Why can't Lucifer ever be redeemed?

[Kemosloby]

I just don't buy that because that posits that god is holding his flawed creation responsible rather than taking responsibility for making a flawed program.

Unless it has nothing to do with being flawed. Perhaps it's Gods' "living diagram" of what God thinks of sin. So it's all heaped onto the one scapegoat and burned in the hot fiery furnace, with any that might accompany him. Who knows.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Unless it has nothing to do with being flawed. Perhaps it's Gods' "living diagram" of what God thinks of sin. So it's all heaped onto the one scapegoat and burned in the hot fiery furnace, with any that might accompany him. Who knows.

The "diagram" was that everything was good and perfect. But that is not how it turned out. If it was truly good and perfect, it would have been impossible for sin to enter the world (is god really so weak that a rogue angel so easily thwarted his plans?). But it did, and it seems god did not even have the foresight to install a firewall to contain any problems, and instead of fixing the problem like any good engineer or coder would, god decided he was going to blame his own flawed creation for being flawed.

 

[Kenny]

I don't agree. Christians make the verses evil.

*

I don't agree:

1:9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied.
10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.

(that's what God does)

11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

The tempter tempted YHVH. That's what Satan does.

Notice that YHVH didn't do it but simply said "He is in your hands". (It is what Satan does.)

”
2:4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life.
5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

Again, the tempter tempted YHVH.

Notice that YHVH didn't do it but simply said "He is in your hands".

And again, Satan means adversary.

Reread the WHOLE story. Job was proud. He knew his sons did evil, but being proud, thought "HE" could just make sacrifices for them.

EXACTLY. And pride comes before destruction. Job opened the door on multiple areas and the sins gave Satan authority over his life. That is why Satan had the ability to destroy. But because Job's heart still maintained integrity towards YHVH -- he was forbidden from taking Job's life.

YHVH would not call it his JUDGMENT, and Job would not REPENT, - if it was just Satan being evil.

EXACTLY and they go hand in hand. Repentance brings deliverance from the power of Satan. If you do evil, you are giving authority to evil and you have the recompense of what that kingdom has... destruction and death. If you do right, you are operating in the Kingdom of God and you get what that Kingdom has... blessings.

A Kingdom divided cannot stand.--thus there are two kingdoms.

 

[Kemosloby]

The "diagram" was that everything was good and perfect. But that is not how it turned out. If it was truly good and perfect, it would have been impossible for sin to enter the world (is god really so weak that a rogue angel so easily thwarted his plans?). But it did, and it seems god did not even have the foresight to install a firewall to contain any problems, and instead of fixing the problem like any good engineer or coder would, god decided he was going to blame his own flawed creation for being flawed.

You have a human perspective. Who says God created the world for our pleasure? The bible says God created the world for his pleasure. If God's purpose and pleasure of creation is so that we might understand things, and that God might teach us the nature of things, what better way than an interactive living diagram to do it?

 

[Ingledsva]

I don't agree:

1:9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied.
10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.

(that's what God does)

11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

The tempter tempted YHVH. That's what Satan does.

Notice that YHVH didn't do it but simply said "He is in your hands". (It is what Satan does.)

”
2:4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life.
5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

Again, the tempter tempted YHVH.

Notice that YHVH didn't do it but simply said "He is in your hands".

And again, Satan means adversary.

EXACTLY. And pride comes before destruction. Job opened the door on multiple areas and the sins gave Satan authority over his life. That is why Satan had the ability to destroy. But because Job's heart still maintained integrity towards YHVH -- he was forbidden from taking Job's life.


EXACTLY and they go hand in hand. Repentance brings deliverance from the power of Satan. If you do evil, you are giving authority to evil and you have the recompense of what that kingdom has... destruction and death. If you do right, you are operating in the Kingdom of God and you get what that Kingdom has... blessings.

A Kingdom divided cannot stand.--thus there are two kingdoms.

You are telling me your God can be tempted? He is just a malleable human?

Nothing you have Satan saying there, - has to be taken in the negative. The words are common sense.

As I showed, the verses themselves tell us YHVH did it, and Job repented.

*

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Who says God created the world for our pleasure?

Considering the Bible is chalk full of "don't do this" and "don't do that," it is extremely doubtful god created the world for our pleasure, especially since the Bible does not say or imply this.

You have a human perspective. Who says God created the world for our pleasure? The bible says God created the world for his pleasure. If God's purpose and pleasure of creation is so that we might understand things, and that God might teach us the nature of things, what better way than an interactive living diagram to do it?

That still doesn't address the issue of god making a creation that is flawed, and holding the creation instead of himself accountable for these flaws.

 

[Kemosloby]

Considering the Bible is chalk full of "don't do this" and "don't do that," it is extremely doubtful god created the world for our pleasure, especially since the Bible does not say or imply this.

That still doesn't address the issue of god making a creation that is flawed, and holding the creation instead of himself accountable for these flaws.

It's only flawed from your point of view.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's only flawed from your point of view.

And apparently god's since he'll condemn us for all eternity if we don't grovel before him.

 

[Kenny]

You are telling me your God can be tempted? He is just a malleable human?
*

Are you twisting what I said?

No, I said that Satan is a tempter and can't help but be who he is. He is a tempter, liar and murderer and he seeks to steal, kill and destroy.

*

Nothing you have Satan saying there, - has to be taken in the negative. The words are common sense.
*

That's what I said... it is common sense. Not just in what he did, but what he said and what his name means. He remains God's adversary.

*

As I showed, the verses themselves tell us YHVH did it, and Job repented.

*

Yes Job did repent and YHVH's blessings (which is what He does) flowed again. The hedge of protection was there again...

Common sense... Why would YHVH have a hedge of protection unless He knew that the tempter, Satan, wanted to destroy it?
Common sense.

God can judge and take His protection away... but it is still evil that did the business.

 

[Kemosloby]

And apparently god's since he'll condemn us for all eternity if we don't grovel before him.

Possibly, but why would you consider it groveling unless you believed God was bad or unworthy?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Possibly, but why would you consider it groveling unless you believed God was bad or unworthy?

Because I see no reason to think of the Christian god as anything better than pure concentrated evil.

 

[dianaiad]

I'm fond of Allan Kardec's book "the spirits book". In that book the Spirits tell him that every Spirit will eventually be purified and made perfect. Wouldn't you prefer it if that was the case? Maybe it is. How do you know it isn't? In the Scriptures, sometimes God changes his mind. Why can't all spirits eventually be redeemed?

Wouldn't that rather depend upon whether the spirit involved wants to be redeemed?

John Milton wrote, of Lucifer in hell:

Here at least
we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
to reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

It ultimately, then, is the choice of the spirit involved, it would seem to me.

 

[Spiderman]

Wouldn't that rather depend upon whether the spirit involved wants to be redeemed?

John Milton wrote, of Lucifer in hell:

Here at least
we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
to reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

It ultimately, then, is the choice of the spirit involved, it would seem to me.

Yes, but maybe eventually he would want to be redeemed. Yes, you are right, he would have to want it though.

 

[Ingledsva]

Are you twisting what I said?

No, I said that Satan is a tempter and can't help but be who he is. He is a tempter, liar and murderer and he seeks to steal, kill and destroy.

*
That's what I said... it is common sense. Not just in what he did, but what he said and what his name means. He remains God's adversary.

*
Yes Job did repent and YHVH's blessings (which is what He does) flowed again. The hedge of protection was there again...

Common sense... Why would YHVH have a hedge of protection unless He knew that the tempter, Satan, wanted to destroy it?
Common sense.

God can judge and take His protection away... but it is still evil that did the business.

You are taking it out of context.


Job 40:6 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man; I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto Me.

Job 40:8 Wilt thou even make void My judgment? Wilt thou condemn Me, that thou mayest be justified?

Job 40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath; and look upon every one that is proud, and abase him.

Job 40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Job 41:11 (41:3) Who hath given Me anything beforehand, that I should repay him? Whatsoever is under the whole heaven is Mine.

Job 41:12 (41:4) Would I keep silence concerning his boastings, or his proud talk, or his fair array of words?


Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said:

Job 42:2 I know that Thou canst do every thing, and that no purpose can be withholden from Thee.

Job 42:3 Who is this that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not, things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

Job 42:4 Hear, I beseech Thee, and I will speak; I will demand of Thee, and declare Thou unto me.

Job 42:5 I had heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear; but now mine eye seeth Thee;

Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor my words, and repent, seeing I am dust and ashes.

*

 

[Kemosloby]

Because I see no reason to think of the Christian god as anything better than pure concentrated evil.

And Satan turning people against God is what caused all the mess.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And Satan turning people against God is what caused all the mess.

But god did not stop that, he did not fix the damage caused, and he wants to hold us accountable despite the creation he deemed to be "good" was actually so flawed that his own "omnipotence" was thwarted by nothing more than a rogue angel we are supposed to believe is powerless and willless against god.

 

[Kemosloby]

But god did not stop that, he did not fix the damage caused, and he wants to hold us accountable despite the creation he deemed to be "good" was actually so flawed that his own "omnipotence" was thwarted by nothing more than a rogue angel we are supposed to believe is powerless and willless against god.

Maybe he's not done yet. What's the rush?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Maybe he's not done yet. What's the rush?

The rush is the folly of expecting an incomplete/unfinished "program" to run flawlessly, and then getting angry at the program for not functioning properly. And, in addition, the Bible doesn't say there is anymore creation to come, only the second coming, which was supposed to happen while some of the Apostles were still alive.

 

[Thief]

I don't agree. Christians make the verses evil.

Job 1:6 Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan: 'Whence comest thou?' Then Satan answered the LORD, and said: 'From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.'

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan: 'Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil?'

This is no more evil then saying -The family of John came before John - and John asked Bob - where did you come from? - Bob answers, wandering around Texas.

In the VERY NEXT verse YHVH says have you (The TESTER) considered Job???

The next verse has Satan surprised that YHVH would do wrong to someone that was faithful and worshipped him.

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said: 'Doth Job fear God for nought?

YHVH brings the whole ordeal of testing to Job. Satan the tester just carries it out.

And at the end -

Job 40:6 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man; I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto Me.

Job 40:8 Wilt thou even make void My judgment? Wilt thou condemn Me, that thou mayest be justified?

Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

The writers of this story TELL US YHVH is responsible - with this verse (as well as 40:7-8)

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Why does YHVH call it HIS JUDGMENT (40:8)???

Also - why would Job understand and REPENT (42:6 while talking to YHVH) - if it was just an evil Satan doing something to him for no reason other than evil???

*

Nay...
The devil presented himself
and the retort ...from whence comest thou?....
is an objection to his presence

Have you considered the least of my servants Job?
is an insult
as God would prefer the presentation from the least of His servants
and would not have the devil stand equal to a Son

and the devil retorted the loyalty and worship of Job
accusing Job of a spirit that could be bought

The Lord ALLOWED the devil to do as the devil would do
all but kill Job ( if dead there is nothing to tell)

God knew His servant Job
Job had nothing to prove

and God has nothing to prove ......ever

It was the devil.....acting of his own envy, jealousy and spite
it was the devil that had something to prove

and he did prove it
his own vile and deathly wicked mind and heart

 

[Thief]

Nope, again, misunderstanding by later Christians whom (most) never read the whole story.

See my post # 58 above.

YHVH would not call it his JUDGMENT, and Job would not REPENT, - if it was just Satan being evil.

Reread the WHOLE story. Job was proud. He knew his sons did evil, but being proud, thought "HE" could just make sacrifices for them.

*

they who gave comfort ASSUMED Job had done something to bring God down upon him
even Job took on sack cloth and ash
for Job had said....the Lord gives the Lord takes
for Job had assumed he was always in the Hand of the Lord

in this story .....Job is blindsided
he is unaware the devil is at play