I am not sure you are just having fun or being serious !
Have you really no knowledge of scripture ?
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Why can't they all agree?
- Thread starter Blackdog22
- Start date
Have you really no knowledge of scripture ?
God can make that claim because HE DID NOT create mankind to be lost or confused or to be in any other negative state. These are the result of OUR OWN WRONG thinking and WRONG choices.
What God created us for is to learn from Him how to live a better life so we can be ' born again ' into His Kingdom by a resurrection from the dead Rom.1v4, :yes:
Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
I am not sure you are just having fun or being serious !
Have you really no knowledge of scripture ?
I have quite a bit of knowledge on scripture, at least in its English translation. I just want some form of explanation for what your talking about. Your trying to refuse reality to exist in another reality with God, but your still here in reality. Do you mean when you die? If not then your speaking in rehearsed verses that make no sense, at least logically.
Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
So we came to be in a negative state on accident? Did we take God by surprise? Also beta you can't make a choice about something that you can't in anyways sense. God gave us senses and then hid himself from all of our senses, how exactly is that not confusing. If God wanted us to know him, we would. Either way, if God honestly had anything to do with the Bible then he is very, very confusing. Just ask the many denominations of Christianity, they are proof that the Bible is confusing. If God declares he isn't confusing then by default isn't God either A) a Liar or B) The Bible wasn't made by him( by way of man).
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
I don't think the Holy Spirit is exclusive to any particular branch of Christianity, or even to Christians for that matter.
You're either peaceful or you're not.
You're either happy or you're not.
You're either kind or you're not.
Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
Yeah, which is cool and all, but were still left with different happy people claiming to have the holy spirit who contradict themselves. If the holy spirit is Gods spirit then you are claiming God doesn't have his mind made up and contradicts himself on a daily basis? If your not claiming that, then there are a LOT of crazy people who think that there own minds are Gods spirit. This makes me very skeptical of any Christian because the odds are.......... Yeah.
Also when you consider the idea that the only proof any Christians can give you when asked seriously is they "felt" his holy spirit. Well, your left with a pretty big mess of obvious lies for the most part. If someone "truly" has the spirit then I would have no way of knowing who and how. Again.... Anyone can be happy and anyone can be sad. Jesus was sad before he died, did he not have the holy spirit?
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Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
I understsand why people are skeptical of Christians. I get it.
You either take someone at his word or you don't.
I resent that. It's ignorant.
Yes, you would. The fruits of the Spirit can be observed in another person if you care to look.
Are you referring to Jesus' agony in the Garden of Gesthemane?
Do you think atheists that are peaceful, happy and kind have the Holy Spirit?
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
Ouch, I don't blame you for responding like that, but I didn't mean this how you took it. At least I don't think so.
I didn't mean your belief is an obvious lie, I meant that if there is only one holy spirit and if that spirit doesn't contradict itself, then most of the groups who claim the have the holy spirit are lies. Like if the holy spirit is used to interpret the Bible, and he doesn't contradict himself, then just by reason we can only conclude that one of the denominations of Christianity is truly guided by the holy spirit. This means that most denominations can only be false. This is quite a big hurdle for me to ignore if I ever decided to go back to Christianity.
Wombat
Active Member
Why is " people claiming to have the holy spirit who contradict themselves" a problem for God and/or the consideration of the viability of the God/Holy Spirit proposition?
Why is it not simply a matter of either group of people "claiming to have the holy spirit" being wrong...or even both groups being wrong?
The propisition was put several posts back that the best indication of having "the spirit" would not come from any "claim" but rather from observable deeds and the impact of those deeds.
"Let deeds not words be your adorning" Baha'u'llah
[/quote]
I don't know how any assumed correlation between 'The Holy Spirit' and being "happy or sad" came about......but frankly it strikes me as completely false and shallow.
In addition, what would lead anyone to conclude that the influence of the Holy Spirit was a constant/enduring state (even for the man Jesus?) that precludes any subsequent sorrow?
Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
That is exactly what I am trying to get at. I don't see how most of these people except a few could actually have the holy spirit. I do think these are just people, and that is the point. Just people, no God.
Yeah those deeds essentially came down to kindness, goodness, giving, loving, etc. Atheists can be good people too, this argument doesn't even make sense.
Remember that post a few pages back that you just mentioned? Yeah according to it joy is one of the ways you can know. So think about it, if you have the Holy Spirit your always happy all the time? If not then you are saying that Joy isn't one of the factors, either that or you believe that no atheist is ever happy at any point in time.
Wombat
Active Member
Perhaps no more than " a few" do. But there is no empirical test to determine which ones...nor is anything they say a determinant...nor any "contradiction" between what they say a guide.
That still leaves the posibility of people being influenced by a/the Holy Spirit. It's not that weird a notion...throughout history artists, musicians, inventors have described thier greatest works as having come "through them" not 'from them'. They recognise the creative process and what belongs to thier efforts and yet report trancendent inspiration from something other than themselves.
Maybe, maybe not. When the deeds become exta ordinary and coincide with reports/ claims of some trancendent influence I am neither compelled to believe nor disbelieve...but keep an open mind to the possibility.
Um...yea. When was it suggested that Atheists can't be good people? And/or inspired by the 'numinous'? or 'muse'? or (despite thier disbelief) even be inspired by Holy Spirit?
Phillip Adams...one of the great contemporary atheists and skeptics often speaks of the numinous and the trancendent...doesn't mean he believes in God...but he is not clossed to such considerations.
Fred Hollows...fantastic irascible old athiest that he was devoted his lifes work to "kindness, goodness, giving, loving"...is it possible Fred was touched by Holy Spirit? Could be. Is it possible Fred did it all off his own bat? Could be.
I'm no more interested in someones claim to be moved by the Holy Spirit than I am of someones denial/rejection of such a thing....only interested in deeds reflecting-"kindness, goodness, giving, loving"
Yea...I remember describing an old Aboriginal man who (given the hand life/God/society had dealt him) had every right to be broken and imbittered. And yet...trancended his experience and met all (even enemies) with love, acceptance and a great deal of joy. Part of his story was one of faith...but he never laid claim to influence of Holy Spirit...that was something others observed of his deeds and character. As the local Mayor so eloquently put it- "Banjo Clarke is one of those individuals upon whom God has put his finger....and when God puts his finger on someone no other b@$tard can touch them".
The vast majority of the people who met old Banjo experienced and expressed similar feelings of trancendence/out of the ordinary/radiance.
I still can't see why that would be assumed to be the case.
Um....No. That conclusion does not follow. Joy can remain "one of the factors" but that does not necessitate that it is constant/unwavering/endless joy.
Love is also a factor...but the feeling of love is not necessary to expressing love in deed....ask any parent.
Nope. Don't believe that and have no idea how such a conclusion could be
logically reached.
All the best.
Rod
Of course our spiritual reality will exist when we have been resurrected into the KGD of God, it can not be before. Now we are still in the physical reality and only learning about our spiritual future. But even so it becomes more and more real as we are converted and transformed.
Please remember I am not your traditional Christian who thinks he is already born again while in his carnal state. We are born again by a resurrection from the dead not before (as was Jesus) Rom.1v4. Also I believe in keeping the 10 Commandments and the appointed Feast-days of God Lev.23 - something trad Xians know little or nothing about. I can understand you being somewhat confused at what I say but since based on scripture should not be too difficult to perceive.
I'm going to keep this reply really short so as not to confuse you or anyone else further.
The Bible is confusing to those who are DISOBRDIENT to God's Word !!! It is confusing to all who put their own spin on it !!! :yes:
.lava
Veteran Member
i think it is sad to know there are people who lost their faith over false information. there's a saying here, in Turkey. kind of like this: 'Half Imam would cause men his faith' by saying half it refers to knowledge of course and i believe that is truth in this saying
.
Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
Biblically the Holy Spirit is something that has to be accepted. God will not force his spirit upon anyone who doesn't want it. So the thinking that an atheist would receive the Holy Spirit isn't too, too likely. Also in the Bible the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are a feeling of fire, speaking in languages you don't know, but are known by the world, like Italian. It is also to be connected with God. If you know of any atheist who has had this happen to them let me know, I would like to talk with them.
See above, as for the others, I don't know enough about numinous or muse to speak on them.
Absolutely, but the discussion still remains. I find this is a fairly strong objection to the idea of Christianity as a whole. Even though there maybe one who actually has the appropriate spirit.
I would of liked to meet him. However, the Holy Spirit could only be assumed, it could never be proven. I go back to my argument of kind Atheists who, according to the bible, can't receive the Holy Spirit.
Exactly, if joy is a factor, but someone can be sad for an entire week, then the criteria you are judging people on, for the presence of the Holy Spirit, is flawed and not very helpful in determining who is or isn't one with the Holy Spirit.
Because if any and all types of people can be happy or sad on any given day and being happy is part of your criteria for judging someone as having the Holy Spirit then the criteria for judging is flawed, severely. You can in no way say who has the Holy Spirit or who doesn't. If a Christian is clinically depressed for an entire year without joy then should he be outcasted by the community for not having the Holy Spirit? If the first time you saw Jesus he was weeping in the garden, begging God to not let him die, then would it be assumed he had no Holy Spirit? My point with these examples are to show rather than tell, that the criteria of judging someones access to the Holy Spirit being of deeds or emotions is a very flawed system.
So we are back at where we started.
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Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
Well, we are raised with biases and preconceptions of certain ideas. Our minds are molded, that is just a fact, as we grow. So no matter what we read it will be interpreted in our own way, there is no way around that. God set our minds up to work the way they do, surely they didn't "accidentally" come to be this way? Okay, so God made us diverse and created a book that can be interpreted many difference ways, and our minds, that God created, interpret things in many different ways, that lend themselves to that possibility.
It is still confusing Beta, but God isn't supposed to be confusing.
I could also say that God changing everyones language during the Tower Of Babel incident made life extremely confusing. Whats more confusing than someone speaking jibberish at you? According to the Bible God did this, very confusing, act, but also doesn't do things that are confusing in that very, same Bible.
Confused yet?
Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
It wasn't so much false information as it was people who were trusted by any and all had contradicting messages to another who were trusted by any and all. Both sides of the party claimed to have the Holy Spirit. The community judging them claimed that each pastor had the Holy Spirit, but the opposing communities said that the other pastor didn't have the Holy Spirit.
This scenerio only ends in one way, that lots of people on one of the sides can't be trusted. There own judgments can't be trusted, and the spirit they claim to have isn't there, but they believe its there with everything in them. This just highlights the fact that one of these groups, and very possibly, both groups are in fact lies.
Also, please don't think I lost my faith so easily. There are many, many more reasons I could give. However, based on evidence that we can actually measure, this is a fairly solid argument against the idea of a Holy Spirit and thus against the Bible and Jesus.(If you don't know how they are all connected, I suggest looking it up, for the people who don't)