no desire to get pregnant, they take steps to prevent it.
Good Lord. Are you saying that more sex causes less pregnancy? Wow!!!! The reason teens
(which I did not limit to teens) have few partners is that they have not been sexual active for that long. pregnancy. Your really tripping me out.

Promiscuous people enjoy sex with many people. Rape (sexual violence) is about asserting power not about enjoyment.
What? Rape is about enjoyment for at least one of the people involved anyway. People enjoy sex, power, and violence. This is a distinction that makes no difference.

Your list of eight named items is really only six different items. Of those six, only one (#3) has any validity.
That is not true but even if you limited it to the remaining six they still produce a lot of misery. In reality all my categories remain intact.

Now perhaps you can understand why I objected to your original characterization and even your watered down "clarifications".
No I do not, you arguments here are among the strangest I have ever seen in over 14000 debates. I originally thought you were a very exacting poster but now I am having doubts. You seem to be defending promiscuity (why would anyone even bother) at all costs.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
So Adam and Eve were not flawed, as you were suggesting earlier. Thank you.
You can't prove the new assertions either.

It can be demonstrated, definitively, that the human race has not come to be, from a single breeding pair.

Thus? Both the Adam and Eve tales never happened, and neither did Noah's little incestuous band.
 
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Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I don't believe in hell. There is no hell in the Bible except the place we all go to....the grave. The "threat" is nothing more sinister than telling you that you will sleep and never wake up.....dreadful, isn't it! God has no purpose in keeping opposers alive only to torture them forever......Why would he bother? He has more important things to do, frankly..

So you are now saying the bible is false? Okay. I see that as progress: You are literally tossing out a large swath of the bible, here. But that's fine-- you kinda have to Cherry Pick the bible, or else you'd quickly be arrested for following it!

Think of life like the flame of a candle.....it can be snuffed out and left in the dark....or it can be relit to continue illuminating the darkness. God is the one who determines who shines again, based on what kind of person we have proven ourselves to be in this life. We are all judged on who we really are.....who we make ourselves to be, regardless of our circumstances. God will not interfere with that....he will not force us to be someone we are not.

If you don't want him in your life....your wish will be granted. But it isn't God who will disappear. You see, this is God's earth to do with as he pleases....we either want to be part of his plans for the future....or we don't. It's our choice.
.

Better by far to be simply ended, than to be a sycophant stroking the massively over-inflated ego of the bible god forever-- a more hellish existence I cannot imagine.

You seem to have based all your "UNbelief" on assumptions about God, not reality. That's your choice of course....but misunderstanding and misinterpretation can make people react to what they "assume" rather than what they "know". I see that in many responses in these forums. It saddens me. :(

Nope. I only go by what is written in the bible-- not what I pretend it "says"...
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Yyeeeaahhhh... that’s too bad. There are so many good, decent, honest, Justice-oriented progressive ministers out there. It’s too bad the others ruin it for everyone.


The fact that there are any at all? Rather tells me that there isn't any over-arching power that could put a stop to it....

.... for if there were? It's complacent in the crimes for allowing them to happen at all.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Actually, they don't hand the bible to kids and tell them to read it. Instead they indoctrinate children with the "nice" stories and shield them from all the "hideous, misogynist, murder-filled" stories.

Yep. And it's only been in the last few hundred years, that people could even read it for themselves, what with literacy being a luxary for so very long.

Even after the Protestant Reformation, when the bible was finally translated from Latin (which only a few could read) into common language, that people even got to read the entire ugly thing for themselves.

I do not think it's a coincidence that the Renaissance came along when that happened...
 

ecco

Veteran Member
several categories of suffering that results from promiscuity
I did not say that all the problems a marriage can have are caused by promiscuity. I said that promiscuity can cause problems in a marriage.

No, that is not what you said. You said that suffering results from promiscuity. Cause and effect. I clearly showed that problems in marriage are primarily caused by things other than promiscuity.

If you meant to say "Promiscuity may, in some few cases, contribute to marital problems", then that is what you should have said. I would not have disagreed with that. It seems your argument gets weaker and weaker with every revision. You went from "root of all" to "can cause".

Good Lord. Are you saying that more sex causes less pregnancy? Wow!!!!
Clearly that is not what I said. I said that promiscuous females are knowledgeable enough to prevent themselves from accidentally getting pregnant.

That you have to intentionally mis-represent my argument is a clear indication of the weakness of your own argument.




The reason teens
(which I did not limit to teens) have few partners is that they have not been sexual active for that long. pregnancy. Your really tripping me out.
Calm down. Take a deep breath. Try to write a paragraph that makes sense.

What? Rape is about enjoyment for at least one of the people involved anyway. People enjoy sex, power, and violence. This is a distinction that makes no difference.

Most rape is about asserting power. Don't take my word for, look it up. Furthermore, there is no evidence to show that promiscuous men need to use rape to have sex.

That is not true but even if you limited it to the remaining six they still produce a lot of misery. In reality all my categories remain intact.
Nonsense. There is little distinction between rape and sexual violence. There is little distinction between divorce and family disruption.

More important, you have not shown, for any of the categories, that promiscuity is the cause. All you have done is make unsubstantiated assertions.

No I do not, you arguments here are among the strangest I have ever seen in over 14000 debates. I originally thought you were a very exacting poster but now I am having doubts. You seem to be defending promiscuity (why would anyone even bother) at all costs.
This isn't about my defending promiscuity. It's about showing that your assertions about promiscuity, even your watered down version, is without merit.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The fact that there are any at all? Rather tells me that there isn't any over-arching power that could put a stop to it....

.... for if there were? It's complacent in the crimes for allowing them to happen at all.
Yes, and lawyers misrepresent clients and doctors commit malpractice and kill people and teachers diddle students in the cloak room and and and and and. But there are still damn good lawyers, doctors and teachers out there who are doing good things. It’s not the profession that’s poisoned, it’s the propensity of human beings to be crappy.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Yes, we are part of nature. Yes, we are a product of natural forces. No, nature did not create us. To use "create" in that context is as nonsensical as believing rocks can think.



You are entitled to your opinion. However, it seems like your opinion is based on wishful thinking more than anything factual. The OT authors cobbled together a bunch of myths. Some of these myths were creation stories, some were morality stories, some were stories about maintaining health.

Perhaps. But I don't want to base my life on the views of ancient people who were, by today's standards, very ignorant.

Anytime we consider the possibilities and give expression to them we are using what might be derided as "wishful thinking". It is also called imagination. Without imagination, where would humanity be as a species?

So, so many people see the Bible and its teachings as something that must be approached literally. Instead I would approach it as literature. One can, through the imagination, come to such deep and inspirational understandings of what it means to be alive in this world that one cherishes forever that literary work. Have you ever read any work of fiction that made you feel that way? Ever see a movie that taught you about yourself?

I have often called for the Bible to be re-submitted to the creative community of writers out of which it has arisen so that it can be extended/renewed vigorously. Hopefully that would include adding in the perspective of modern science. Other extensive mythic works in our movie theaters and TV screens show something of how this might be done. Star Trek comes to mind as an example. The Matrix is perhaps closer to the apocalyptic vision...etc.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Yes, and lawyers misrepresent clients and doctors commit malpractice and kill people and teachers diddle students in the cloak room and and and and and. But there are still damn good lawyers, doctors and teachers out there who are doing good things. It’s not the profession that’s poisoned, it’s the propensity of human beings to be crappy.

Yes-- except for this one glaring difference.

None of the professions you mention, claim to be Speaker For God. Whereas all ministers do-- and many, claim to be exclusive Speakers For God (at least their version of religion).

That sets them far apart from all the rest; but your lament is really a Red Herring, and in no way addresses my criticism:

If there really is a god who interferes with human activity? And if this god truly is a benevolent and caring entity?

Then, the fact that this entity completely and entirely fails to curb the worst excesses from those who claim to speak for it, and represent it's interests among humans?

Tells me it either doesn't care, or is too weak to interfere, or simply doesn't exist in the first place.

Or worse: Maliciously allows the evil acts to proceed...

The least damaging of all the possible scenarios I listed, is 'not existing'.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Yes-- except for this one glaring difference.

None of the professions you mention, claim to be Speaker For God. Whereas all ministers do-- and many, claim to be exclusive Speakers For God (at least their version of religion).

That sets them far apart from all the rest; but your lament is really a Red Herring, and in no way addresses my criticism:

If there really is a god who interferes with human activity? And if this god truly is a benevolent and caring entity?

Then, the fact that this entity completely and entirely fails to curb the worst excesses from those who claim to speak for it, and represent it's interests among humans?

Tells me it either doesn't care, or is too weak to interfere, or simply doesn't exist in the first place.

Or worse: Maliciously allows the evil acts to proceed...

The least damaging of all the possible scenarios I listed, is 'not existing'.

Yes, historically claiming a spiritual morality seems to have cause great evil in the world. Perhaps humility and an acknowledgment of secular morality would improve matters greatly. Treating all things secular as evil is one of Satan's cleverest seductions I think.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Whereas all ministers do-- and many, claim to be exclusive Speakers For God (at least their version of religion).
No they don’t. Prophets claim to speak for God. Some clergy may make that claim — most do not.

That sets them far apart from all the rest; but your lament is really a Red Herring, and in no way addresses my criticism
Yes I did. Human beings have a propensity to be crappy. No one with any credibility fosters the idea that human beings are God’s puppets. This is all on us.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
So, so many people see the Bible and its teachings as something that must be approached literally. Instead I would approach it as literature. One can, through the imagination, come to such deep and inspirational understandings of what it means to be alive in this world that one cherishes forever that literary work.

I find nothing in the Bible that creates any "deep and inspirational understandings of what it means to be alive in this world ".

Quite the contrary. I find vengeance and brutality and misogyny. Nothing inspirational there at all. Nothing to make me want to cherish, even for a moment, that literary work.


Ever see a movie that taught you about yourself?
The bible sure hasn't taught me anything about myself except that I came to realize, at an early age, that gods were made up.




I have often called for the Bible to be re-submitted to the creative community of writers out of which it has arisen so that it can be extended/renewed vigorously. Hopefully that would include adding in the perspective of modern science.

Adding any perspective of modern science would make the bible even more self-contradictory than it already is.


Other extensive mythic works in our movie theaters and TV screens show something of how this might be done. Star Trek comes to mind as an example. The Matrix is perhaps closer to the apocalyptic vision...etc.
The bible, Star Trek and The Matrix, three works of fiction. The latter two have much more believable plot lines than the former.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist


No, that is not what you said. You said that suffering results from promiscuity. Cause and effect. I clearly showed that problems in marriage are primarily caused by things other than promiscuity.
I did not even suggest that every problem a marriage may have is caused by promiscuity. That doesn't make any sense. I said that promiscuity does cause suffering which is a statement of fact.

If you meant to say "Promiscuity may, in some few cases, contribute to marital problems", then that is what you should have said. I would not have disagreed with that. It seems your argument gets weaker and weaker with every revision. You went from "root of all" to "can cause".
I never even hinted that promiscuity always causes suffering, again that is simply incoherent. You keep misunderstanding my most simplistic statements. My argument has not changed, you just seem not to understand it.

My core claim is that promiscuity causes a lot of suffering. This fact is inescapable which is probably why your trying to distort everything I say.


Clearly that is not what I said. I said that promiscuous females are knowledgeable enough to prevent themselves from accidentally getting pregnant.
Incorrect, in many cases promiscuous women have unplanned pregnancies. Your the one who keeps making mistaken blanket claims, not me.

That you have to intentionally mis-represent my argument is a clear indication of the weakness of your own argument.
Wow, talk about hypocrisy.


Calm down. Take a deep breath. Try to write a paragraph that makes sense.
If I was any calmer I would be unconscious.



Most rape is about asserting power. Don't take my word for, look it up. Furthermore, there is no evidence to show that promiscuous men need to use rape to have sex.
Most rape is about gratifying lust or desire. Power is just one aspect of a very complicated issue of which promiscuity is another.

Nonsense. There is little distinction between rape and sexual violence. There is little distinction between divorce and family disruption.
There is enough of a difference so that both categories exists separately in moral statistics. Rape is to have sex with an unwilling partner whereas sexual violence is the intent to harm in addition to having sex.

More important, you have not shown, for any of the categories, that promiscuity is the cause. All you have done is make unsubstantiated assertions.
You have already said that promiscuity results in at least 6 of the 8 categories I have given. You invalidated your own claim here. Promiscuity results in the things I mentioned (all 8 +) before, it isn't merely incidental. If you can't admit something this self evident I don't hold out much hope for this discussion.


This isn't about my defending promiscuity. It's about showing that your assertions about promiscuity, even your watered down version, is without merit.
Trying to invalidate my condemnation of promiscuity is to defend it. This is absurd. If you can't admit that promiscuity leads to the spread of STDs, etc... then you might as well close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears, and yell lalalalalalalal. Utterly ridiculous. Bias this strong is very rare even in a debate forum.
 
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