Why Believe Jesus Never Had Sex?

[nPeace]

Sorry, I've read all the scriptures I care to many years ago. That's nice you like to post them for yourself though. If that is what it takes for you to be moral and ethical, I think it's a good idea for you to continue.

And I don't do "saved" either anymore. Of all the silly ideas religion has come up with, that is near the top. Saved from what? Yourselves is my guess. Hope you are able to work that out some day so you can live what you have left of your life in peace and contentment instead of fear and self-loathing. Best wishes.

Jehovah is the Spirit, and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.
There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love. As for us, we love, because he first loved us.

I think religion can appear to be a silly idea when one doesn't have either of these, and therefore don't experience what true Christians do.
I have seen people go away from the spirit, and return - whether a few years or many years after. They seem happy that after throwing away their freedom for slavery in this world, they were still allowed the opportunity to regain their freedom.

All I see are happy people, serving Jehovah. Not out of fear, but out of love, and the joy is abundant and evident.

I'm sorry you are missing out on it, but the choice was put before us.
I think it's good we get to choose, because we can't complain about our rewards afterwards.

As long as the door remains opened, I believe you are welcomed.

 

[Trailblazer]

We do sun ourselves on beaches, in-between trying to understand the minds of believers and imparting what wisdom we have managed to obtain on some of the downfalls of living a life based on "belief".

Such as never having the time or desire to enjoy the reality of this actual life before it's too late. And the practical side such as how belief systems can often cause bigotry and arrogance as well as divisiveness in general between neighbors on the same planet.

Some atheists I'm certain, just love to argue period as is evidenced by the endless and fruitless go rounds with believers.

Most atheists I think, don't find religions necessary to live a moral, ethical, practical or politically and socially involved life. Some might engage believers to try to understand why they feel they cannot live moral or ethical lives without the aid of a god looking over their shoulders. Or why feel they are not of any worth or value unless they are worshipping their particular god and belong to the "right" religion. I suppose in some sense if they need their beliefs in order to be moral and ethical or to feel any self-worth, it's best for society they are contained by those beliefs and not let loose to act out what they otherwise can't control on their own.

But for many practical reasons such as involvement in implementing fair and just policies for all humans equally and working to understand science for the sake of ecosystems, atheists would like to see less belief and talk and more involved action. In order for that to happen they choose religious platforms to make their cases.

I'm sure there are other reasons atheists talk to believers about religion but I can bet you all the tea in China it's not because they are looking for God. Most have already been there and done that. It is kind of sad to see so much wasted time and effort by some believers trying to convince atheists to see the 'right' light. Of course equally sad if some atheists really have no life other than trying to make believers see their light . It would be better to take some of that free time and go sunning on a beach or to smell the roses before they die. Very few if any people change their minds after spending half a lifetime finding the answers they have found.

This atheist does have other things to do surrounding the reality of this moment. But it is interesting to drop in once in a while to see people dancing around the circle and maybe make a comment. What do you think? Maybe I'm just lazy and arrogant because I don't spend my life believing or searching for "God"?

See you next time. The beach is calling.

Good to see you again...
I want to take some time to answer this post because there are some things I want to say, but I do not have the time or proper composure tonight... Probably tomorrow I will answer it. I hope you come around and check posts but I understand that you have other things to do.

 

[Muffled]

Yes, historically claiming a spiritual morality seems to have cause great evil in the world. Perhaps humility and an acknowledgment of secular morality would improve matters greatly. Treating all things secular as evil is one of Satan's cleverest seductions I think.

I believe secular morality that is sinful ought to be viewed as sinful and secular morality that is righteous ought to be viewed as righteous.

 

[Muffled]

... of lack of proper hospitality.

I believe that is nonsense. Offering up people for gang banging is not reasonable to expect as hospitality.

 

[sojourner]

I believe that is nonsense. Offering up people for gang banging is not reasonable to expect as hospitality.

Why do you think the hospitality was poor?

 

[Trailblazer]

We do sun ourselves on beaches, in-between trying to understand the minds of believers and imparting what wisdom we have managed to obtain on some of the downfalls of living a life based on "belief".

Such as never having the time or desire to enjoy the reality of this actual life before it's too late. And the practical side such as how belief systems can often cause bigotry and arrogance as well as divisiveness in general between neighbors on the same planet.

Indeed, you atheists have a lot to impart. We believers need to listen to your perspectives. It is unhealthy to be mired in our beliefs all the time and not look at what is outside of them.

I can certainly agree that belief systems can often cause bigotry and arrogance as well as divisiveness in general between neighbors on the same planet. This is against everything the Baha’i Faith teaches, which is that we are all one people, and that includes nonbelievers.

From what I have seen of believers, most of them enjoy life just as much as nonbelievers, so just having a belief has not precluded them living life to its fullest. They get married and have children, go to college and have careers, go on vacations, etc. Granted, some believers are more focused on God than others so they do sacrifice a lot of their time and what they want for themselves. I did not live that way till fairly recently, as religion was just something I “believed.” A true believer lives the life their religion teaches, they don’t just believe.I am now trying to be a true believer but that is a work in progress.

Some atheists I'm certain, just love to argue period as is evidenced by the endless and fruitless go rounds with believers.

Some do and some don’t. The same applies to believers. I think it is a personality trait. I used to like to argue but I have changed over the years on forums. I really just want to have a fruitful discussion, not convince anyone of anything. I am also on forums to make friends, and I have some atheist friends on the other forums I post on who will always be near and dear to my heart, even though we do get into heated discussions at times.

Most atheists I think, don't find religions necessary to live a moral, ethical, practical or politically and socially involved life. Some might engage believers to try to understand why they feel they cannot live moral or ethical lives without the aid of a god looking over their shoulders.

Or why feel they are not of any worth or value unless they are worshiping their particular god and belong to the "right" religion. I suppose in some sense if they need their beliefs in order to be moral and ethical or to feel any self-worth, it's best for society they are contained by those beliefs and not let loose to act out what they otherwise can't control on their own.

I cannot speak for any other believers, only for myself. I do not need beliefs to have a sense of self-worth or to be moral or ethical. I always had a sense of right and wrong. I do not think becoming a Baha’i changed that except that I learned many new things that I have added to my list of right and wrong.

I do not think that religion is necessary in order to live a moral, ethical, practical or politically and socially involved life. People either have values or not, and live according to those values. One does not have to believe in God in order to have good values, a conscience and a sense of shame, which comes from knowing right from wrong. One does not have to fear God in order to live a decent life, caring about others and doing good works. One could argue that if atheists do good works for the sake of good rather than from fear that is more laudable than doing them out of fear or consequences or hope for a reward in heaven.

To me though, the bottom line is that if God exists and has a message, I want to know what that message is and follow it, because that is in my best interest and the best interest of others whom I effect in my life. The way I reason it out is thatGod is All-Knowing and All-Wise, so God knows what is best for me. I can never know as much as God about what is best for me because I am not All-Knowing or All-Wise.

But for many practical reasons such as involvement in implementing fair and just policies for all humans equally and working to understand science for the sake of ecosystems, atheists would like to see less belief and talk and more involved action. In order for that to happen they choose religious platforms to make their cases.

I would also like to see more involved action among religious groups. The Baha’is are very concerned about social justice,a more even distribution of wealth, and the elimination of prejudice of all kinds. Whereas the primary message of Jesus was Love, the primary message of Baha’u’llah was justice. This is the Day of Justice.

2: O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4​

I'm sure there are other reasons atheists talk to believers about religion but I can bet you all the tea in China it's not because they are looking for God. Most have already been there and done that. It is kind of sad to see so much wasted time and effort by some believers trying to convince atheists to see the 'right' light. Of course equally sad if some atheists really have no life other than trying to make believers see their light. It would be better to take some of that free time and go sunning on a beach or to smell the roses before they die. Very few if any people change their minds after spending half a lifetime finding the answers they have found.

From my experience on several forums talking to atheists for four years night and day, I can safely say that “some” atheists would like to believe in God if they could find “evidence” that proved to their satisfaction that God actually exists. However, I have not encountered any atheists who are going to lose any sleep over the lack of evidence.

I agree that it is a waste of time for believers to try to convince atheists of their religion or that God exists; conversely, it is a waste of time for atheists to try to convince believers that they are deluded or brainwashed, which is what most of them say to me. Believers have their heart in the right place because they believe that God is important, but it is not their place to try to convince anyone else. We all have free will so we are all responsible to make our own decisions. I do not understand why atheists spend an inordinate amount of time trying to de-convert believers because time is limited, since they do not believe in an afterlife. By contrast, for believers time is not as much of an issue since most of us believe this life is not the all there is.

When I first came to the forums over almost six years ago now, my primary goal was to edge my way back into the Baha’i Faith because I had nothing much to do with it for decades. I also wanted to make peace with God because I had either avoided God or been angry at God for decades. After being on a Baha’i forum for about six months I started branching off to some Christian forums to learn about Christianity and share the Baha’i beliefs. That did not pan out very well because Christians generally do not like Baha’is on their forums so about four years ago I started my own forum in the same forum group that is designed for people of all beliefs and nonbelievers, everyone.

My forum was pretty active for a while, until I got too busy on the atheist forum. Last December I had a “falling out” with the atheist forum owner so I left that forum and came here. I still post on another forum in that forum group, mostly to my atheist friends. They got tired of the micromanagement of the atheist forum owner so they left that forum voluntarily. Whenever they get tired of a forum in that group, they come to my forum which is for all believers and nonbelievers.

The goals I explained above has changes over the years. I still want to share the Baha’i Faith with anyone who is interested because I have been enjoined with that responsibility, but there are many other reasons I spend so much time on forums. One is that I like to learn about other religions and what others believe and disbelieve and why. Psychology is my other hat and one I wore a lot longer than my religion hat. Another reason for being on forums is for my own spiritual growth. I have grown more in the last six years than in my entire life, because as an introvert, I was not interacting with people much in person before I came to forums. By learning to not only tolerate but get along well with people who are very different from me in their personality and beliefs has greatly improved my character.

Learning is a never-ending process, there will always be more we can learn till the end of our lives, and afterwards, according to my beliefs.I have also learned to express myself in ways I never would have in a face to face relationship. Finally, and not the least important reason to spend so much time on forums, is that I have made so many friends. The fact that I do not meet them in person is of no consequence to me. I am probably closer to them than someone I would socialize with in a cocktail party type situation, because of the deep things we have shared over the years. Forums are so much different from Facebook.

This atheist does have other things to do surrounding the reality of this moment. But it is interesting to drop in once in a while to see people dancing around the circle and maybe make a comment. What do you think? Maybe I'm just lazy and arrogant because I don't spend my life believing or searching for "God"?

No, I do not think you are either lazy or arrogant.There are only a numbered few atheists I would attach either of those labels to, and that is because they earned them, by saying that God is stupid and they could do a better job of communicating to humanity. That is the epitome of arrogance. I consider them lazy only because they would like to believe in God but only if God communicates to them directly, so they won’t have to do anything.

See you next time. The beach is calling.

I hope you find a beach. I highly doubt I will ever see one. About eight years ago we bought a beach house but we have never had any time to use it, so we rented it out on a Lease. I am happy that at least someone is able to enjoy it. Our present tenant has been there over five years.

 

[wandering peacefully]

Jehovah is the Spirit, and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.
There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love. As for us, we love, because he first loved us.

I think religion can appear to be a silly idea when one doesn't have either of these, and therefore don't experience what true Christians do.
I have seen people go away from the spirit, and return - whether a few years or many years after. They seem happy that after throwing away their freedom for slavery in this world, they were still allowed the opportunity to regain their freedom.

All I see are happy people, serving Jehovah. Not out of fear, but out of love, and the joy is abundant and evident.

I'm sorry you are missing out on it, but the choice was put before us.
I think it's good we get to choose, because we can't complain about our rewards afterwards.

As long as the door remains opened, I believe you are welcomed.

Don't be sorry. I love life and experience love all around me. So I'm not missing out on love at all. And I certainly don't fear the day I will no longer be here. Hopefully it will be a while before that day comes because I enjoy and treasure the reality of this world. The only world we have and the only life we have.

I am glad for those who believe various myths and stories if it brings them comfort and lack of fear of death. As long as they understand those stories belong to themselves and they don't expect others to believe what they do by using threats of eternal torture or lay guilt trips of being unworthy, immoral, lost, arrogant, etc upon everyone who doesn't believe what they do. If we had more of keeping it quiet and personal and had less enthusiasm to convince others of our "Truth", we would see a lot more of this love and compassiin between all people not just within our own group.

Oh, and the whole "not having what real Christians have" is not a bad thing for those not chained to those beliefs anymore. It sure is comfy though, not just believing but "knowing" a big loving daddy lIves all around, in us, and somewhere out there and will take care of us for eternity. Very easy, and very comfortable. But once a person wakes up to a different reality, cognitive dissonance or going back is no longer an option.

So carry on. Thanks for the convo.

 

[wandering peacefully]

Indeed, you atheists have a lot to impart. We believers need to listen to your perspectives. It is unhealthy to be mired in our beliefs all the time and not look at what is outside of them.

I can certainly agree that belief systems can often cause bigotry and arrogance as well as divisiveness in general between neighbors on the same planet. This is against everything the Baha’i Faith teaches, which is that we are all one people, and that includes nonbelievers.

From what I have seen of believers, most of them enjoy life just as much as nonbelievers, so just having a belief has not precluded them living life to its fullest. They get married and have children, go to college and have careers, go on vacations, etc. Granted, some believers are more focused on God than others so they do sacrifice a lot of their time and what they want for themselves. I did not live that way till fairly recently, as religion was just something I “believed.” A true believer lives the life their religion teaches, they don’t just believe.I am now trying to be a true believer but that is a work in progress.

Some do and some don’t. The same applies to believers. I think it is a personality trait. I used to like to argue but I have changed over the years on forums. I really just want to have a fruitful discussion, not convince anyone of anything. I am also on forums to make friends, and I have some atheist friends on the other forums I post on who will always be near and dear to my heart, even though we do get into heated discussions at times.

I cannot speak for any other believers, only for myself. I do not need beliefs to have a sense of self-worth or to be moral or ethical. I always had a sense of right and wrong. I do not think becoming a Baha’i changed that except that I learned many new things that I have added to my list of right and wrong.

I do not think that religion is necessary in order to live a moral, ethical, practical or politically and socially involved life. People either have values or not, and live according to those values. One does not have to believe in God in order to have good values, a conscience and a sense of shame, which comes from knowing right from wrong. One does not have to fear God in order to live a decent life, caring about others and doing good works. One could argue that if atheists do good works for the sake of good rather than from fear that is more laudable than doing them out of fear or consequences or hope for a reward in heaven.

To me though, the bottom line is that if God exists and has a message, I want to know what that message is and follow it, because that is in my best interest and the best interest of others whom I effect in my life. The way I reason it out is thatGod is All-Knowing and All-Wise, so God knows what is best for me. I can never know as much as God about what is best for me because I am not All-Knowing or All-Wise.

I would also like to see more involved action among religious groups. The Baha’is are very concerned about social justice,a more even distribution of wealth, and the elimination of prejudice of all kinds. Whereas the primary message of Jesus was Love, the primary message of Baha’u’llah was justice. This is the Day of Justice.

2: O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4​

From my experience on several forums talking to atheists for four years night and day, I can safely say that “some” atheists would like to believe in God if they could find “evidence” that proved to their satisfaction that God actually exists. However, I have not encountered any atheists who are going to lose any sleep over the lack of evidence.

I agree that it is a waste of time for believers to try to convince atheists of their religion or that God exists; conversely, it is a waste of time for atheists to try to convince believers that they are deluded or brainwashed, which is what most of them say to me. Believers have their heart in the right place because they believe that God is important, but it is not their place to try to convince anyone else. We all have free will so we are all responsible to make our own decisions. I do not understand why atheists spend an inordinate amount of time trying to de-convert believers because time is limited, since they do not believe in an afterlife. By contrast, for believers time is not as much of an issue since most of us believe this life is not the all there is.

When I first came to the forums over almost six years ago now, my primary goal was to edge my way back into the Baha’i Faith because I had nothing much to do with it for decades. I also wanted to make peace with God because I had either avoided God or been angry at God for decades. After being on a Baha’i forum for about six months I started branching off to some Christian forums to learn about Christianity and share the Baha’i beliefs. That did not pan out very well because Christians generally do not like Baha’is on their forums so about four years ago I started my own forum in the same forum group that is designed for people of all beliefs and nonbelievers, everyone.

My forum was pretty active for a while, until I got too busy on the atheist forum. Last December I had a “falling out” with the atheist forum owner so I left that forum and came here. I still post on another forum in that forum group, mostly to my atheist friends. They got tired of the micromanagement of the atheist forum owner so they left that forum voluntarily. Whenever they get tired of a forum in that group, they come to my forum which is for all believers and nonbelievers.

The goals I explained above has changes over the years. I still want to share the Baha’i Faith with anyone who is interested because I have been enjoined with that responsibility, but there are many other reasons I spend so much time on forums. One is that I like to learn about other religions and what others believe and disbelieve and why. Psychology is my other hat and one I wore a lot longer than my religion hat. Another reason for being on forums is for my own spiritual growth. I have grown more in the last six years than in my entire life, because as an introvert, I was not interacting with people much in person before I came to forums. By learning to not only tolerate but get along well with people who are very different from me in their personality and beliefs has greatly improved my character.

Learning is a never-ending process, there will always be more we can learn till the end of our lives, and afterwards, according to my beliefs.I have also learned to express myself in ways I never would have in a face to face relationship. Finally, and not the least important reason to spend so much time on forums, is that I have made so many friends. The fact that I do not meet them in person is of no consequence to me. I am probably closer to them than someone I would socialize with in a cocktail party type situation, because of the deep things we have shared over the years. Forums are so much different from Facebook.

No, I do not think you are either lazy or arrogant.There are only a numbered few atheists I would attach either of those labels to, and that is because they earned them, by saying that God is stupid and they could do a better job of communicating to humanity. That is the epitome of arrogance. I consider them lazy only because they would like to believe in God but only if God communicates to them directly, so they won’t have to do anything.

I hope you find a beach. I highly doubt I will ever see one. About eight years ago we bought a beach house but we have never had any time to use it, so we rented it out on a Lease. I am happy that at least someone is able to enjoy it. Our present tenant has been there over five years.

Wowza! Talk about loaded and in need of time to repond to! Thanks for that thought out response.

So I will do that in the next several days. Hope you make it out for a little fun this weekend.

 

[nPeace]

Don't be sorry. I love life and experience love all around me. So I'm not missing out on love at all. And I certainly don't fear the day I will no longer be here. Hopefully it will be a while before that day comes because I enjoy and treasure the reality of this world. The only world we have and the only life we have.

I am glad for those who believe various myths and stories if it brings them comfort and lack of fear of death. As long as they understand those stories belong to themselves and they don't expect others to believe what they do by using threats of eternal torture or lay guilt trips of being unworthy, immoral, lost, arrogant, etc upon everyone who doesn't believe what they do. If we had more of keeping it quiet and personal and had less enthusiasm to convince others of our "Truth", we would see a lot more of this love and compassiin between all people not just within our own group.

Oh, and the whole "not having what real Christians have" is not a bad thing for those not chained to those beliefs anymore. It sure is comfy though, not just believing but "knowing" a big loving daddy lIves all around, in us, and somewhere out there and will take care of us for eternity. Very easy, and very comfortable. But once a person wakes up to a different reality, cognitive dissonance or going back is no longer an option.

So carry on. Thanks for the convo.

Yes, we all have one belief or other, and in most cases we think our belief is right. When we speak, we may feel we are doing good, and we may even feel that keeping silent is doing good. We may feel too that we are showing love, while others are not.
I think we agree that we all have a belief - different, but a belief nonetheless, and we are glad to be free to make our choices. True.

Hopefully, we may have a future conversation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hope you make it out for a little fun this weekend.

Thanks, but I am out at work four days a week and I ride my bike three hours a day to and from work, so I like to stay home on my three day weekends. I have everything I need at home, including the 10 Persian cats I love dearly and all the birds and wild animals outdoors that I observe on my deck. Then I have my atheist friends on two other forums I talk to daily, so I never get lonely or bored. Oh, and once in a while I see my husband in the kitchen while getting my coffee and late at night when we have dinner. We go out to eat once in a while, which is a big event for us.

My life is pretty stressful with lots of responsibilities so I need to sleep and lay low on weekends.
I hope you have a good weekend. Get back with me when you have time.

 

[1robin]

Proven to be true to any level of truth you choose-- you just don't like it, because it definitively proves your bible is false on multiple counts.

Wrong, truth does not come in levels, in isn't an analogue. It is either digitally true or false.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Wrong, truth does not come in levels, in isn't an analogue. It is either digitally true or false.

Ummm... what?

If what you just said is accurate (and if I understand your meaning*) then?

The bible has to be 100% false all the way through-- being as how it contains many-many outright false statements.

The Classic True/False question: if any part of the question is false, the whole thing is false.

However. This presumes the bible is a homogeneous whole-- which it clearly isn't. It's a poorly edited amalgam of many-many widely disparate sources.

The real problem is? How does one determine which bits are "true" and which bits are not?

And to what level of "truth"?

_______________

* see? It's not digital, as you assert: Even your own statement can be seen has having shades of meaning, which can affect perception of the meaning...

 

[wandering peacefully]

Thanks, but I am out at work four days a week and I ride my bike three hours a day to and from work, so I like to stay home on my three day weekends. I have everything I need at home, including the 10 Persian cats I love dearly and all the birds and wild animals outdoors that I observe on my deck. Then I have my atheist friends on two other forums I talk to daily, so I never get lonely or bored. Oh, and once in a while I see my husband in the kitchen while getting my coffee and late at night when we have dinner. We go out to eat once in a while, which is a big event for us.

My life is pretty stressful with lots of responsibilities so I need to sleep and lay low on weekends.
I hope you have a good weekend. Get back with me when you have time.

"From my experience on several forums talking to atheists for four years night and day, I can safely say that “some” atheists would like to believe in God if they could find “evidence” that proved to their satisfaction that God actually exists. However, I have not encountered any atheists who are going to lose any sleep over the lack of evidence.

I agree that it is a waste of time for believers to try to convince atheists of their religion or that God exists; conversely, it is a waste of time for atheists to try to convince believers that they are deluded or brainwashed, which is what most of them say to me. Believers have their heart in the right place because they believe that God is important, but it is not their place to try to convince anyone else. We all have free will so we are all responsible to make our own decisions. I do not understand why atheists spend an inordinate amount of time trying to de-convert believers because time is limited, since they do not believe in an afterlife. By contrast, for believers time is not as much of an issue since most of us believe this life is not the all there is."

Hi again. Thanks I had a great weekend. I sort of just jumped into the conversation because you were wondering why atheists taliked about religion if they were not really seeking . I hope I gave some ideas about that. I see you agreed with my thoughts that believers should not spend time trying to convince others they have the one true way, or the "right god" or prophet/message/religion. I really think that when all people understand that people of faith and those without can really begin to have a truly compassionate relationship and can spend that extra time spent now on fighting over who is right, instead trying to work for real solutions to humanities problems. As you indicate there is only so much time in a day and that time should be spent wisely. Convincing others of our own personal beliefs imo is not a beneficial use of time for anyone. Working on our own inner peace and enlightenment should go a long way to building a positive relationship with others in our lives, society and the world.

One last comment on atheists is that they would not have any reason to discuss atheism anywhere if they never were exposed to the beliefs of theists. There would be nothing to talk about in that regards. Just think of all that extra time for real action!

And smelling the roses by the sea with their new friends as they work together for all.

 

[1robin]

Ummm... what?

You suggested that truth comes in levels, I was pointing out that it does not. When I say that what we refer to as the moon exists, that statement is either 100% true or 100% false. There is no in between.

If what you just said is accurate (and if I understand your meaning*) then?

The bible has to be 100% false all the way through-- being as how it contains many-many outright false statements.

I disagree with what you said about the bible but it has nothing to do with what I said. I didn't say certain parts of something can't be true and others false, I just pointed out that truth does not come in degrees. For example the bible says the city called Jerusalem existed. That is true even if the flood never occurred and but it I s100% true that Jerusalem has existed. Don't get quantity and degree confused.

The Classic True/False question: if any part of the question is false, the whole thing is false.

You posed no question to even consider. I however will give you a paradox.

Take the statement "there is no such thing as absolute truth". If that statement is true then it is false and if false then it is true. In fact the statement itself is logically incoherent.

However. This presumes the bible is a homogeneous whole-- which it clearly isn't. It's a poorly edited amalgam of many-many widely disparate sources.

The bible is a whole but not a homogeneous whole so you argument based upon it is false.

The real problem is? How does one determine which bits are "true" and which bits are not?

If you look up proper biblical exegesis and the historical method you would be well on your way to answering your question. It depends on which bit is in question.

And to what level of "truth"?

Again there are no analogue levels of truth. Specific claims are either 100% true or 100% false. Forget parts and think degree.

_______________

* see? It's not digital, as you assert: Even your own statement can be seen has having shades of meaning, which can affect perception of the meaning...

This font was too small to even figure out. Looks like an irrelevant conclusion based on a false premise but can't tell for sure.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You suggested that truth comes in levels, I was pointing out that it does not. When I say that what we refer to as the moon exists, that statement is either 100% true or 100% false. There is no in between..

But. Parts of the statement may be true, while parts may be false-- which is how you theists operate most of the time.

It also describes your entire bible-- tiny fragments may be true, but overall? It's false.

So is it 100% false or 100% true? By YOUR OWN WORDS? It must be 100% false.

Good! This is progress.

I disagree with what you said about the bible but it has nothing to do with what I said. I didn't say certain parts of something can't be true and others false, I just pointed out that truth does not come in degrees. .

Now you are just arguing semantics. You claim the bible is true-- but you allow that parts of it are false. Yet you say something must be 100% or 0%.

You do seem confused here.

For example the bible says the city called Jerusalem existed. That is true even if the flood never occurred and but it I s100% true that Jerusalem has existed. Don't get quantity and degree confused..

So? Harry Potter books talk about London. Mentioning real places in a work of fiction, does not magically transform the fiction into nonfiction.

You posed no question to even consider. I however will give you a paradox.

Take the statement "there is no such thing as absolute truth". If that statement is true then it is false and if false then it is true. In fact the statement itself is logically incoherent..

Cute. But irrelevant. It's a function of English Language, really-- and your failure to recognize the subtleties of the meanings of words.

I find that common among absolutists (see above)

The bible is a whole but not a homogeneous whole so you argument based upon it is false..

Nonsensical word-salad on your part. This is internally contradictory:

"a whole but not a homogeneous whole "

If you look up proper biblical exegesis and the historical method you would be well on your way to answering your question. It depends on which bit is in question..

LOL! Why? The bible either IS a Magical Word Of God or it isn't.

I say it isn't -- due to it's many-many flaws. I would expect an ACTUAL word of god to be..

... well Godly, for starters. The bible is full of misogyny, slavery, genocide, rape and worse--- all sanctioned and commanded by it's god as Righteous Acts.

Again there are no analogue levels of truth. Specific claims are either 100% true or 100% false. Forget parts and think degree..

Forget 'parts' and think 'degree'? What does that even mean? Maybe I need some Ranch Dressing?

But: "Specific claims are either 100% true or 100% false." So the bible is 100% God's Word, or it's 100% NOT? Hmmmmm...

I think I actually agree with that one! However, without proof of this "god"? It is moot anyway..

This font was too small to even figure out. Looks like an irrelevant conclusion based on a false premise but can't tell for sure.

You could simply have read it in the QUOTED part! LOL!

But it proves your entire rant ... false. Using your own standards.

 

[1robin]

But. Parts of the statement may be true, while parts may be false-- which is how you theists operate most of the time.

But each part of a statement would be 100% true or 100% false. Lets say that I said the sun is spherical in shape and is just a big orange. One statement, two parts. One part is 100% true, the other 100% false. Your confusing parts with degrees. No two statements can both be true and false in the same way at the same time. Its called the law of non-contradiction. Or X is not equal to X'.

It also describes your entire bible-- tiny fragments may be true, but overall? It's false.

Playing along with your example some parts would be 100% true and other completely distinct parts would be 100% false. The bible is a thing not a claim.

So is it 100% false or 100% true? By YOUR OWN WORDS? It must be 100% false.

Again I am playing along with your chosen delusion that some of the bible is false. The flood maybe false but the war with the Canaanites 100% true.

This is all just word games but they are on my side.

Good! This is progress.

Yes you now know objects are different from truth claims. The bible is a thing that contains claims that are either 100% true or 100% false.

Now you are just arguing semantics. You claim the bible is true-- but you allow that parts of it are false. Yet you say something must be 100% or 0%.

Yes this is just semantics but it is all I could think of to fill some time I had on my hands. However my semantics are correct.

You do seem confused here.

Speaking in strict semantics I do not believe the bible (a thing) is true. That is like saying an apple is true. However I do believe each individual claim in the bible is true.

So? Harry Potter books talk about London. Mentioning real places in a work of fiction, does not magically transform the fiction into nonfiction.

Some of the statements in Harry Potter are true and some are fictitious but Harry Potter is a trade name not a truth claim. Again that is like claiming a car is true. Things are just things they are not necessarily truth claims. Again this is just semantics but true none the less.

Cute. But irrelevant. It's a function of English Language, really-- and your failure to recognize the subtleties of the meanings of words.

It was only meant to be true so I succeeded.

I find that common among absolutists (see above)

Absolutist in what sense. I believe some things are true and others not. Nothing absolute about that. I would hope you share that view.

Nonsensical word-salad on your part. This is internally contradictory:

"a whole but not a homogeneous whole "

No a whole is composed of various thing, a homogenous whole is composed of like things. the contents of a full water bottle are taken to be homogenous, the contents of a v8 engine not so much.

LOL! Why? The bible either IS a Magical Word Of God or it isn't.

You do not understand biblical infallibility. The original revelation (theopneustos - God breathed) was perfect, what man did to the logos since that time is amazing but not quite perfect.

I say it isn't -- due to it's many-many flaws. I would expect an ACTUAL word of god to be..

This is a whoel other issue entirely. Pick your claim and show it to be wrong.

... well Godly, for starters. The bible is full of misogyny, slavery, genocide, rape and worse--- all sanctioned and commanded by it's god as Righteous Acts.

Again, playing your own game that would not mean the bible was imperfect, just that you don't like certain parts.

Forget 'parts' and think 'degree'? What does that even mean? Maybe I need some Ranch Dressing?

You said truth comes in degrees I am trying to get you to see that things come in parts to which are either 100% true or 100% false.

But: "Specific claims are either 100% true or 100% false." So the bible is 100% God's Word, or it's 100% NOT? Hmmmmm...

Again it would depend on which part your referring to.

Sorry I got to go pick this up tomorrow.

 

[paarsurrey]

Other than the Bible doesn't mention whether or not Jesus had sex in his life, why believe he never did? Would that somehow have tainted him?

Jesus did marry,so there is no need to believe that he did not have sex, please?
Did Jesus ever say that he was not married?
If yes, then please quote from him.
Regards

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

But each part of a statement would be 100% true or 100% false. Lets say that I said the sun is spherical in shape and is just a big orange. One statement, two parts. One part is 100% true, the other 100% false. Your confusing parts with degrees. No two statements can both be true and false in the same way at the same time. Its called the law of non-contradiction. Or X is not equal to X'..

This was YOUR silly notion! The 100%/0%. Whereas *I* recognize Statistical Analysis, where things can have shaded meaning, and be partly true, and partly false.

Take Einstein's Theory of Relativity: Is it 100% true? no. Is it 100% false? Again-- NO.

I realize this is way over your head, but do try a bit here.

Playing along with your example some parts would be 100% true and other completely distinct parts would be 100% false. The bible is a thing not a claim..

False: The bible IS your claim. It is 100% of your claim, in fact-- without it? You'd have nothing. You might still be a theist, but you would NOT be a christian...

.... oooops!

Again I am playing along with your chosen delusion that some of the bible is false. The flood maybe false but the war with the Canaanites 100% true..

Not a delusion, and you have built a STRAWMAN: I think 100% if the bible is false.

BY DESIGN. If there happens to be a wee tiny bit that was NOT false? That is pure accident-- not by INTENT. The INTENT was Myth.

Just as Harry Potter was MYTH. That's how Fiction works.

PS. The war on the Canaanites? 100% fiction-- never happened! ooops!

This is all just word games but they are on my side..

Is this why you are losing so badly? hmmmmm...

Yes you now know objects are different from truth claims. The bible is a thing that contains claims that are either 100% true or 100% false..

The SUM of the parts is a CLAIM: since most of the sub-parts are FALSE?

The entire THING is false-- BY YOUR OWN STATEMENT OF 100%/0%.

oooops!

Yes this is just semantics but it is all I could think of to fill some time I had on my hands. However my semantics are correct..

Not even remotely. Ooops! If you were? There would be no confusion!

Speaking in strict semantics I do not believe the bible (a thing) is true. That is like saying an apple is true. However I do believe each individual claim in the bible is true..

What? That is denying your earlier statement of 100%/0%. Ooops!

Inconsistent, much?

Some of the statements in Harry Potter are true and some are fictitious but Harry Potter is a trade name not a truth claim. Again that is like claiming a car is true. Things are just things they are not necessarily truth claims. Again this is just semantics but true none the less..

LOL! Word Salad? Would you like Ranch, Vinaigrette or perhaps some Extra-Virgin Olive Oil?

LOL!

It was only meant to be true so I succeeded..

False.

Absolutist in what sense. I believe some things are true and others not. Nothing absolute about that. I would hope you share that view..

YOUR words: "100% or 0%"

And now? You are furiously back-peddling.... hmmmm.

No a whole is composed of various thing, a homogenous whole is composed of like things. the contents of a full water bottle are taken to be homogenous, the contents of a v8 engine not so much..

Meaningless.

You do not understand biblical infallibility. The original revelation (theopneustos - God breathed) was perfect, what man did to the logos since that time is amazing but not quite perfect..

LOL! Then? Your god is absolutely INCOMPETENT as a god! Beyond FAIL.

For even PERMITTING the corruption of his "perfect revelation" IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That makes your god? Weak or Evil. Which is it? Both?

This is a whoel other issue entirely. Pick your claim and show it to be wrong.

Again, playing your own game that would not mean the bible was imperfect, just that you don't like certain parts.
.

WRONG: I absolutely despise the entire ugly, evil, misogynistic pro-war, pro-rape thing as an Abomination before Humanity. I don't like ANY of it!

The bible is like a large organic compost heap: Sure-- there very well may be some kernels of Sweet Corn buried in there-- but is it worth the trouble digging it out?

You said truth comes in degrees I am trying to get you to see that things come in parts to which are either 100% true or 100% false..

So your bible is 100% false? Gotcha! That's what **I** said!

Again it would depend on which part your referring to.

Sorry I got to go pick this up tomorrow.

NOTEBOOK:

Please, go look up the use of "you're" and "your". It's driving me nuts... !

 

[Trailblazer]

Hi again. Thanks I had a great weekend. I sort of just jumped into the conversation because you were wondering why atheists talked about religion if they were not really seeking . I hope I gave some ideas about that. I see you agreed with my thoughts that believers should not spend time trying to convince others they have the one true way, or the "right god" or prophet/message/religion. I really think that when all people understand that people of faith and those without can really begin to have a truly compassionate relationship and can spend that extra time spent now on fighting over who is right, instead trying to work for real solutions to humanities problems. As you indicate there is only so much time in a day and that time should be spent wisely. Convincing others of our own personal beliefs imo is not a beneficial use of time for anyone. Working on our own inner peace and enlightenment should go a long way to building a positive relationship with others in our lives, society and the world.

I am glad you had a good weekend. Mine was uneventful, but for me that is a good thing. It was after the weekend was over that things got stressful.

Mostly what I was wondering about is why “some atheists” spend as much time as they do talking about god and religion, if they have no interest in it. I am sure there are as many reasons as there are atheists. From talking to as many atheists as I have as long as I have I know that some atheists would like to believe in God if they had “what they consider” to be sufficient evidence that God exists, but most atheists are not really that concerned about whether god exists or not, or so it seems. Maybe they have given up that there will ever be sufficient evidence and maybe some do not care.

I was never an atheist as an adult, so I don’t even know what it would be like to not believe in God. It is just a part of me although for most of my adult life I just believed and it did not mean much to me. Now it means everything.

I do not know why other believers talk to atheists, I only know why I do.Psychology is my other hat, so I have always been curious about people, why they think and do what they think and do. Admittedly, I also talk to atheists just in case they might be interested in believing in God, and I know some are simply because they have told me that. But to me their friendship is more important than anything else, and I learn from them just as they learn from me. I never push God or the Baha’i Faith, I just share what I believe.

My atheist friends finally realized that I have no interest in convincing them to believe anything, but given their past experience with Christians who demoralize them and threaten them with hellit took a long time for them to realize that. Now that they know I am just their friend and a sounding board, they do not feel threatened by me. On my forum we are all on a first name basis as I developed these friendships over the years. All of us know where we stand with belief and other things we discuss.

Maybe most believers are trying to convince atheists that God exists, I do not really know. The Christians I have encountered ion my other forums do that a lot but I have not seen that as much on this forum.

I have no interest in convincing anyone of anything. I am a firm believer in free will, and that everyone has to make their own choices, which means that if they want to search for God they will. If not, that is their choice too. Nobody should try to convince anyone what they should believe, people have to convince themselves, if they are interested. Baha’u’llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself, meaning it should not be.

You mentioned humanity’s problems. What do you think those problems are? It seems to me that many people, believers and nonbelievers, do not “see” any problems, but rather think the world is no different than it has ever been. Perhaps it is because I am a Baha’i that I know nothing is the same and it never will be the same again. This is a new Day of God, a new religious cycle, the likes of which humanity has never seen before. This is a day that will not be followed by night, as in past history. It is going to get better from here on in, but there will be hills and valleys along the way, and it will take a long time before we see the promised Golden Age of humanity. It is going to take everyone working together to establish this, certainly the Baha’is do not believe we will be the primary builders. We believe we have the blueprint instructions from Baha’u’llah, but others are already following those instructions never having even seen them.

I should add that many of the atheists I used to converse with on a forum I no longer post on were really concerned about the environment, global warming, extinction of animals, etc. Some are also very concerned about social issues and talk a lot about politics.

One last comment on atheists is that they would not have any reason to discuss atheism anywhere if they never were exposed to the beliefs of theists. There would be nothing to talk about in that regards. Just think of all that extra time for real action!

And smelling the roses by the sea with their new friends as they work together for all.

It is true that there would be a lot more time to do things if we did not talk so much, but then we would not have the opportunity to learn from each other and become friends.

My idea of a perfect world is people working together with people of all different beliefs and non-beliefs, for the good of the whole. I already see that happening but it will become more noticeable as time goes on.

 

[paarsurrey]

I am glad you had a good weekend. Mine was uneventful, but for me that is a good thing. It was after the weekend was over that things got stressful.

Mostly what I was wondering about is why “some atheists” spend as much time as they do talking about god and religion, if they have no interest in it. I am sure there are as many reasons as there are atheists. From talking to as many atheists as I have as long as I have I know that some atheists would like to believe in God if they had “what they consider” to be sufficient evidence that God exists, but most atheists are not really that concerned about whether god exists or not, or so it seems. Maybe they have given up that there will ever be sufficient evidence and maybe some do not care.

I was never an atheist as an adult, so I don’t even know what it would be like to not believe in God. It is just a part of me although for most of my adult life I just believed and it did not mean much to me. Now it means everything.

I do not know why other believers talk to atheists, I only know why I do.Psychology is my other hat, so I have always been curious about people, why they think and do what they think and do. Admittedly, I also talk to atheists just in case they might be interested in believing in God, and I know some are simply because they have told me that. But to me their friendship is more important than anything else, and I learn from them just as they learn from me. I never push God or the Baha’i Faith, I just share what I believe.

My atheist friends finally realized that I have no interest in convincing them to believe anything, but given their past experience with Christians who demoralize them and threaten them with hellit took a long time for them to realize that. Now that they know I am just their friend and a sounding board, they do not feel threatened by me. On my forum we are all on a first name basis as I developed these friendships over the years. All of us know where we stand with belief and other things we discuss.

Maybe most believers are trying to convince atheists that God exists, I do not really know. The Christians I have encountered ion my other forums do that a lot but I have not seen that as much on this forum.

I have no interest in convincing anyone of anything. I am a firm believer in free will, and that everyone has to make their own choices, which means that if they want to search for God they will. If not, that is their choice too. Nobody should try to convince anyone what they should believe, people have to convince themselves, if they are interested. Baha’u’llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself, meaning it should not be.

You mentioned humanity’s problems. What do you think those problems are? It seems to me that many people, believers and nonbelievers, do not “see” any problems, but rather think the world is no different than it has ever been. Perhaps it is because I am a Baha’i that I know nothing is the same and it never will be the same again. This is a new Day of God, a new religious cycle, the likes of which humanity has never seen before. This is a day that will not be followed by night, as in past history. It is going to get better from here on in, but there will be hills and valleys along the way, and it will take a long time before we see the promised Golden Age of humanity. It is going to take everyone working together to establish this, certainly the Baha’is do not believe we will be the primary builders. We believe we have the blueprint instructions from Baha’u’llah, but others are already following those instructions never having even seen them.

I should add that many of the atheists I used to converse with on a forum I no longer post on were really concerned about the environment, global warming, extinction of animals, etc. Some are also very concerned about social issues and talk a lot about politics.

It is true that there would be a lot more time to do things if we did not talk so much, but then we would not have the opportunity to learn from each other and become friends.

My idea of a perfect world is people working together with people of all different beliefs and non-beliefs, for the good of the whole. I already see that happening but it will become more noticeable as time goes on.

"My idea of a perfect world is people working together with people of all different beliefs and non-beliefs, for the good of the whole. "

It is good approach.
Regards