Why can't they all agree?

[Beta]

True. And with that in mind, Paul said that the Church was founded upon prophets and apostles -- not just the words of the prophets and apostles, but the offices themselves. With no more prophets and apostles, the foundation upon which the Church was built crumbled and the confusion and disagreement resulted.
I disagree. I believe it fell into apostasy shortly after the death of the last Apostle. Obviously, persecution from the outside was a huge factor, as was internal dissent.
He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. I'm assuming that's what you are referring to and that you are interpreting that statement as meaning "it would never die out." I don't believe that's what he was saying at all.

We are obviously disagreed - is there any point going on ? This is not yet the time when people can easily change their mind. Satan still has a strong hold on the world. :sad4:

 

[Blackdog22]

Possibly, but that doesn't explain why a great many sincere seekers of truth don't seem to be able to agree on so many points of doctrine.

I'm not sure that Sunday worship was defined by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. I believe that is when the doctrine of the Trinity was established. I see the original Church as having fallen into apostasy probably by 200 A.D.

Yeah wrong use of the word, but you kinda get what I am saying. I think it would be false teacher though? I am not actually calling you a false teacher just pointing out the major flaws with this system.

 

[Blackdog22]

You mean 'reality to us' ? We are in the physical realm - God is in the 'spiritual'. If we want to be transferred into His dimension we obviously have to leave behind our own and with it our understanding of life. What is reality here is not reality there :no:.

So God created us in a non real reality for what again? Come on Beta..

 

[Midnight Pete]

Originally posted by blackdog22-- One reason why I can't trust the Holy Spirit is because anyone can claim it. The problem comes up when people you know and trust claim things in the holy spirit that are blatantly false. For example 2 pastors who both claim to have the holy spirit, but have contradicting messages. One may say money is what God wants and another may say it isn't, but they both have the holy spirit, of course.

Another instance is my stepmother who woke up from a dream and said the holy spirit had told her I was going to run away. It created a massive scene and it was in no way accurate, but she is still completely confident that she knows when the holy spirit is speaking to her, and she isn't unique. I have encountered so many contradictions that came from the holy spirit it is simply a joke at this point for me.

The Holy Spirit leaves 9 indicators when it is at work in people. They are easily recognizable and non-falsifiable. They are:

1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Longsuffering
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Temperance

We call these the Fruits of the Holy Spirit.
​

 

[jtartar]

I was thinking back to one of the things that turned me off religion when I was becoming an atheist. That is the problem of the Holy Spirit. One of the biggest things I was taught was that God had sent his Holy Spirit and that is the way he works in us now as opposed to thunderstorms, plagues, floods, burning bushes, giant clouds, donkeys, booming voices, fiery chariots, etc.

So there is a lot riding on the Holy Spirit being true for a believer when God is suddenly quiet and this is his alternative to just talking to us. However, this Holy Spirit appears fairly flawed and this is one of the reasons why I lost my faith.

One reason why I can't trust the Holy Spirit is because anyone can claim it. The problem comes up when people you know and trust claim things in the holy spirit that are blatantly false. For example 2 pastors who both claim to have the holy spirit, but have contradicting messages. One may say money is what God wants and another may say it isn't, but they both have the holy spirit, of course.

Another instance is my stepmother who woke up from a dream and said the holy spirit had told her I was going to run away. It created a massive scene and it was in no way accurate, but she is still completely confident that she knows when the holy spirit is speaking to her, and she isn't unique. I have encountered so many contradictions that came from the holy spirit it is simply a joke at this point for me.

So why do you think the holy spirit contradicts itself? If most of these people don't have the holy spirit, but claim they do, then how do I know who has it and who doesn't? If only one person truly has the holy spirit then that means there are a lot of crazy people out there who think their own mind is a spirit.

Also, do you think this was a good alternative to God just talking to us?

Blackdog,
You are very right in your assessment of people who say they have the Holy Spirit, but their actions belie their statements. BUT, let me ask you,does that make the Holy Spirit responsible for their actions.??? NO! NO!! NO!!!
A very important point to think about: the Holy Spirit is how God accomplishes things. The Holy Spirit is an extension of God Himself. This is so much so that God says that sins against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, not in this system or in that one to come, Matt 12:31,32. Don't you worry, you cannot sin against the Holy Spirit. Only a person who fully understands what he is saying can sin against the HOly Spirit.
There is several terms that point to the reason that some think the Holy Spirit has come upon them or has told them something. One isTheopathy, where a person is overcome with their own emotions, not Holy Spirit. This is emotionalism, where a person puts too much emphasis on their emotions and not enough on reason. Also there is what is called Magical Thinking, where a person wants something to be true so very much that they imagine it is true. Then there is Autosuggestion, where as person keeps thinking about something so much they think it is reality. The fact is autosuggestion can work either for good or bad.
There is a term in theology called Pajonism, which means that the Holy Spirit does not work directly on a person, or actually cause things to happen. God gives His Holy Spirit to people who sincerely ask for it in prayer, and it helps the person to make the BEST POSSIBLE decision at that time.
God only gives His Spirit to people who want to know about Him, and to people who are already in a saved condition. The people who are in a saved condition, a promerit condition, are only people who Know God intimately and love Him and His commandments.
The vast majority of people who think the Holy Spirit has helped them are fooling themselves into this belief. If you really consider these peoples lives, are they really showing that they love God, by learning what is acceptable to God and then doing His word?? Rom 2:13, 12:2, Eph 5:10, 2Cor 13:5, 1John 2:4,5, 5:3, James 1:22.

 

[Katzpur]

This is not yet the time when people can easily change their mind. Satan still has a strong hold on the world. :sad4:

Well, on that much we agree.

 

[Beta]

So God created us in a non real reality for what again? Come on Beta..

You are not reading my post correctly my friend. Of course we are in a reality - but a physical one. God is in a spiritual reality. If we want to be with him we must give up our present reality and become transformed into God's , be born again spiritually Joh.3.

 

[Beta]

Well, on that much we agree.

Every little helps
One day there'll be a break-through !

 

[strikeviperMKII]

I absolutely agree Christine. My point is that then no one can claim anything in the name of the holy spirit, since everyone thinks they have the holy spirit and they are all in contradiction. The holy spirit wouldn't contradict itself, since God wouldn't be fighting against himself, so I am left with the fact that this holy spirit thing is in no way reliable. As a matter of fact, it seems completely worthless since there is no way to know who is "truly" talking through the holy spirit and who isn't. It also means there are a lot of people that think that there own minds are some spirit. If a lot of people can think that then I am left with a very skeptical look at every Christian I encounter who claims to be blessed with the holy spirit, because in all likelihood they aren't the "One" with the holy spirit and in that case I am talking to someone who is insane.

It is hard (nigh impossible) to see in others what you do not see in yourself.
Contradiction does not mean invalid. Agreement does not imply 'right'. One term means that both parties have the same opinion about something, one term means that the two parties differ on the subject. How we think of that subject, whatever it may be, is independent of the subject itself.

 

[Katzpur]

The Holy Spirit leaves 9 indicators when it is at work in people. They are easily recognizable and non-falsifiable. They are:

1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Longsuffering
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Temperance

We call these the Fruits of the Holy Spirit.
​

That's a good list, Pete, but those nine are not the only ones. What about...

1. Charity
2. Mercy
3. Compassion
4. Civility
5. Patience
6. Forgiveness
7. Humility
8. Integrity
9. Hope

 

[naikaidiver]

That's a good list, Pete, but those nine are not the only ones. What about...

1. Charity
2. Mercy
3. Compassion
4. Civility
5. Patience
6. Forgiveness
7. Humility
8. Integrity
9. Hope

Later Day Saints are so much better at this than Christians. lol!

All joking aside guys you both raise some very good arguments that are the foundation of most people of fatih that I have had the pleasure of talking with and some wonderful debates have resulted.

The fundamental difference between your "lists of nine" are that Pete's list was mostly that of emotions themselves where Katzpur's are more actions that are the result of emotions (hopefully). Don't forget guys, there are a lot of negative ones as well.

My argument to both of you is that the dominant and basic emotions we feel are the result of millions of years of evolution and natural selection. A process that is much more testable than "God makes me feel it". The ability to for us to feel these emotions when presented with a given stimuli are what has allowed our species to thrive and become the dominant lifeform on this planet.

If you think about it, species that were unable to love their families, would fail to protect them when they are in danger, or care for them when they are sick, provide comfort in times of fear. Species such as ours that have young that are helpless for so many years of their early lives could not have survived without that trait.

Maybe later I'll go into the workings of neurons and synapsis in the cerebellum and release of endorphins to trigger a physical response.

 

[I'ken Imagine]

If most of these people don't have the holy spirit, but claim they do, then how do I know who has it and who doesn't? ... Also, do you think this was a good alternative to God just talking to us?

What do you think of the possibility that God intends for us to go through this life on the unsure side? After all, if God were to speak to you and to me in no uncertain terms, then how could we refuse? And if THAT were the case, then of what use would faith be to us--how could faith even exist? What "test" would there really be as far as our potential for growth? Moreover, wouldn't such a scenario really be a tacit permutation of Satan's plan for mankind, i.e. no freedom to choose?

 

[Blackdog22]

The Holy Spirit leaves 9 indicators when it is at work in people. They are easily recognizable and non-falsifiable. They are:

1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Longsuffering
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Temperance

We call these the Fruits of the Holy Spirit.
​

So a person can't pretend to be peaceful, happy and kind? The rest are things that can be attributed to most any Christian.

Okay, let me put this another way.

2 very happy, peaceful, faithful, kind, gentle, etc. People both claim opposite things in the holy spirit. The holy spirit does not contradict himself. These 2 people contradict themselves. Which one is an insane false teacher, and which one is actually legit. Now apply this on a global scale and you have lots, and lots of insane people and only a few legit people. Which are which? Which branch of Christianity is truly following the holy spirit?

 

[Blackdog22]

You are not reading my post correctly my friend. Of course we are in a reality - but a physical one. God is in a spiritual reality. If we want to be with him we must give up our present reality and become transformed into God's , be born again spiritually Joh.3.

I get what your saying. It just sounds a little suicidal to an atheist. Okay, so you are wanting to give up whats real and become some sort of transformed ghost. How exactly is that coming along for you I would have to ask? If I can see you haven't you failed? Or when you say we give up reality it means some sort of non real reality?

 

[Blackdog22]

It is hard (nigh impossible) to see in others what you do not see in yourself.
Contradiction does not mean invalid. Agreement does not imply 'right'. One term means that both parties have the same opinion about something, one term means that the two parties differ on the subject. How we think of that subject, whatever it may be, is independent of the subject itself.

So you are of the belief that God can't make up his own mind? If the holy spirit was any sort of real, legit being surely it would at least follow God without contradiction right? I think it was Jesus that spoke of a kingdom divided against itself would crumble. Surely Jesus didn't send a spirit that was divided against itself. Right?

 

[Blackdog22]

What do you think of the possibility that God intends for us to go through this life on the unsure side? After all, if God were to speak to you and to me in no uncertain terms, then how could we refuse? And if THAT were the case, then of what use would faith be to us--how could faith even exist? What "test" would there really be as far as our potential for growth? Moreover, wouldn't such a scenario really be a tacit permutation of Satan's plan for mankind, i.e. no freedom to choose?

You don't think knowledge and choice are separate? Satan knew God existed and he chose not to follow God. I know that Barrack Obama is our president, but I don't have to follow him. Adam and Eve knew of God and chose to disobey. Abraham, Moses, David, Elisha, Paul, The Disciples, Noah, Shadrack, Mishak, and Obindigo. All of these people knew of God, so you think God rejected them or they didn't grow because they knew God? Do you consider Jesus unable to grow since he knew God existed?

When we run into this scenereo it just doesn't make much sense when you follow it through Biblically. If God wanted us to be lost, confused, or unsure, then why does he claim to not be the God of confusion? There are too many arguments to be made against this idea you have presented.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

So you are of the belief that God can't make up his own mind? If the holy spirit was any sort of real, legit being surely it would at least follow God without contradiction right? I think it was Jesus that spoke of a kingdom divided against itself would crumble. Surely Jesus didn't send a spirit that was divided against itself. Right?

You are confusing who is actually divided. God is a mirror. The holy spirit is a mirror. It shows what you expect of it. If you expect it to be unified, every example of it being divided will pop out at you. If you want division, you will only find unity. Expect nothing, and you will see everything.
Be in the conflict, rather than try to resolve it.

 

[Katzpur]

Later Day Saints are so much better at this than Christians. lol!

I'll take that as a compliment even though I consider myself both a Latter-day Saint and a Christian.

The fundamental difference between your "lists of nine" are that Pete's list was mostly that of emotions themselves where Katzpur's are more actions that are the result of emotions (hopefully).

Now that is truly an interesting observation. It wasn't my intention to come up with actions as opposed to emotions, but since that's apparently what I did, I'm glad! Emotions alone are pretty worthless in my opinion.

Don't forget guys, there are a lot of negative ones as well.

I wouldn't consider the negative ones to be fruits of the spirit. Maybe they'd be fruits of a "different" spirit.

 

[naikaidiver]

It was most definitely a compliment in many ways.

I've had a few LDS friends over the years and I've found them to be the most receptive to discussion about any subject. Many Christians become uncomfortable and defensive when discussing any subject that could be deemed a "threat" to their belief system but LDS will (typically) discuss any question about their faith calmly and collectively. If an agreement can't be made, its ok, they were still my friend because they liked me as a person.

I really admire that trait and I wish I had that experience with more faiths. (especially in Alabama!)

 

[Beta]

Blackdog,
The vast majority of people who think the Holy Spirit has helped them are fooling themselves into this belief. If you really consider these peoples lives, are they really showing that they love God, by learning what is acceptable to God and then doing His word?? Rom 2:13, 12:2, Eph 5:10, 2Cor 13:5, 1John 2:4,5, 5:3, James 1:22.

This just about sums it up and everything else you said too. Good post friend !
Scripture says the whole world is deceived (into false beliefs) so strongly they are not aware of deception UNTIL God takes them out of it.