Why can't they all agree?

[Beta]

I liked your post KATZPUR, but can't say I entirely agree with it.
I do not think that the HS speaks to everyone personally.It is just such a claim that brings us confusion and we get all these different opinions. Remember Jesus saying false teachers would arise and deceive many.Another scripture saying the whole world is deceived. All this 'deceiving' has been going on for nearly 2000 years to include the whole world.So we need to look much further back for false religion to have crept in and false teachers to have arisen all claiming the HS and have taken authority to themselves . The HS is only given to those who are willing to obey God, not to all and sundry as yet. People as a whole are not obedient to God which proves their false claim.

 

[jumpingjoy]

The 'blame-game' always has been favoured by all who shun responsibility ! started right back with Adam and Eve Gen.3. At least they had an excuse since they knew no better.
Has man not got a 'mind' to think and reason with ? Do we not make our own decisions in life ? Do we not yet know the difference between right and wrong ?
It's about time 'mankind' grew up after 6000 years of experience.

If Adam and Eve were real people instead of mythical characters the deity entrapped them into eating of the fruit. The god character is to blame for everything if it created us! However as I don't believe the evil biblical god is anymore than a figment of human imagination, we are entirely responsible for our own mess ups.

 

[ellenjanuary]

God does not do sequential time.

When god does do sequential time, god is the Holy Spirit. The problem is the intersection of the discrete and the eternal, the finite and the infinite. A body is a vessel like any other; in this case, it is akin to a teacup in a typhoon. When Jesus alluded to his body being a temple, I contend that his life is an instruction to build a well-ordered house. The more a person is in alignment with god, the less a person needs a bunch of words to explain that alignment; since I have the Holy Spirit through the scientific method, I state -

God is.

Since I understand everything through the Holy Spirit, either I understand the Holy Spirit, or I understand everything; one of those options is more likely than the other. Since I understand god is beyond understanding, any understanding I share among others must be through the Holy Spirit. The problems begin, of course, with I. So rather than say I know anything, I prefer to think you heard me through the Holy Spirit - yet - I am not important. If I communicate with another, but rather than the Holy Spirit; that other hears logic, or satire, or humor... then there was logic, or satire, or humor. Beginning with god is, you can disagree by saying god is not, and I still will have shared all my understanding.

 

[Beta]

If Adam and Eve were real people instead of mythical characters the deity entrapped them into eating of the fruit. The god character is to blame for everything if it created us! However as I don't believe the evil biblical god is anymore than a figment of human imagination, we are entirely responsible for our own mess ups.

You are not making sense to me my friend. If God does not exist for you why do you even mention him and worse...blame him ? That only leaves man responsible for the state of this evil world. What is your solution to human problems, pain and grief ????????????? :help:

 

[PolyHedral]

Technology. It's worked so far.

 

[Beta]

Technology. It's worked so far.

Granted it has it's place - but only up to a point.
Sadly it also has potential for great evil rampant in this world. This will become more apparent as we get closer to the end of this age - so much so that unless God steps in no life would be saved.
I for one will not put my trust in Technology !

 

[Katzpur]

I liked your post KATZPUR, but can't say I entirely agree with it.
I do not think that the HS speaks to everyone personally.It is just such a claim that brings us confusion and we get all these different opinions. Remember Jesus saying false teachers would arise and deceive many.Another scripture saying the whole world is deceived. All this 'deceiving' has been going on for nearly 2000 years to include the whole world.So we need to look much further back for false religion to have crept in and false teachers to have arisen all claiming the HS and have taken authority to themselves . The HS is only given to those who are willing to obey God, not to all and sundry as yet. People as a whole are not obedient to God which proves their false claim.

Well, I definitely would concede that the Holy Spirit is not given to "all and sundry." On the other hand, when one person says, "I believe 'A' because the Holy Ghost bore witness to me that it is true," and another person says, "I believe 'B' because the Holy Spirit testified to me that is it true," who is to believed? Is one of these individuals necessarily more obedient to God than the other one? I agree that the deceiving has been going on for almost as long as Christianity has existed, and it is exactly what Paul said would happen were the original organizational structure of the Church to cease to exist.

 

[seeker69]

Here’s an irrelevant but amusing (to me anyway) anecdote re: the “spirit” speaking to people. I know a lady, a devout individual, who awoke one morning and said she’d been moved by the spirit to go to the casino. She went and won several thousand dollars.

 

[Blackdog22]

False claims come from people's own minds, their own understanding, their own reasoning without the foundation of God's Word.
If scripture does not verify our religious claims we are somewhat in limbo not knowing or understanding God. It is the written Word of God Mat.4v4 (all we have at present) that proves man right or wrong.

Except you can't think without your mind Beta. So if you don't have a mind nothing can come through you because you can't even speak in that case. No matter who is talking it is through their minds in some way and that is why the holy spirit can't ever be trusted and is useless from where I am standing. Seeing as it is all we have to go on that God even exists anymore it seems a little sketchy.

Also, if scripture contradicts itself then how do we verify anything? There is a reason why multiple different denominations of Christianity all have different beliefs and all can back it up with the Bible, that reason is the Book is flawed and the branches of Christianity are the proof.

After reading every response I can still find no use for the holy spirit. It appears to be a pretty bad idea on Gods part and seems to have no point in existing. It appears the idea that no one who speaks in the holy spirit can be trusted is mimicked by some of you. I don't know about anyone else, but I tend not to put my trust in something that has clearly shown itself to not be trusted.

 

[Katzpur]

Also, if scripture contradicts itself then how do we verify anything? There is a reason why multiple different denominations of Christianity all have different beliefs and all can back it up with the Bible, that reason is the Book is flawed and the branches of Christianity are the proof.

It's not so much that the book is flawed and it's not that the Holy Ghost can't be trusted. First off, the book is incomplete. Most Christians refuse to admit that. Secondly, if there was still one individual that Christians could all agree was God's prophet, the problem you have described would not exist. That prophet would act as God's mouthpiece and the Holy Ghost would confirm the truth of his words to everyone.

 

[Zadok]

Well, I definitely would concede that the Holy Spirit is not given to "all and sundry." On the other hand, when one person says, "I believe 'A' because the Holy Ghost bore witness to me that it is true," and another person says, "I believe 'B' because the Holy Spirit testified to me that is it true," who is to believed? Is one of these individuals necessarily more obedient to God than the other one? I agree that the deceiving has been going on for almost as long as Christianity has existed, and it is exactly what Paul said would happen were the original organizational structure of the Church to cease to exist.

Most things in life are very simple. My brother has a saying about compound interest and being able to identify those that understand how compound interest works. If they borrow money and pay compound interest then obviously they do not understand what is going on. If they lend money and receive payments with compound interest they obviously do understand what is going on.

This principle applies to almost everything. How do we tell if someone is influenced by mathematics? It is obvious and easy if they apply the principles of mathematics and obtain the answer. Everyone that applies the principles of mathematics correctly will come up with the same answer. If two people claiming to solve a problem with mathematics come up with different solutions then one or both are misrepresenting what they are really doing and anyone that has knowledge of mathematics will know which is which.

And so it is with the Holy Spirit. Those that understand the principles by which the Holy Spirit is able to influence men will easily recognize a person by their deeds if they are enlightened by a holy intelligence or not.

In general I have learned in life that if a person is not an example of what they say then there is no reason to consider their opinion as worthwhile. Does it surprise anyone that it may be as difficult to find an honest person involved in religion as it is to find an honest person involved in politics? The truth is that most people judge others based on what they want to hear – and thus it is that Democrats believe that only Democrats are honest in politics. It is the same with most concerning religious thinking. If they view religion as we do – then they must be right.

BTW Jesus taught that the most corrupt religion of his day (a Samaritan of all vermin) is more truthful of religion than a priest and Levite – because of the deeds of each.

Zadok

 

[Blackdog22]

Most things in life are very simple. My brother has a saying about compound interest and being able to identify those that understand how compound interest works. If they borrow money and pay compound interest then obviously they do not understand what is going on. If they lend money and receive payments with compound interest they obviously do understand what is going on.

This principle applies to almost everything. How do we tell if someone is influenced by mathematics? It is obvious and easy if they apply the principles of mathematics and obtain the answer. Everyone that applies the principles of mathematics correctly will come up with the same answer. If two people claiming to solve a problem with mathematics come up with different solutions then one or both are misrepresenting what they are really doing and anyone that has knowledge of mathematics will know which is which.

And so it is with the Holy Spirit. Those that understand the principles by which the Holy Spirit is able to influence men will easily recognize a person by their deeds if they are enlightened by a holy intelligence or not.

In general I have learned in life that if a person is not an example of what they say then there is no reason to consider their opinion as worthwhile. Does it surprise anyone that it may be as difficult to find an honest person involved in religion as it is to find an honest person involved in politics? The truth is that most people judge others based on what they want to hear – and thus it is that Democrats believe that only Democrats are honest in politics. It is the same with most concerning religious thinking. If they view religion as we do – then they must be right.

BTW Jesus taught that the most corrupt religion of his day (a Samaritan of all vermin) is more truthful of religion than a priest and Levite – because of the deeds of each.

Zadok

I hate pointing out flaws, but this comparison of mathematics doesn't hold up because Math is a science and religion isn't. There are ways to clearly demonstrate who is right and who is wrong in mathematics, this isn't even possible with religion. With religion its all about who "feels" they are right. If I see 2+2=4 and I say, "I feel this is wrong," most people would laugh at me and rightly so. With religion the guy screaming the loudest might as well be right because who honestly knows?

 

[Blackdog22]

It's not so much that the book is flawed and it's not that the Holy Ghost can't be trusted. First off, the book is incomplete. Most Christians refuse to admit that. Secondly, if there was still one individual that Christians could all agree was God's prophet, the problem you have described would not exist. That prophet would act as God's mouthpiece and the Holy Ghost would confirm the truth of his words to everyone.

I would have to ask how you know the Bible is incomplete? If it isn't by way of the holy spirit then your a false prophet according to the christian belief correct? I have had many people say that it is complete and they claimed to have the holy spirit guiding them. So one or both of you are false prophets and I can't logically put my trust in either.

 

[Beta]

Well, I definitely would concede that the Holy Spirit is not given to "all and sundry." On the other hand, when one person says, "I believe 'A' because the Holy Ghost bore witness to me that it is true," and another person says, "I believe 'B' because the Holy Spirit testified to me that is it true," who is to believed? Is one of these individuals necessarily more obedient to God than the other one? I agree that the deceiving has been going on for almost as long as Christianity has existed, and it is exactly what Paul said would happen were the original organizational structure of the Church to cease to exist.

As I see it verification of the HS can be established. If A claims a truth and B claims it to be different we turn to scripture for the correct answer. I know this is not always quick and easy as it requires study and prayer as well as knowledge of the Word but with patience we can get there.
The original structure of the ONE TRUE Church did cease with the persecution and death of the Apostles and their followers around 325 AD when sunday-worship was established by what is known today as the RC Church.

 

[Katzpur]

I would have to ask how you know the Bible is incomplete?

All you have to do is read the book to know that. When you get to Joshua 10:13 and it refers to the book of Jasher, try finding Jasher. 2 Samuel 1:18 will mention the book of Jasher again. Evidently Jasher was considered to be scripture at one time. 1 and 2 Chronicles will direct you to the book of Nathan the prophet, the book of Gad the seer, the prophecy of Ahijah, the visions of Iddo the seer, the book of Shemaiah the prophet, the visions of Iddo the seer, the book of Shemaiah the prophet and many other writings deemed to be sacred in Old Testament times, though none of them exist today. Even in the New Testament, you'll find mention of Paul's epistle to the Laodiceans, an additional epistle of Jude and others. And of course John says that if everything Jesus had said and done had been recorded, all of the books in the world could not hold the record. Finally, the Christian canon has changed multiple times over time. Everything in today's canon was not in the earliest known canon and visa versa. Which "Bible" is complete?

If it isn't by way of the holy spirit then your a false prophet according to the christian belief correct?

I don't claim to be a prophet. I just claim to have a rudimentary knowledge of the canon, which is something that anyone who claims the Bible is complete obviously doesn't have.

I have had many people say that it is complete and they claimed to have the holy spirit guiding them. So one or both of you are false prophets and I can't logically put my trust in either.

It doesn't have anything to do with being a prophet, but I don't really care whether you trust me or not.

 

[Katzpur]

As I see it verification of the HS can be established. If A claims a truth and B claims it to be different we turn to scripture for the correct answer. I know this is not always quick and easy as it requires study and prayer as well as knowledge of the Word but with patience we can get there.

Possibly, but that doesn't explain why a great many sincere seekers of truth don't seem to be able to agree on so many points of doctrine.

The original structure of the ONE TRUE Church did cease with the persecution and death of the Apostles and their followers around 325 AD when sunday-worship was established by what is known today as the RC Church.

I'm not sure that Sunday worship was defined by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. I believe that is when the doctrine of the Trinity was established. I see the original Church as having fallen into apostasy probably by 200 A.D.

 

[Beta]

Possibly, but that doesn't explain why a great many sincere seekers of truth don't seem to be able to agree on so many points of doctrine.
I'm not sure that Sunday worship was defined by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. I believe that is when the doctrine of the Trinity was established. I see the original Church as having fallen into apostasy probably by 200 A.D.

There is no other way of establishing Truth but by the Word of God.So what we need to do is to examine traditional beliefs in the light of God's Word. We can of course start with any belief but to save a lot of 'digging' we could start with the most simple and obvious which is also the most basic and foundational. If the foundation is not right nothing else will fit correctly and we get confusion and disagreement.
Btw, the original Church did not fall into apostacy at that time but they suffered severe persecution as we see most (perhaps all) known Apostles put to death for their belief in Jesus' new teaching. Even Paul lost his head. Eventually that persecuted Church went underground or departed the country . Jesus said it would never die out so it obviously is still in existence but not as a denomination of this world.

 

[PolyHedral]

There is no other way of establishing Truth but by the Word of God.

Apparently, reality takes a back seat.

 

[Katzpur]

If the foundation is not right nothing else will fit correctly and we get confusion and disagreement.

True. And with that in mind, Paul said that the Church was founded upon prophets and apostles -- not just the words of the prophets and apostles, but the offices themselves. With no more prophets and apostles, the foundation upon which the Church was built crumbled and the confusion and disagreement resulted.

Btw, the original Church did not fall into apostacy at that time but they suffered severe persecution as we see most (perhaps all) known Apostles put to death for their belief in Jesus' new teaching. Even Paul lost his head.

I disagree. I believe it fell into apostasy shortly after the death of the last Apostle. Obviously, persecution from the outside was a huge factor, as was internal dissent.

Eventually that persecuted Church went underground or departed the country . Jesus said it would never die out so it obviously is still in existence but not as a denomination of this world.

He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. I'm assuming that's what you are referring to and that you are interpreting that statement as meaning "it would never die out." I don't believe that's what he was saying at all.

 

[Beta]

Apparently, reality takes a back seat.

You mean 'reality to us' ? We are in the physical realm - God is in the 'spiritual'. If we want to be transferred into His dimension we obviously have to leave behind our own and with it our understanding of life. What is reality here is not reality there :no:.