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why can't we have a relationship with other men?

A

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Leftimies said:
Its a defect, for sure. But so is epilepsy, diabetes, adhd and a whole number of things.
So in my view, there are two things to be changed:

Straight people must realize that defect quality is not necessarily a bad thing. It can produce things, albeit in different fields of life. Especially in art this is evident.
Gay people must stop insisting that its natural, since it is defect. And they also must realize that there is nothing to be ashamed of such harmless, potentially beautiful defect.

Cool? Cool. Now this thread is rendered obsolete and requires no further posting XD
Click to expand...

How about a genius IQ?

Defect?
 
Leftimies

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
AmbiguousGuy said:
How about a genius IQ?

Defect?
Click to expand...

Does it cause harm for the bodily functions and for the purpose those bodily mechanisms exist? No, I suppose not, so thereby I wouldn't classify genius IQ as a defect. I am no genius though, so I wouldn't know.

My point being - epilepsy causes harm to body, and purpose of reproduction is made more difficult (assuming it is seen as undesirable);
Diabetes a condition of bodily system malfunctioning;
ADHD is a malfunction of brain's capability digest and cut off impulses (whether or not this is just extension to personality is a subject to debate);
Homosexuality is of course direct disregard of evolutionary purpose - and all of human body and qualities ultimately exist to enforce that purpose.

Does all this mean, that these peoples' right to exist as individuals and experience life's joys should be negated? Of Course NOT! But all this talk about naturality of homosexuality makes me put an amused grin on my face. Can you see my logic?
 
A

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Leftimies said:
Does it cause harm for the bodily functions and for the purpose those bodily mechanisms exist? No, I suppose not, so thereby I wouldn't classify genius IQ as a defect. I am no genius though, so I wouldn't know.
Click to expand...

As a humble genius, I can tell you that my genius has been a horrible burden in my life and has caused me much harm. A brain was never intended for the perverse things which I have done with mine, trust me! Verily I have poked it into places where it was never intended to be poked.

What does 'harm for the bodily functions' mean?

And may I ask what your native language is? You write English well, but there is still some small interference which makes me uncertain that I understand you as I should. [Edit: Nevermind this question. I just noticed your location.]

Homosexuality is of course direct disregard of evolutionary purpose - and all of human body and qualities ultimately exist to enforce that purpose.
Click to expand...

Nonsense. You're claiming that unmarried women are defective? Catholic priests are defective?

You can't seriously believe that every creature is made for the explicit purpose to reproduce himself?? Have you ever studied the weird reproductive strategies of various creatures? It is not the case that every individual in a species group is bound to reproduce himself.

Of Course NOT! But all this talk about naturality of homosexuality makes me put an amused grin on my face. Can you see my logic?
Click to expand...

I'm afraid I see a logic which seems to be a bit misdirected by personal bias.

Let's say you are from India. Well, if I have a bias against Indians, I can make my logic conclude that being born Indian is a defect. But if I have no bias against Indians, then I can make my logic conclude that Indians are fine and dandy.

See what I mean?
 
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Leftimies

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
Truth_Faith13 said:
Is this thread seriously comparing homosexuality to diabetes and epilepsy?
Click to expand...

Why shouldn't I? I didn't realize that for some people sexuality is some how holy, sacred matter separate from bodily functions. Its not divine. It originates from brain and body. Thus, malfunctioning sexuality is not really a matter too different from malfunctioning metabolic system. Sure they are separate in how they malfunction, and what the ensuing implications are.

It is rather insane that this kind of logic cannot be presented in modern days, unless one wishes to be labelled as a bigot. I certainly have ran into plenty of flak, yet people won't even care if I tell them actually possess three such defects myself: epilepsy (dormant), adhd and pansexual orientation. I mean, a person who has none of these flaws has no right to tell me I am wrong. I think I have given it more thought.
 
A

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Leftimies said:
It is rather insane that this kind of logic cannot be presented in modern days, unless one wishes to be labelled as a bigot. I certainly have ran into plenty of flak, yet people won't even care if I tell them actually possess three such defects myself: epilepsy (dormant), adhd and pansexual orientation. I mean, a person who has none of these flaws has no right to tell me I am wrong. I think I have given it more thought.
Click to expand...

You are welcome to think of homosexuality as a flaw, just as other people may think of black skin as a flaw.

But you shouldn't be surprised or outraged when other people see your attitude as perhaps biased.
 
T

Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
Leftimies said:
Why shouldn't I? I didn't realize that for some people sexuality is some how holy, sacred matter separate from bodily functions. Its not divine. It originates from brain and body. Thus, malfunctioning sexuality is not really a matter too different from malfunctioning metabolic system. Sure they are separate in how they malfunction, and what the ensuing implications are.

It is rather insane that this kind of logic cannot be presented in modern days, unless one wishes to be labelled as a bigot. I certainly have ran into plenty of flak, yet people won't even care if I tell them actually possess three such defects myself: epilepsy (dormant), adhd and pansexual orientation. I mean, a person who has none of these flaws has no right to tell me I am wrong. I think I have given it more thought.
Click to expand...

Why have you given it more thought just because you have said defects (to use your own term). That's quite a pedistool you have created for yourself.

As I said above homosexuality is neither an illness nor life debilitating which diabetes and epilepsy are. Homosexuality has got nothing to do with the function of the body and is definitely not a defect...a homosexuals body works perfectly well (assuming they are healthy and don't have epilepsy and diabetes :rolleyes: ) diabetese and epilepsy can kill you, homosexuality can't.

I should probably mention at this point that I don't agree with the act of homosexuality (not to be confused with the person who happens to be homosexual)
 
Sees

Sees

Dragonslayer
It is a wonderful thing when we look at things with a fresh, free, honest mind in attempts of understanding and learning... doesn't it feel a little sickening in the bottom of your stomach when you only look for tidbits to support your current level of knowledge and understanding?

Seems like there is still way too much willful ignorance and stubbornness for sexuality issues. Same scriptures making homosexuality a sin also say we should put very unruly children to death, but yet there is only a current stance on homosexuality out of convenience and bigotry. Should be a huge wake up call to look at issues in modern terms with integrity and flexibility.
 
Leftimies

Leftimies

Dwelling in the Principle
Truth_Faith13 said:
Why have you given it more thought just because you have said defects (to use your own term). That's quite a pedistool you have created for yourself.

As I said above homosexuality is neither an illness nor life debilitating which diabetes and epilepsy are. Homosexuality has got nothing to do with the function of the body and is definitely not a defect...a homosexuals body works perfectly well (assuming they are healthy and don't have epilepsy and diabetes :rolleyes: ) diabetese and epilepsy can kill you, homosexuality can't.

I should probably mention at this point that I don't agree with the act of homosexuality (not to be confused with the person who happens to be homosexual)
Click to expand...

Let me just make it clear, I have no problem with gay people. Its not in me to hate like that. They can contribute to society in other ways, say, the emotional baggage many gays carry allows them to define themselves better, and arguably, makes them more determined in their pursuit of goals - thus, perhaps, more productive members of society.

I only have problem when a person capable of having a kid doesn't have one.
Imagine you would have an offspring, who experiences joys and sorrows of life, who contributes to society in his/hers way, influences other people, has children of his/her own...they do the same things in their cycle, and have kids of their own...etc.
By making the decision to prefer sexual pleasure over family raising one erases possibly hundreds of years of future life experience for others, that would otherwise exist. Doesn't this make anyone feel sadness, this prospect? Am I the only one? After all, the very purpose of ancestral worship is to express gratitude for them and their choice of continuing the bloodline - without their choice back then, we wouldn't exist. Its the same logic - and it has been practiced in several great, high cultures. For what its worth, it lends my point some merit.

Now, is the purpose of sexuality not to encourage an individual to reproduce? The very attribute of sexuality is not that of servant, a tool for pleasure, but that of encourager, that which drives us to continue bloodline? I don't see this happening in homosexuality.

Then again...speculation is never productive. What could be, could be. What is, is. I do not hate people who didn't do it the way Uncle Evolution does. And I feel anger when people label me bigot. I just...love life too much to not have issue with this. However, let others do as they please. I have no sovereignty over their lives, this I recognize.
 
Uberpod

Uberpod

Active Member
Leftimies said:
Homosexuality is of course direct disregard of evolutionary purpose - and all of human body and qualities ultimately exist to enforce that purpose.
Click to expand...
Incorrect!! That might be true in animals, but not in humans. Here's a nifty thread that explains why homosexuality in humans is an evolutionary advantage for the species if more stubborn straight-weight would budge: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/ethics-morals/154811-gay-reproduction-may-more-moral-than.html
 
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T

Truth_Faith13

Well-Known Member
Leftimies said:
Let me just make it clear, I have no problem with gay people. Its not in me to hate like that. They can contribute to society in other ways, say, the emotional baggage many gays carry allows them to define themselves better, and arguably, makes them more determined in their pursuit of goals - thus, perhaps, more productive members of society.

I only have problem when a person capable of having a kid doesn't have one.
Imagine you would have an offspring, who experiences joys and sorrows of life, who contributes to society in his/hers way, influences other people, has children of his/her own...they do the same things in their cycle, and have kids of their own...etc.
By making the decision to prefer sexual pleasure over family raising one erases possibly hundreds of years of future life experience for others, that would otherwise exist. Doesn't this make anyone feel sadness, this prospect? Am I the only one? After all, the very purpose of ancestral worship is to express gratitude for them and their choice of continuing the bloodline - without their choice back then, we wouldn't exist. Its the same logic - and it has been practiced in several great, high cultures. For what its worth, it lends my point some merit.

Now, is the purpose of sexuality not to encourage an individual to reproduce? The very attribute of sexuality is not that of servant, a tool for pleasure, but that of encourager, that which drives us to continue bloodline? I don't see this happening in homosexuality.

Then again...speculation is never productive. What could be, could be. What is, is. I do not hate people who didn't do it the way Uncle Evolution does. And I feel anger when people label me bigot. I just...love life too much to not have issue with this. However, let others do as they please. I have no sovereignty over their lives, this I recognize.
Click to expand...

They are productive members of society because they have emotional baggage? :rolleyes::facepalm: have you actually read what you have written? That's absurd! They are productive members of society because they are human beings just like you and me...you are making it sound like them being gay makes them a different species - it doesn't! They're human!

As another poster has pointed out there are many straight people who choose not to have children...what about them?
 
Saint Frankenstein

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Leftimies said:
Let me just make it clear, I have no problem with gay people. Its not in me to hate like that. They can contribute to society in other ways, say, the emotional baggage many gays carry allows them to define themselves better, and arguably, makes them more determined in their pursuit of goals - thus, perhaps, more productive members of society.

I only have problem when a person capable of having a kid doesn't have one.
Imagine you would have an offspring, who experiences joys and sorrows of life, who contributes to society in his/hers way, influences other people, has children of his/her own...they do the same things in their cycle, and have kids of their own...etc.
By making the decision to prefer sexual pleasure over family raising one erases possibly hundreds of years of future life experience for others, that would otherwise exist. Doesn't this make anyone feel sadness, this prospect? Am I the only one? After all, the very purpose of ancestral worship is to express gratitude for them and their choice of continuing the bloodline - without their choice back then, we wouldn't exist. Its the same logic - and it has been practiced in several great, high cultures. For what its worth, it lends my point some merit.

Now, is the purpose of sexuality not to encourage an individual to reproduce? The very attribute of sexuality is not that of servant, a tool for pleasure, but that of encourager, that which drives us to continue bloodline? I don't see this happening in homosexuality.

Then again...speculation is never productive. What could be, could be. What is, is. I do not hate people who didn't do it the way Uncle Evolution does. And I feel anger when people label me bigot. I just...love life too much to not have issue with this. However, let others do as they please. I have no sovereignty over their lives, this I recognize.
Click to expand...

There are thousands of animal species who partake in not only homosexuality, but other non-reproductive forms of sex - solo masturbation, mutual masturbation, oral sex, anal sex (yes, animals do that too), rubbing against each other, etc. There's some species of dolphins which even have an "extra" hole in the female that is used for non-reproductive sex.

So, obviously, reproduction isn't the sole purpose for sexual activity.

I also take offense at your words about people who choose not to have children. I am a transsexual and when I begin hormone therapy, it will make me sterile. However, I would like to adopt. There's millions of children throughout the world who need loving homes. Don't they deserve a chance? It's not like the human race is in danger of dying out.
 
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