Why can't they all agree?

[Blackdog22]

I was thinking back to one of the things that turned me off religion when I was becoming an atheist. That is the problem of the Holy Spirit. One of the biggest things I was taught was that God had sent his Holy Spirit and that is the way he works in us now as opposed to thunderstorms, plagues, floods, burning bushes, giant clouds, donkeys, booming voices, fiery chariots, etc.

So there is a lot riding on the Holy Spirit being true for a believer when God is suddenly quiet and this is his alternative to just talking to us. However, this Holy Spirit appears fairly flawed and this is one of the reasons why I lost my faith.

One reason why I can't trust the Holy Spirit is because anyone can claim it. The problem comes up when people you know and trust claim things in the holy spirit that are blatantly false. For example 2 pastors who both claim to have the holy spirit, but have contradicting messages. One may say money is what God wants and another may say it isn't, but they both have the holy spirit, of course.

Another instance is my stepmother who woke up from a dream and said the holy spirit had told her I was going to run away. It created a massive scene and it was in no way accurate, but she is still completely confident that she knows when the holy spirit is speaking to her, and she isn't unique. I have encountered so many contradictions that came from the holy spirit it is simply a joke at this point for me.

So why do you think the holy spirit contradicts itself? If most of these people don't have the holy spirit, but claim they do, then how do I know who has it and who doesn't? If only one person truly has the holy spirit then that means there are a lot of crazy people out there who think their own mind is a spirit.

Also, do you think this was a good alternative to God just talking to us?

 

[ChristineES]

It isn't God or the Holy Spirit contradicting itself, it is the people. All people are different from each other, they have different needs and wants. There are some people who believe that misfortunes are because of God, there are plenty who don't. There are billions of people, all born in different areas, different cultures and so on. There is bound to be contradiction between them all.

 

[Blackdog22]

I absolutely agree Christine. My point is that then no one can claim anything in the name of the holy spirit, since everyone thinks they have the holy spirit and they are all in contradiction. The holy spirit wouldn't contradict itself, since God wouldn't be fighting against himself, so I am left with the fact that this holy spirit thing is in no way reliable. As a matter of fact, it seems completely worthless since there is no way to know who is "truly" talking through the holy spirit and who isn't. It also means there are a lot of people that think that there own minds are some spirit. If a lot of people can think that then I am left with a very skeptical look at every Christian I encounter who claims to be blessed with the holy spirit, because in all likelihood they aren't the "One" with the holy spirit and in that case I am talking to someone who is insane.

 

[Smoke]

Also, do you think this was a good alternative to God just talking to us?

Not at all. It seems to me that a god who really wanted to get his point across could make good use of burning bushes and talking donkeys. However if there really isn't any god, pretending that one's own imagination is the voice of the Holy Spirit is a mighty convenient -- if not convincing -- way to go.

 

[Wombat]

One reason why I can't trust the Holy Spirit is because anyone can claim it.

I agree Blackdog. Besides the fact that anyone can claim almost anything (from contact with aliens to sound ecenomic policy ;-) the claim to hear or be moved by the Holy Spirit is pervasive among religious people and should always be treated with suspicion.
My tendency and measure is to let thier 'deeds' not 'words' be evidence of what 'spirit' moves and motivates them

The problem comes up when people you know and trust claim things in the holy spirit that are blatantly false..

In one sentance you cover my reason for leaving the Baha'i religious community.

For example 2 pastors who both claim to have the holy spirit, but have contradicting messages. One may say money is what God wants and another may say it isn't, but they both have the holy spirit, of course...

Some such examples are best resolved by refering to the scripture in question.
What, in the context of Christs teachings, did you conclude was a more accurate reflection of the 'spirit' of Christianity?

Another instance is my stepmother who woke up from a dream and said the holy spirit had told her I was going to run away.

Come now, fairs fair...Mothers (even stepmothers) have the inate capacity to see all things past, present and future, they have eyes in the back of thier head, they know your motives, intent, heart, soul and mind and these powers have nothing to do with the 'Holy Spirit'.......quite the contrary ;-)

So why do you think the holy spirit contradicts itself?

As another has pointed out...It doesn't....people do.

If most of these people don't have the holy spirit, but claim they do, then how do I know who has it and who doesn't?

Look to thier deeds not thier words. In 57+ years I have only ever met one person who by my reconing (and the considered opinion of all those who met him) was clearly motivated/inspired/driven by some trancendent 'spirit'. Though religious he certainly never claimed or spoke of 'Holy Spirit'....he just went out and treated every person he encountered as if they were the most precious and important thing on earth.

The only reason I suspect anything like 'Holy Spirit' exists is because of the example that this old man >lived<.......not because of anything anyone 'says'.

Lore of the Land - Indigenous Cultures

Message Stick - Banjo Clarke

The Malcolm Fraser Collection: Towards 2000: Challenge to Australia

.....there are a lot of crazy people out there who think their own mind is a spirit.

You have any reason to doubt that is exactly the case? :slap: ;-)

 

[Beta]

So why do you think the holy spirit contradicts itself? If most of these people don't have the holy spirit, but claim they do, then how do I know who has it and who doesn't? If only one person truly has the holy spirit then that means there are a lot of crazy people out there who think their own mind is a spirit.

The simple answer to your question is the HS does not contradict itself but people do. Looking to people for the HS is the biggest mistake we can make. Anyone who claims it usually does not have it no matter how convinced that person is. The best we can do is to ignore their claim and look to what GOD has to say about it. And He surely has !!!
As to the human mind....God (scripture) says there is a spirit in man
that gives us understanding, the ability to take in knowledge (good and evil), think and reason. But that is all - this human spirit is not the Holy Spirit of God. The human spirit does not make man immortal, it does not give man eternal life - only the HS does.:yes:

 

[Blackdog22]

The simple answer to your question is the HS does not contradict itself but people do. Looking to people for the HS is the biggest mistake we can make. Anyone who claims it usually does not have it no matter how convinced that person is. The best we can do is to ignore their claim and look to what GOD has to say about it. And He surely has !!!
As to the human mind....God (scripture) says there is a spirit in man
that gives us understanding, the ability to take in knowledge (good and evil), think and reason. But that is all - this human spirit is not the Holy Spirit of God. The human spirit does not make man immortal, it does not give man eternal life - only the HS does.:yes:

I knew I should of worded that differently. My point in saying "Why does the holy spirit contradict itself" was to give an alternative to most everyone being crazy. Of course from a Biblical perspective the holy spirit wouldn't contradict itself, so all I am left with is that almost every person I have encountered that is a Christian is insane on some level, which is why I simply can't have faith in something based on emotions with a people who more than likely are insane, at least are insane if they believe they have the "true" holy spirit. Of course it could be that they actually have the holy spirit, but with all the contradictions there would be no way to tell. So yeah the majority would have to be insane since God wouldn't contradict himself. This makes the holy spirit worthless though is the problem, there is no way to confirm anything someone is doing except to check the holy spirit inside of you to see if what a person is saying checks out. However since the holy spirit isn't reliable how can you know that your spirit isn't falsely checking something out. When you really get deep into the idea of the holy spirit and apply it to everything the whole system falls apart. When someone opens their mouth you instantly know this system isn't working. A system of belief based on the idea that God sent a spirit to watch over us that isn't even reliable ends in a shattered belief.

 

[Beta]

This makes the holy spirit worthless though is the problem, there is no way to confirm anything someone is doing except to check the holy spirit inside of you to see if what a person is saying checks out. However since the holy spirit isn't reliable how can you know that your spirit isn't falsely checking something out. When you really get deep into the idea of the holy spirit and apply it to everything the whole system falls apart.

Friend , I do not wish to belittle your belief but are you not ascribing too much to your own human spirit ? Or do you assume to have the HS of God whether or not you are obedient to him ? We easily make that mistake when we read that God sheds abroad His Spirit. We assume it is ours for the taking. NOT SO !
It is a Gift to those who are obedient to him Acts5v32, or at least have a 'submissive attitude' toward him.Heb.5v8,9 confirm obedience to God is necessary. So we need to look at our own state of mind and heart before looking at other people's behaviour. We are to acquire the mind of Christ Phil.2v5 and as Heb.5 tells us.
I think what you mean is that the ' human spirit is unreliable ' not the HS of God ? So if we fail to truly grasp a problem we are listening to the wrong (human) spirit.

 

[Blackdog22]

Friend , I do not wish to belittle your belief but are you not ascribing too much to your own human spirit ? Or do you assume to have the HS of God whether or not you are obedient to him ? We easily make that mistake when we read that God sheds abroad His Spirit. We assume it is ours for the taking. NOT SO !
It is a Gift to those who are obedient to him Acts5v32, or at least have a 'submissive attitude' toward him.Heb.5v8,9 confirm obedience to God is necessary. So we need to look at our own state of mind and heart before looking at other people's behaviour. We are to acquire the mind of Christ Phil.2v5 and as Heb.5 tells us.
I think what you mean is that the ' human spirit is unreliable ' not the HS of God ? So if we fail to truly grasp a problem we are listening to the wrong (human) spirit.

Yes I do mean the human spirit. However they are indistinguishable. So you claiming anything in the holy spirit and another guy claiming something else in the holy spirit just shows that your either both insane or one of you is insane and I have no idea how to know which one of you are insane. When you apply this same idea on a global scale of people contradicting themselves it means there are a lot of crazy people who are mistaking their own spirit as the holy spirit. I have known some people who are extremely serious about their faith and they have been wrong about what they assume is the holy spirit. If someone that devoted to the holy spirit can be wrong then anyone can be. This means the holy spirit as a whole can in no way be trusted since it isn't reliable when used through humans(which just so happens to be the only way it gets used).

 

[Beta]

Yes I do mean the human spirit. However they are indistinguishable. So you claiming anything in the holy spirit and another guy claiming something else in the holy spirit just shows that your either both insane or one of you is insane and I have no idea how to know which one of you are insane. When you apply this same idea on a global scale of people contradicting themselves it means there are a lot of crazy people who are mistaking their own spirit as the holy spirit. I have known some people who are extremely serious about their faith and they have been wrong about what they assume is the holy spirit. If someone that devoted to the holy spirit can be wrong then anyone can be. This means the holy spirit as a whole can in no way be trusted since it isn't reliable when used through humans(which just so happens to be the only way it gets used).

To be honest - people going about claiming the HS and/or speaking through it are rather 'bragging' than humbly acting on it. In fact they do not have it or they would not make such claims. I ignore them for blowing their own trumpet is not the way of God's Spirit.!!!
We can certainly tell the difference between human sp and God's SP which shows up in a person's behaviour and obedience to God. When we speak through our own human sp we will make all kinds of claims not found in the Bible ie, we don't need to keep the Commandments or we don't need to keep the 7th day Sabbath, or we can choose our own church etc,etc. In other words the human sp is disobedient to God , please see Rom.8v7. Such disobedient are still in the flesh and are not pleasing God , do not have His SP, for it is given only to those willing to obey the Word Acts 5v32. 1Joh.2v4.
These scriptures and many others show that it is the obedient (who DO what God says) who please God and the disobedient do not. Surely that is easily detected ? You do not have to trust what people say ,you trust what scripture says and people's actions will show whose side they are on.

 

[jumpingjoy]

The concept of the Holy Spirit seems like an unlikely nonsense to me, especially when they behave like crazy people when supposedly 'spirit filled'!

 

[Beta]

The concept of the Holy Spirit seems like an unlikely nonsense to me, especially when they behave like crazy people when supposedly 'spirit filled'!

Perhaps you did not read my post.
Why are you blaming the HS for the wrong claims and wrong-doings people attach to it ? It is people who are full of nonsense not the HS of God . They falsly claim it.

 

[jumpingjoy]

Perhaps you did not read my post.
Why are you blaming the HS for the wrong claims and wrong-doings people attach to it ? It is people who are full of nonsense not the HS of God . They falsly claim it.

If god and HS were real instead of mythical then the evils of this world should be laid at their door as they are the instigators of all that is bad and rotten in this world!

 

[gnomon]

Pssshhh.

Trinitarians.

 

[ninerbuff]

The holy spirit character came along when leaders of the christian church drank too many spirits.

 

[PolyHedral]

Perhaps you did not read my post.
Why are you blaming the HS for the wrong claims and wrong-doings people attach to it ? It is people who are full of nonsense not the HS of God . They falsly claim it.

How do you distinguish false claims from the real ones?

 

[Katzpur]

I was thinking back to one of the things that turned me off religion when I was becoming an atheist. That is the problem of the Holy Spirit. One of the biggest things I was taught was that God had sent his Holy Spirit and that is the way he works in us now as opposed to thunderstorms, plagues, floods, burning bushes, giant clouds, donkeys, booming voices, fiery chariots, etc.

So there is a lot riding on the Holy Spirit being true for a believer when God is suddenly quiet and this is his alternative to just talking to us. However, this Holy Spirit appears fairly flawed and this is one of the reasons why I lost my faith.

One reason why I can't trust the Holy Spirit is because anyone can claim it. The problem comes up when people you know and trust claim things in the holy spirit that are blatantly false. For example 2 pastors who both claim to have the holy spirit, but have contradicting messages. One may say money is what God wants and another may say it isn't, but they both have the holy spirit, of course.

Another instance is my stepmother who woke up from a dream and said the holy spirit had told her I was going to run away. It created a massive scene and it was in no way accurate, but she is still completely confident that she knows when the holy spirit is speaking to her, and she isn't unique. I have encountered so many contradictions that came from the holy spirit it is simply a joke at this point for me.

So why do you think the holy spirit contradicts itself? If most of these people don't have the holy spirit, but claim they do, then how do I know who has it and who doesn't? If only one person truly has the holy spirit then that means there are a lot of crazy people out there who think their own mind is a spirit.

Also, do you think this was a good alternative to God just talking to us?

I believe that it is through the Holy Ghost that God has communicated to mankind since the beginning. The problem, as I see it, is that He originally spoke to large groups of believers through prophets. The people accepted those prophets as speaking on behalf of God. They believed that God had communicated His will through His chosen servant, and they trusted the prophet to accurately explain what God wanted them to know. After the death of Jesus Christ and His Apostles, though, men had the scriptures, they had the Holy Ghost to guide them, but there were so many different interpretations of "the truth" that humanity might as well have been left alone. Just listen to people argue over various points of doctrine today. Are we saved by our faith in Christ alone, or are we saved by faith in Christ as evidenced by our obedience to His commandments? I could take either side and argue forcefully for my position, using only the Bible as evidence. If I claim to be sincere in what I believe, it would be rather disingenuous of me to claim that anyone who believes differently is not sincere. Would the Holy Ghost tell me one thing and tell someone else something entirely different? I don't believe so. It is very, very difficult for anyone to have a completely open mind when asking God for wisdom. We all hear the answers we are predisposed to hear. That's not the Holy Ghost's fault and I don't believe it's our fault either. What I personally believe is that prophets are needed in this day and age, for the same reason they were needed anciently. We need to know that, although the Holy Ghost may speak to each of us individually, it is to confirm what God's prophets have heard from God himself and not to lead each of us in an entirely different direction.

 

[Beta]

How do you distinguish false claims from the real ones?

False claims come from people's own minds, their own understanding, their own reasoning without the foundation of God's Word.
If scripture does not verify our religious claims we are somewhat in limbo not knowing or understanding God. It is the written Word of God Mat.4v4 (all we have at present) that proves man right or wrong.

 

[Beta]

The holy spirit character came along when leaders of the christian church drank too many spirits.

That is what some 'falsly' said. Others heard a new doctrine. So it would depend on man's ability to hear what God says !!! And what does that ability come down to ? ATTITUDE !!!

 

[Beta]

If god and HS were real instead of mythical then the evils of this world should be laid at their door as they are the instigators of all that is bad and rotten in this world!

The 'blame-game' always has been favoured by all who shun responsibility ! started right back with Adam and Eve Gen.3. At least they had an excuse since they knew no better.
Has man not got a 'mind' to think and reason with ? Do we not make our own decisions in life ? Do we not yet know the difference between right and wrong ?
It's about time 'mankind' grew up after 6000 years of experience.