Why believe The Bible?

[Jordan St. Francis]

I'd say conversion from the beliefs in which a person is raised is generally very difficult.

Of course Autodictat will laud the atheist for this, but God forbid a Christan claim that they could make this break in a different culture, now that's just arrogance.

Secondly, there are, of course, many examples of conversions in multiple directions amongst the world's religions.

 

[horizon_mj1]

Why not look at all of the different writtings and printings of the Bible and also include the Torah, Quarhan (sp?), dead sea scrolls, lost books of the bible (the ones the Roman Catholic Church excluded; wicca, etc... when incorporating a belief system? If you look at all of it closly, believe it or not they all have similarities and can be interlinked. The Bible, as with any religiously written text, has a historical account intermixed with a poetical philosophy. The reader is to take what they read and incorporate it to themselves, not to the world; most religious texts are the same; therefore, there is in fact a truth, but not necessarly how one person may percieve it.

 

[Autodidact]

So you expect me to say, by default, that were I born into any other religious tradition I would simply have committed myself to its beliefs for life without any room for intellectual or moral freedom? That a person is either faced with accepting the religion of their childhood, or like you, blessed with the critical gifts to recognize that there is no God and that atheism is the truth?

I expect you to recognize the very high probability that like most religious believers, you believe the religion you were raised to believe since you were a small child. One logical conclusion to draw from this is that had you been raised in a different religion, you would probably then believe that religion, like most people. It would be great, but truly exceptional, if you then took the next step of asking yourself some questions, like why that is, and what its implications are for the probably truth of your and all the other religions that people are raised to believe since childhood.

Can I say with any certainty that, had I been born into a different family, I would still be Catholic? Of course not. But you are also not familiar with the strong level of anti-Catholicism (and Christianity in general) that I harboured. My home environment also adapted to that situation and freely and loving embraced my alternative spiritualities so that I no real motivation to become Catholic again. Something changed those feelings around. Something convinced me otherwise.

Not certainly, but how about probability? The overwhelming probability is that, had you been raised Mormon in Utah, you would be Mormon today. What, if anything, does that say to you about religious belief in general and yours in particular?

btw, antagonism to your birth religion, and then later returning to it as an adult, is a very common pattern. A substantial percentage of believers follow this pattern.

Are you saying that conversion from one faith to another is not possible? Or only from Christianity to atheism?

I'm saying that it is the exception. The great majority of people in the world believe the religion they were raised to believe. Why do you think that is?

This has nothing to do with thinking myself "superior".

O.K., what exactly is it that makes you so different from all the people who were born in Saudi Arabia then?

 

[Autodidact]

Of course Autodictat will laud the atheist for this, but God forbid a Christan claim that they could make this break in a different culture, now that's just arrogance.

Secondly, there are, of course, many examples of conversions in multiple directions amongst the world's religions.

It's not that no one ever converts, but that most people believe what they were told as a small child. But the salient point, Jordan, is that you are not a convert. You are not one of the exceptions. You fall right into the middle of the statistical norm. Yet you persist in your belief that you are a Catholic not because you were raised to be one, and that had you been raised to be Muslim, you would still be Catholic. Have you ever in your life met a Catholic who was raised Muslim? So my question is, what makes you think you're so exceptional, when in fact you are quite typical?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I never made a claim to be exceptional. You are trying to pigeon hole me into arrogance and/ or rob me of my intellectual freedom by claiming your own particular insight into my return to Christianity. (That,based on your pyschological analysis, the only reason I believe the things I was taught as a child is to take comfort in childhood stories, for a sense nostalgia or some kind of regression).

I don't know why you are so angry, but I do think claiming to have the real reasons for my return to Catholic Christianity is quite arrogant itself. There was a time when I was thoroughly dissuaded from Christianity, It was not apathic falling away, it was an impassioned divorce.

There are such things as Muslim converts to Catholicism. I am not claiming with any certainty that no matter what I would be a Catholic (how could I know)? But I do believe my conversion was an intellectuall process, something I engaged critically, something that I had the moral and intellectual freedom to do. Just because I correspond to a statistic does not mean that the reasons behind my conversion must be as you suggest.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

You seem to be suggesting that committment to a belief system (or lack of, in the case of athiesm) is only an intellectually free act if one chooses something different than what they were taught as children.

You were graced to see the light, or lack thereof, and by your own critical power, in recognizing there is no God. There rest of us are merely slaves to our bedtime stories. Right.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

So my question is, what makes you think you're so exceptional, when in fact you are quite typical?

I sense a real personal agression seeping through here. All I'm saying is that my return to Catholicism was an intellectually free act, that the decision was not based on what I was raised to believe (rather, the beliefs I was raised in, my catechisis was never really formal nor aggressive).

I don't really think you know the personal details of my life or the genesis of my current beliefs.

 

[Autodidact]

I never made a claim to be exceptional.

I don't follow you. 99% of Saudi Arabians are Muslim. You believe that had you been born in Saudi Arabia, you would be Catholic. But you're not exceptional. How does that work?

You are trying to pigeon hole me into arrogance and/ or rob me of my intellectual freedom by claiming your own particular insight into my return to Christianity. (That,based on your pyschological analysis, the only reason I believe the things I was taught as a child is to take comfort in childhood stories, for a sense nostalgia or some kind of regression).

I don't think I made any claim about why you're Catholic, Jordan. I merely pointed out some facts, such as the fact that the overwhelming majority of people subscribe to the religion they were raised in, just like you.

I don't know why you are so angry, but I do think claiming to have the real reasons for my return to Catholic Christianity is quite arrogant itself. There was a time when I was thoroughly dissuaded from Christianity, It was not apathic falling away, it was an impassioned divorce.

What makes you think I'm angry? I'm just stating some uncomfortable truths. I never said anything about your reasons for doing anything. I'm just pointing out that your life has followed the same pattern as most of the Muslims, Hindus, Mormons and so forth of this world. An impassioned divorce followed by a recommitment to the faith of childhood is a fairly typical version of this pattern. I could ask why having someone point out that you're typical makes you so angry?

Now, once we recognize this truth, you might follow the logic, and see where it leads you. You feel that you've found the truth about God and life. So do all the Punjabis and inhabitants of Salt Lake City, who also believe that due to their independent analysis of the evidence, they also just happened by sheer coincidence to find themselves believing exactly what they were raised to believe. Where does that leave you? What do you conclude from that?

There are such things as Muslim converts to Catholicism.

Really? How many have you met?

I am not claiming with any certainty that no matter what I would be a Catholic (how could I know)? But I do believe my conversion was an intellectuall process, something I engaged critically, something that I had the moral and intellectual freedom to do. Just because I correspond to a statistic does not mean that the reasons behind my conversion must be as you suggest.

Well, I'm sure you believe that. I'm not too into these abstract concepts. I will just point out that the coincidence is interesting. You were raised Catholic. You're Catholic. Millions of people are raised Muslim. They're all Muslims. Millions of people are raised Hindu. They're all Hindu. See a pattern here? Let me put it this way: What about all those Muslims, Hindus, Mormons and so forth. Do you think they engaged critically, and with their moral and intellectual freedom, concluded that Islam, Mormonism and so forth are the most accurate truths to believe? Or do you think that just maybe the way they were raised had something to do with their adult faith?

 

[Autodidact]

I sense a real personal agression seeping through here. All I'm saying is that my return to Catholicism was an intellectually free act, that the decision was not based on what I was raised to believe (rather, the beliefs I was raised in, my catechisis was never really formal nor aggressive).

I don't really think you know the personal details of my life or the genesis of my current beliefs.

Well, tell us any details you like. The thing is, you're contradicting yourself. You don't think that there's anything exceptional about you, but you also think that you are Catholic not because you were raised Catholic, but because of your independent assessment of the world's religions. Wouldn't that make you exceptional?

Let me ask you this. How much study did you do of the world's religions? Have you read the holy texts of the world's major religions? Have you spent any time studying their theology? What about the evidence in support of them? Did you try out any of them? Did you for example spend six months or so meditating in a Buddhist practice or anything of that sort? Or was it more like this: Atheism vs. Catholicism?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I'm in my fourth year for a honours degree in the study of religion and culture. Yes, I've studied other religions and continue to do so.

 

[Autodidact]

Well now, that does make you exceptional. So what do you think about Taoism?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I don't think I made any claim about why you're Catholic, Jordan.

Of course you are. By demaning that I admit that, were I born into a non-Catholic family, I would not be Catholic today, you are saying that my decision for Catholicism was not an intellectually free act but rather child hood indoctrination.

You want me to say, on account of a statistic likelihood, that my being convinced by the Christian religion is merely an overlay from my home life.

 

[Autodidact]

Of course you are. By demaning that I admit that, were I born into a non-Catholic family, I would not be Catholic today, you are saying that my decision for Catholicism was not an intellectually free act but rather child hood indoctrination.

You want me to say, on account of a statistic likelihood, that my being convinced by the Christian religion is merely an overlay from my home life.

Well, either you're exceptional, which you say you're not, or, like million of Muslims, if you were born Muslim, you'd be Muslim. Which is it? It's just the facts. So your conclusion from these facts is that you're a Catholic because of childhood indoctrination?

What do you think we should conclude from the fact that the great majority of people remain in the faith they were raised in, Jordan?

 

[Autodidact]

Or to put it differently, Jordan, rather than saying that you don't like the conclusion, what is wrong with either my premises or my logic?

 

[drs]

I can tell you for myself I am a Christian because before I was ever born I was predestened by the will of GOD to serve LORD JESUS CHRIST.

 

[Autodidact]

I can tell you for myself I am a Christian because before I was ever born I was predestened by the will of GOD to serve LORD JESUS CHRIST.

O.K. great. And what religion were you born in?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Your conclusion does not follow the premises. Just because a large number of people born into one religion end up practicing that religion in adulthood, by statistic, does not mean that the reason why I myself practice the religion of my childhood is because I was raised in it.

 

[drs]

what point r u trying to make?

I went to sunday school when i was very young by the time I was in high school I did not have any true faith all I did was drink and take drugs all the way up till about 4 years ago untill GOD put his SPIRT in me and transformed me.

 

[Autodidact]

Your conclusion does not follow the premises. Just because a large number of people born into one religion end up practicing that religion in adulthood, by statistic, does not mean that the reason why I myself practice the religion of my childhood is because I was raised in it.

Right. Because you're exceptional. btw, would you answer some of my other outstanding questions? Thanks.

 

[Autodidact]

what point r u trying to make?

I went to sunday school when i was very young by the time I was in high school I did not have any true faith all I did was drink and take drugs all the way up till about 4 years ago untill GOD put his SPIRT in me and transformed me.

so I take it you were raised Christian then?