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why can't we have a relationship with other men?

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
We can be against adultery, and believe that the adulterer should be stoned, but do our own sins keep us from executing that judgment? Sure, but just because we cannot execute judgment at this present point in time, it doesn't make committing adultery right, and G-d's judgment stands. So if I am bigoted against adultery, it's not that I am bigoting individuals, but rather I'm bigoted against that sin. Does that make any sense? KB

I don't believe that God condemns adultery. How could He? Adultery is only a word.

I think lots of people are confused by words, believing them to be real things. It's why if someone is going to worship an ancient text, I think he should let his heart lead the way rather than his intellect. The intellect is easily confused by words, and that confusion can lead to great harm in the world. But the heart, if it is true, will see through the words and instruct the intellect in their proper interpretation.

Homosexuality harms no one. Gay people are generally some of the best people I've ever known. I enjoy them more than straights for the most part.

So if your intellect thinks that God condemns homosexuality, I think you should instruct your heart to provide you with a truer interpretation of the words which you've decided to worship.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I don't believe that God condemns adultery. How could He? Adultery is only a word.
Adultery is an act and is an objective fact. The word adultery is a tool of language used to describe an act carried out in reality and God condems the act in no uncertain terms. Just when I get out you suck me back in again.



Homosexuality harms no one. Gay people are generally some of the best people I've ever known. I enjoy them more than straights for the most part.
You must have skipped the page after page of studies I and several others gave.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Until you can uncouple promiscuity and homosexuality you are arguing irrelevant degrees.

Except that it's pretty much only the promiscuous homosexuals who have problems.

I will not say I know what it is but something is without doubt forcing you to challenge the conclusions of every statistic provided even from the site you said you trusted.
Yeah. Intelligence.

This must be a typeO. The greatest key to success in any attempt is adherence to truth. That is why the word disciple is rooted in discipline. A society of geniuses that have no discipline will destroy it's self very quickly.
Too bad the world doesn't adhere to that model.

That is funny. Please see the above post and the poem in it. It describes the lunacy in that claim.
No poetry. That's an appeal to emotion, not intellect.

No you have instead to be worried about being killed in the womb before you draw a breath,

No, I don't. I'm already here. Those who are still in the womb are not capable of such worry.

being melted down or frozen out in a nuclear holocaust,
The cold war is over.

being saturated with a weaponized virus that feeds on antibiotics, or having your lungs boil out of your chest after being covered in a mist of a chemical agent.
I don't worry about either of those things.

Your claims concern technology more than moral advancement. There have been rough patches in history but within the last 50 years we have for the first time learned how kill us all off and at least twice we were on the very brink.
Hah. Far more often than that. One time, it almost happened because a monkey wandered into a military base. Still, the cold war is over.

Are you suggesting the standard of living is a way to measure morality or a result of moral evolution?
I'm suggesting that standard of living is a way to measure how well a society is doing. You claimed that moral degeneration leads to a terrible society. Yet, we're doing just fine. Therefore, there isn't moral degeneration.

We're just going through a paradigm shift. It will settle down in time.

Let me look into this. I have never heard anyone break the US down by religious regions. I have heard that the US is 80% Christians and very high in incarceration but they are not linked. We are 100% free
No, we're not.

and have a criminal philosophy skewed very much in the direction of letting many guilty go to save a few innocent people from being convicted and that is the actual reason.
Letting the guilty go is better than punishing the innocent, which is the way it used to be.

I did not mean pot. I meant riddilin. No child I ever knew took psycho meds while in school. Now a large percentage are doped up.
But they took meds, right?

Data shows very clearly same sex parents contribute to troubled children.
Not the data I've seen.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Except that it's pretty much only the promiscuous homosexuals who have problems.
Hey you can't wait until I forget about an argument and bring it up days later. I have the memory span of sub-atomic particle. If you can show that promiscuity and homosexuality are unrelated maybe but the data links them undeniably.

Yeah. Intelligence.
If that is what you call adopting a position in spite of all the data it will have to do I guess.
Too bad the world doesn't adhere to that model.
Preach on it.
No poetry. That's an appeal to emotion, not intellect.
Not in this case. It was an accurate description of the trends in modern morality set in a poetic style.
No, I don't. I'm already here. Those who are still in the womb are not capable of such worry.
That was not meant from a personal point of view but a general comment on society.

The cold war is over.
Are you suggesting that all the nukes were shipped to Mars. The threat of a lunatic terrorist getting a nuke from a broke Russia that would sell its soul is far more real than a planet ending war ever was but we almost had one anyway twice.
I don't worry about either of those things.
My not worrying about death won't make it any less of a threat.
Hah. Far more often than that. One time, it almost happened because a monkey wandered into a military base. Still, the cold war is over.
The cold war is only whanging players and we have added terrorists with the capability and for the first time the will to kill millions. What monkey?

I'm suggesting that standard of living is a way to measure how well a society is doing. You claimed that moral degeneration leads to a terrible society. Yet, we're doing just fine. Therefore, there isn't moral degeneration.
Creature comforts are no indicator of the moral or even social health of a society.

We're just going through a paradigm shift. It will settle down in time.
All the trends are bad.
No, we're not.
You are right let me restate. We have traditionally been the most free society on Earth and have had very high crime. I claim they are intrinsically related.
Letting the guilty go is better than punishing the innocent, which is the way it used to be.
I knew you were going to say that. I never said it was wrong I just said that is what we have.

But they took meds, right?
Not Psycho meds because their home life was a nightmare.
Not the data I've seen.
I would supply it if you had shown it would be allowed to settle anything.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
LOL okay. Tell you what, I'll list a few commandments, not based on my judgement on your behavior (hint hint: that's not for me to decide, nor anyone else for that matter). But based on your assumptions that the mitzvot is relevant - even those that can be observed after the destruction of the second temple. So, because I like to play for run:

Are you allowed to have sex with a woman who is menstruating?

Should a rapist marry his victim? Is he ever allowed to divorce her?

How about shaving your beard with a razor? Or even the hair on the sides of your head?

Keep a kosher household?

Allowed to muzzle an ox while plowing?

There's quite a few commandments about giving to the poor and the destitute. As well as not pressing the poor for payment if you know they do not have the money. Is that to be followed today?

Are the commandments followed regarding corpses?

.

.

.

Out of all of them, there is ONE commandment saying "A man must not have sexual relations with a man." Another says "A man must not have sexual relations with an animal." And yet another says "A woman must not have sexual relations with an animal."

But there are NONE that says "A woman must not have sexual relations with a woman."

Why is that, KB?

I agree it is not as rigorus or specific. However:

Romans 1:24-27
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Romans 1:26

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;

What Does the Bible Say About Lesbians?

There’s an implication in Romans 1:26 that lesbianism is even worse than male homosexuality. Notice the phrase “even their women.” The text seems to suggest that it is more common for men to engage in sexual depravity, and when women begin to do it, that is a sign things are getting really bad. Men usually have much stronger sex drives than women, and so are more prone to sexual deviancy. When women commit unnatural sexual acts, then the degree of immorality has truly become shameful. Lesbianism is evidence of people being given over to “the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another” (Romans 1:24).

What does the Bible say about being a lesbian? Does the Bible mention lesbianism?

I have tried and argue from science not religion but I have been accused of it anyway so I might as well be guilty of it as well. Not much of a crime.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
You must have skipped the page after page of studies I and several others gave.

But I have already commented on those studies. All that the legitimate ones show is that homosexuals "generally" have more medical problems than heterosexuals do, not that the majority of homosexuals have any serious medical problem.

You said that homosexuality is harmful. Harmful to what percentage of homosexuals?

Please provide statistics that deal with percentages of all homosexuals, not just homosexuals who have medical problems as compared with heterosexuals who have medical problems.

The majority of homosexuals are not alcoholics, drug abusers, or pedophiles, and do not have HIV/AIDS.

Please provide your definition of the word "harmful."

Do you not know that health is experienced individually, not collectively?

You said that there is never any justification for homosexuality, but that is completely false, and every major medical association disagrees with you. You are more incoherent than usual regarding this issue since no rational person would claim that a homosexual who had gotten worse after trying reparative therapy, and abstinence, should stop having sex. No major medical association would claim such a thing, including the CDC.

Your gays in the military arguments are completely bogus, and are contradicted by the militaries of over 30 countries, including the U.S. It is common knowledege that religion is the main issue, not whether or not gay servicemen can perform their jobs well. Israel has allowed gays in the military for 20 years. Israel has one of the best militaries in the world, but you presume, with no documented evidence at all, that gays in the military has not worked well there. You didn't say that, but that is what you believe.

The prime minister of Iceland is an open lesbian. Would you like to claim that she is not healthy, and is not able to perform her job well?

Religious bigotry should never determine civil rights since non-religious, and less religious people have rights too. That is why I quoted James Madison, but you completely missed the analogy.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
This is a reply that I made to 1robin in another thread:

1robin said:
I can't do this here. PM me. BTW I am an amateur military historian. I know way more about military history than my faith would certainly justify and I do not care what a debater would do, Military officials killing millions by policies justified with false data [at times on purpose (the false part)] is a sad and obvious fact of history that anyone who ever served in ww1 or ww2 etc...knows only too well. I have been as polite as possible but I insist this be done somewhere else and I will not respond here again.


You do not have to reply, but I will reply to your false and misleading claims.

A mere claim of false data regarding gays in the military will not do. I reply with research, and you reply with rhetoric. You were quite content to argue at length in the other thread until you got into trouble. You made a completely false claim that homosexuality cannot be justified, a claim that no medical organization would agree with, and that even common sense alone proves is false, and you made the misleading claim that homosexuality is harmful. If homosexuality is harmful, how do you account for so many healthy homosexuals? I should have asked you days ago for your definition of the word "harmful." Healthy gay people who read your arguments would be left wondering whether or not you were in your right mind since no rational person would claim that a healthy person is not healthy.


Numerous professional researchers disagree with you, and most of all, many rank and file soldiers in over 30 countries, including the U.S. It would be impossible for you to know more than rank and file soldiers in over 30 countries. It tells a lot about you when you mentioned that the data are false since you automatically conclude that any data that disagrees with your opinions are wrong. How can personal testiimonies from rank and file soldiers be false? What qualifies you to criticize experts in over 30 countries?

We are not in WW1, or WW2, we are in today, and today, acceptance of homosexuals in the Western world is generally way beyond what it was even 10 years ago, let alone over 50 years ago.


The debate has never been about whether or not gay soliders can adequately perform their jobs well. Rather, the main issue is the perception of gays by heterosexuals. The "unit cohesion" issue is primarily religious bigotry. This is easily proven by the successes in over 30 countries, most, or all of whom have smaller percentages of religious conservatives than the U.S. has. In the U.S., lots of documented research has proven that the most outspoken opponents of homosexuality by far are religious conservatives. Such being the case, that is proof why allowing gays in the military has worked well for many years in countries that have smaller percentages of religious conservatives.


You could claim that religion is not a major issue, but few people would believe you. Anyone with even a modest amount of common sense knows that religion is a major issue regarding all kinds of things, including gays in the military. Quite naturally, it is axiomatic that the fewer religious conservatives there are in a military, the less there will be issues about unit cohesion. Any sociologist would know that, but it doesn't take a sociologist to know that.


In one of my previous posts, I mentioned a research article at
What Does the Empirical Research Say about the Impact of Openly Gay Service on the Military? | Palm Center, The aritlce is by Dr. Nathaniel Frank. In part of the article, he said:


"The U.S. military’s own researchers have consistently found that openly gay service does not undermine cohesion, and the military has repeatedly sought to condemn or suppress these conclusions when they emerged. Yet no research has ever shown that open homosexuality impairs military readiness."


You have clearly lost three debates, 1) your false claim that homosexuality is never justifiable, 2) your misleading claim that homosexuality is harmful, and 3) your claim that gays in the military does not work well anywhere in the world. Idle rhetoric is not an adequate substitute for documented research.
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Hey you can't wait until I forget about an argument and bring it up days later. I have the memory span of sub-atomic particle. If you can show that promiscuity and homosexuality are unrelated maybe but the data links them undeniably.

I never said they were unrelated.

If that is what you call adopting a position in spite of all the data it will have to do I guess.
The data doesn't really support your position.

Preach on it.
Whatever that means.

That was not meant from a personal point of view but a general comment on society.
And it still falls flat.

Are you suggesting that all the nukes were shipped to Mars. The threat of a lunatic terrorist getting a nuke from a broke Russia that would sell its soul is far more real than a planet ending war ever was but we almost had one anyway twice.
My not worrying about death won't make it any less of a threat.
The cold war is only whanging players and we have added terrorists with the capability and for the first time the will to kill millions. What monkey?
Any impending apocalypse is irrelevant, anyway.

In any case, the odds of an apocalypse happening are lower than travelers getting jumped by bandits was in the old days.

Then again, I'm trying to learn not to be afraid of death even if he stared me down.

Creature comforts are no indicator of the moral or even social health of a society.
I never said anything about comforts.

Would you rather live in Feudal Europe?

All the trends are bad.
A few are, many aren't.

The over-commercialization of things is bad. The renunciation of old, unfounded biases is a good thing.

You are right let me restate. We have traditionally been the most free society on Earth and have had very high crime. I claim they are intrinsically related.
Our crime rate is lower than many other places where this "discipline" of yours is the way things are.

Not Psycho meds because their home life was a nightmare.
You do realize that the whole ADD over-diagnosis thing is in the past, right? Besides, medications aren't automatically bad.

I would supply it if you had shown it would be allowed to settle anything.
I haven't seen it in a while, but I remember it being stressed all the time a few years ago. Surely, you have seen it.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member

1robin said:
Until you can uncouple promiscuity and homosexuality you are arguing irrelevant degrees.


Does that mean that you do not object to monogamous homosexuals? No, because you disapprove of all homosexuality, even among monogamous homosexuals. Even if homosexuals were generally less promiscuous than heterosexuals are, you would still object to homosexuality.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to 1robin: You have said that your arguments against homosexuality appeal to religion, and to science. How can science work against homosexuals who enjoy excellent physical and mental health?

How can science work against divorce? Jesus said that divorce is wrong except in cases of adultery. Do you agree with that?
 
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AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Adultery is an act and is an objective fact.

If you think so, I believe you are confused, but I'm too lazy to walk through it with you right now. Heck, marriage isn't even an objective fact, much less does every couple (or group, if polygamy) agree to the same terms. So how could adultery be objective?

Try defining it. You'll see.

The word adultery is a tool of language used to describe an act carried out in reality and God condems the act in no uncertain terms.

I disagree with you, but I'm not sure I can say any more than that.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to 1robin: I am interested in your statement that your arguments against homosexuality appeal to religion, and to science. The late Henry Morris, Ph.d., of the Institute for Creation Research, was an inerrantist. He once said that “the main reason for insisting on the universal Flood as a fact of history and as the primary vehicle for geological interpretation is that God’s word plainly teaches it! No geologic difficulties, real or imagined, can be allowed to take precedence over the clear statements and necessary inferences of Scripture.” (Henry Morris, ‘Biblical Cosmology and Modern Science,’ 1970, p. 32-33)

Stanton Jones, Ph.D., psychology, and Mark Yarhouse, Ph.D., psychology, are conservative Christians. They wrote a book about homosexuality that is titled 'Homosexuality, The Use of Scientific Research in the Church's Moral Debate.' Chapter 4 is titled 'Is homosexuality a psychopathology?' After discussing a lot of scientific issues in that chapter, the authors conclude with the following paragraph:

"Finally, we have seen that there has never been any definitive judgment by the fields of psychiatry or psychology that homosexuality is a healthy lifestyle. But what if it were? Such a judgment would have little bearing on the judgments of the Christian church. In the days of Nero iit was healthy and adaptive to worship the Roman emperor. By contemporary American standards a life consumed with greed, materialism, sensualism, selfishness, divorce and pride is judged healthy, but God weighs such a life and finds it lacking."

Although I obviously diagree with Morris, Jones, and Yarhouse, I respect them for openly admitting that their primary bias is religious, not scientific. On the other hand, using science merely as a convenience when it agrees with your religious beliefs is not true science. So, what do you think of Morris', Jones', and Yarhouse's statements? Do you really need science to back up your religious beliefs about homosexuality, or are you just using science as a convenience because you believe that it agrees with your religious beliefs?

This is off topic, but do you accept creationism, sometimes referred to as the story of Adam and Eve, or theistic evolution?

Whatever problems homosexuality has caused in the world, they pale by comparion with heart disease, cigarette smoking, and obesity, and much more so global warming if the predictions of some climatologists come true. Some climatolgists predict that it is plausible, if not probable that global warming will eventually result in global cooling, and the end of human life on earth. That does not include the largest worldwide economic depression in history by far as a result of global warming. The majority of the world's large cities are located by oceans, bays, and rivers. A sea level rise of only a few inches would be devastating for many of those cities.

So, from a secular perspective, homosexuals are not responsible for the biggest problems in the world, and many heterosexuals are.

It is important to note that many of the harmful effects of heart disease, cigarette smoking, obesity, and global warming, are preventable.

Now here is something that is really interesting. Often, the biggest threat to an individual is not someone else, it is themself. I am partly referring to preventable cases of heart disease, and preventable problems that are caused by cigarette smoking, and obesity. From a secular perspective, no heterosexual who has a serious medical condition that is preventable has any business criticizing same-sex behavior, especially since same-sex behavior can be practiced safely.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
In another thread, I questioned the following that 1robin said in this thread:

"Other countries [that allow openly homosexual people to join the military] have no bearing on the issue even if you are correct. Cannibalism and ritual sacrifice worked well for some nations according to them."

1robin replied as follows:


"A comparison between two non-identical concepts has less than a perfect relationship. Only certain aspects in common are what are indicated by a comparison not all that they possess.......I was saying that the claim that anything that works in one nation is valid for all nations is as invalid an argument as saying that since cannibalism worked somewhere it is valid everywhere. The case can be made they are equally wrong but that was not what I was arguing. I got so appalled by your claims that I mentioned them to a coworker who retired from the Navy and an AF guy joined in and a 30 year veteran master chief came in and joined up also. We talked for 3 hours and it was one story after another where homosexuality in the military caused massive problems and lowered cohesion and efficiency. One even had a best friend that was a Navy doctor and he told me things they have to treat these days I did not even know existed (terrible things I am not comfortable listing). I can provide as many studies proving this as anyone could need but I do not think it will make any difference and this is not the thread for it."

That would definitely not pass as scientific research, and it is very illogical, and does not appeal to common sense.

Regarding "a comparison between two non-identical concepts has less than a perfect relationship," since homosexuality is non-identical to cannibalism, and ritual sacrifice, you have refuted your own argument since homosexuality is not identical to cannibalism, and ritual sacrifice. For one thing, homosexuality is usually consensual, canibalism is almost never consensual, and ritual sacrifice was often non-consensual. For another thing, homosexuality can be practiced safely. Cannibalism, and ritual sacrifice cannot be practice safely.

Regarding "I was saying that the claim that anything that works in one nation is valid for all nations is as invalid an argument as saying that since cannibalism worked somewhere it is valid everywhere," that is especially nonsensical. First of all, there is little doubt that you would not be willing to admit that gays in the military has worked well anywhere in the world. Second, one reason why you did not want to discuss other countries is because you did not want to discuss why it has worked well in some other countries since you know that religion is a big part of this issue in the U.S., and in other countries. As I have said, it is axiomatic that the fewer religoius conservatives there are in a military, the less there will be issues regaridng unit cohesion. I have also said that religious bigotry should not determine civil rights.

The majority of Americans approve of allowing gays in the military, but what if 90% of Americans were staunch religious conservatives, and strongly opposed allowing gays in the military? You would have a reasonable argument about unit cohesion, but it would still be an example of religious bigotry determining civil rights. Are you proposing that the civil rights of one group of people should be determined by the religious beliefs of another group of people?

In countries that allow openly gay people in the military, what are the servicemen's days like? Well, often, the heterosexual soldiers are not aware of who is gay, and who is heterosexual. When they do know, it is usually not enough of an issue to interfere with unit cohesion, especially regarding heterosexual servicemen who are non-religious, or less religious. In the U.S., the Commandant of the Marine Corps originally opposed the new policy, but later changed his mind when he found out that the new policy works reasonably well.

Scientific and sociological research have shown that the new policy works reasonably well. Scientific and sociological researchers are not impressed or influenced merely by "claims" of a lack of of unit cohesion. Rather, they look for "evidence" of a lack of cohesion. As an example, if a heterosexual soldier named John Smith told some researchers that gays in the military harms unit cohesion, the researchers might ask John for specific evidence that he is right. Once John has to produce specific evidence that backs up his claim, then John gets into trouble. A mere declaration by John would only prove that he does not like to be around gay people, not that his unit was less effective at doing their jobs well.
 
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MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I agree it is not as rigorus or specific. However:

Romans 1:24-27
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Romans 1:26

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;

What Does the Bible Say About Lesbians?

There’s an implication in Romans 1:26 that lesbianism is even worse than male homosexuality. Notice the phrase “even their women.” The text seems to suggest that it is more common for men to engage in sexual depravity, and when women begin to do it, that is a sign things are getting really bad. Men usually have much stronger sex drives than women, and so are more prone to sexual deviancy. When women commit unnatural sexual acts, then the degree of immorality has truly become shameful. Lesbianism is evidence of people being given over to “the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another” (Romans 1:24).

What does the Bible say about being a lesbian? Does the Bible mention lesbianism?

I have tried and argue from science not religion but I have been accused of it anyway so I might as well be guilty of it as well. Not much of a crime.

Well, given your contempt for homosexuality, I figured it's most honest to be consistent with it. ;)

I think where you find degradation when it comes to the definition of marriage and sexuality, I find freedom from an oppressive model. For me and my own journey as a woman, as a bisexual, and now as a 40-something who has been raising 4 children (my baby is 14), I think it's a degradation to pigeonhole a woman like me - or any woman who can't identify as a submissive in a relationship's power structure - into a singular role of fulfilling "wifely duties."

The Biblical model of marriage - at least how it has been defined to me over the years by conservative Christians where a monogamous and heterosexual husband dominant cares for and leads his wife - is IMO only one among many alternatives in finding how a pair bonded romantically and sexually can create peace, clarity, and happiness between them. The attempt to herd all people into this one exclusive model can so often result in depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, anger, etc. because a husband has absolutely no desire to lead, a wife who submits depresses her rather than has her feeling protected, a homosexual must completely suppress his feelings and marry the girl next door for social acceptance, and on and on and on.

Personally, I think the one-and-only-one model considered acceptable has been a major factor in couples who eventually lead double lives, keep secrets from their spouses, children, neighbors, and even congregations (Ted Haggard, anyone?). I also think that exclusivity breeds a type of repression where people can confuse love and commitment with a "you made your bed, you lie in it" mentality, and has kept domestic violence and marital rape a hushed conversation rather than an issue dealt with by law enforcement.....for centuries.

Specifically for issues regarding homosexuality, I will protect one's right to believe in whatever they wish to believe for their own individual spiritual walk. But I do not support using that belief to abuse, harass, demean, discriminate, rape, beat, or kill another for the purpose of protecting said belief over human rights.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
But I have already commented on those studies. All that the legitimate ones show is that homosexuals "generally" have more medical problems than heterosexuals do, not that the majority of homosexuals have any serious medical problem.
Even your augmented hunches were wrong. I do not get this at all. It makes no sense. If an action produces significant gains in overall suffering even to people who do not participate without any corresponding positive gain that would justify it then the act should be declared unwise and should be stopped. The reason I tried to get away from this stuff is it makes absolutely no sense what so ever. You are for some reason claiming that since not every homosexual has contracted an STD it should be allowed. That is ridiculous. Other actions that are illegal that do not have a 100% rate of causing harm to the ones who practice them yet are still illegal. If only 10% of underage drivers crash the car should we there for allow all kids to drive? The argument is ridiculous.

You said that homosexuality is harmful. Harmful to what percentage of homosexuals?
It does not matter one bit what so ever. We do not determine whether murder or theft is wrong by what percentage of people are harmed by it.

Please provide statistics that deal with percentages of all homosexuals, not just homosexuals who have medical problems as compared with heterosexuals who have medical problems.
I did but will not do so again because it makes no difference to anything.
The majority of homosexuals are not alcoholics, drug abusers, or pedophiles, and do not have HIV/AIDS.
If this is all you got your argument is truly lost.
Please provide your definition of the word "harmful."
Why? You know exactly what that means. After years of doing this I have learned that when someone cannot create a meaningful argument that has any explanatory power they instead look for a technical battle to fight like semantics and I have learned to avoid these diversions. In this case it means suffering but I will not get into a semantic black hole with you. You know exactly what I meant. Not only am I not wasting my time with semantics but I will not respond to any argument that claims that since not everyone contracts aids even though the rates in the community are far higher we should then declare the actions permissible. It just does not work and is not worth talking about.
Do you not know that health is experienced individually, not collectively?
That has nothing to do with anything. They are evaluated collectively and individually. A collective amount of suffering is composed of individual suffering. Once again this is completely pointless. These claims are the worst argument for anything I have seen anytime or anywhere. Even in a world where guns are being banned even though the rates of lives saved versus lost is dozens to one and every study I have ever heard shows undeniably that crime goes up when guns are banned exponentially your claims are still ridiculous.

You said that there is never any justification for homosexuality, but that is completely false, and every major medical association disagrees with you. You are more incoherent than usual regarding this issue since no rational person would claim that a homosexual, who had gotten worse after trying reparative therapy, and abstinence, should stop having sex. No major medical association would claim such a thing, including the CDC.
NO I did not. I said there is no corresponding justification that merits it's practice that outweighs the harm caused by its practice. I do not care about the effectiveness of a certain treatment for this arguemnt. It is not part of this context. Find whoever made that method and complain to them. Should we let everyone out of jail because prison reform does not have a high success rate?

Your gays in the military arguments are completely bogus, and are contradicted by the militaries of over 30 countries, including the U.S. It is common knowledge that religion is the main issue, not whether or not gay servicemen can perform their jobs well. Israel has allowed gays in the military for 20 years. Israel has one of the best militaries in the world, but you presume, with no documented evidence at all, that gays in the military has not worked well there. You didn't say that, but that is what you believe.
No it is not but at least this argument is worth having. I suggest you stick to this one and drop the other nonsense as I will not waste my time debating it any longer.
The prime minister of Iceland is an open lesbian. Would you like to claim that she is not healthy, and is not able to perform her job well?
I have no need to claim anything about a single person. This is insanely absurd. By this preposterous logic if I can find one drunk driver who never had a wreck and was able to work we should declare drunk driving permissible. After this post I will not respond to these ridiculous arguments. They do not deserve it.
Religious bigotry should never determine civil rights since non-religious, and less religious people have rights too. That is why I quoted James Madison, but you completely missed the analogy.
That is simply wrong. Is though shall not murder religious bigotry? Is though shall not steal religious bigotry? Is the prohibition of an action thought by most cultures over most of history to be despicable and which has endless data that proves it causes a great increase in harm even to people who do not do it bigotry? I think you have religious bigotry not the other way around. It is you who demands that an action that kills countless people who do not even practice it morally permissible on the basis that not everyone dies from it. Regardless I have no need of any religion to justify the argument that homosexuality is wrong. I will remind you one last time. I am no longer responding to an argument as ridiculous as since it does not kill everyone then it is ok. Nor will I respond to complaints about a treatment method as I have made no claims about one. Stick with the military, it is the only point (wrong or right) you have made that has any merit, howver even if it worked in the military (it doesn't) that would not be an argument that there for it is morally permissable. Saying a Lesbian can shoot straight is no defence of lesbianism.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Well, given your contempt for homosexuality, I figured it's most honest to be consistent with it.
My contempt for homosexuality is based on it producing a large increase in suffering even for people who do not practice it. My religious beliefs are simply confirmation of the moral implications of the practice but they apply mostly to me personally. I declare the act morally unjustifiable for health reasons not religous ones.

I think where you find degradation when it comes to the definition of marriage and sexuality, I find freedom from an oppressive model. For me and my own journey as a woman, as a bisexual, and now as a 40-something who has been raising 4 children (my baby is 14), I think it's a degradation to pigeonhole a woman like me - or any woman who can't identify as a submissive in a relationship's power structure - into a singular role of fulfilling "wifely duties."
My comments to you were not a commentary on the morality of homosexuality. It was in response to you statements about the Bible. I do not spend much time debating this issue because the emotional pre-commitment to justifying the practice and the lack of philosophical absolute prevents resolution, but will respond if you wish.
The Biblical model of marriage - at least how it has been defined to me over the years by conservative Christians where a monogamous and heterosexual husband dominant cares for and leads his wife - is IMO only one among many alternatives in finding how a pair bonded romantically and sexually can create peace, clarity, and happiness between them.
Peace, clarity, and happiness are not sufficiently quantifiable to use as a basis for moral permissiveness. What is that the practice of these acts results in a large increase to human misery and costs billions. There are many things that produce happiness (drugs, theft) that we do not allow because they have other overarching negative impacts. The same with clarity (which is not demonstrable in your context) and peace. If one side in every war simply gave up it would produce peace. Is that a wise action?

The attempt to herd all people into this one exclusive model can so often result in depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, anger, etc. because a husband has absolutely no desire to lead, a wife who submits depresses her rather than has her feeling protected, a homosexual must completely suppress his feelings and marry the girl next door for social acceptance, and on and on and on.
These personal opinions have no explanatory power without tons of data and context. I believe that whatever emotional distress is caused by not allowing homosexuality is eclipsed by the suffering produced by the medical issues, monetary issues, and emotional issues caused by the eradication of a traditional family unit etc...... However it is easily seen that as we proceed away from traditional Christian values our moral landscape increases in chaos and misery. Today we spend billions in attempts to save murderers from the gas chamber yet kill millions of babies who have done nothing for sins we commit. No matter how you dress that up it is diabolical and we are going in the wrong direction. Another example would be that when Stalin established an atheistic based political structure he removed the only justification for declaring that humans have value, and the sanctity of life. He there for thought it nothing special to wipe out 20 million people and cause a hundred million to suffer. Every move we make away from God is backwards.

Personally, I think the one-and-only-one model considered acceptable has been a major factor in couples who eventually lead double lives, keep secrets from their spouses, children, neighbors, and even congregations (Ted Haggard, anyone?). I also think that exclusivity breeds a type of repression where people can confuse love and commitment with a "you made your bed, you lie in it" mentality, and has kept domestic violence and marital rape a hushed conversation rather than an issue dealt with by law enforcement.....for centuries.
I respect your right to have an opinion but they are not persuasive. You are basically saying that since I invented a reason (right or wrong) to justify what I wish to do then I should be allowed to do it. Virtually every single criminal in history has some story by which he thinks he can justify his actions. There is no defense for doing something for convenience sake or to satisfy some physical desire that kills millions a year.
Specifically for issues regarding homosexuality, I will protect one's right to believe in whatever they wish to believe for their own individual spiritual walk. But I do not support using that belief to abuse, harass, demean, discriminate, rape, beat, or kill another for the purpose of protecting said belief over human rights.
Hold the phone a minute. I have never hassled, harassed, or any of those other things any homosexual in my life. However their practices have killed countless innocent people who never committed a homosexual act. The stakes are lopsided much greater than anything you mention in the opposite direction. I only personally deny a right to traditional marriage and service in the military. Outside that even though the practice kills untold amounts of people I say out of it. You can't punch someone in the face and then complain because they point out it was wrong. I do not promise to continue this discussion as this issue is not debated by facts but by emotion and rationalization and that is not the kind of thing I do or think worth the effort but if time permits I will plan to respond.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Message to 1robin: I am interested in your statement that your arguments against homosexuality appeal to religion, and to science. The late
Henry Morris, Ph.d., of the Institute for Creation Research, was an inerrantist. He once said that “the main reason for insisting on the universal Flood as a fact of history and as the primary vehicle for geological interpretation is that God’s word plainly teaches it! No geologic difficulties, real or imagined, can be allowed to take precedence over the clear statements and necessary inferences of Scripture.” (Henry Morris, ‘Biblical Cosmology and Modern Science,’ 1970, p. 32-33)
You are the most prolific and least effective debater I have ever seen. I do not care what Dr Morris claimed about the flood nor do I see what that has to do with anything anyway. I think the flood an allegory but have never really felt any need to adopt a firm position. If you wish to have a Bible debate that is what I specialize in but you can't debate homosexuality in a Bible thread and the Bible in a homosexuality thread.
Stanton Jones, Ph.D., psychology, and Mark Yarhouse, Ph.D., psychology, are conservative Christians. They wrote a book about homosexuality that is titled 'Homosexuality, The Use of Scientific Research in the Church's Moral Debate.' Chapter 4 is titled 'Is homosexuality a psychopathology?' After discussing a lot of scientific issues in that chapter, the authors conclude with the following paragraph:
"Finally, we have seen that there has never been any definitive judgment by the fields of psychiatry or psychology that homosexuality is a healthy lifestyle. But what if it were? Such a judgment would have little bearing on the judgments of the Christian church. In the days of Nero iit was healthy and adaptive to worship the Roman emperor. By contemporary American standards a life consumed with greed, materialism, sensualism, selfishness, divorce and pride is judged healthy, but God weighs such a life and finds it lacking."
Just because a person has faith does not mean I must agree with them or accept what they say. I do not even need the Bible to make the case and 95% of my posts here have had nothing to do with religion. It seems you are a religious bigot or at least resent the source of any rules that would either make you accountable or request you to practice self-discipline. I have not argued a biblical position with you to any meaningful extent. I can but until I do what Dr Morris thinks about the ark is irrelevant and I am not obligated to accept any study done by a Christian, though this one proves my claims more than yours.
Although I obviously disagree with Morris, Jones, and Yarhouse, I respect them for openly admitting that their primary bias is religious, not scientific. On the other hand, using science merely as a convenience when it agrees with your religious beliefs is not true science. So, what do you think of Morris', Jones', and Yarhouse's statements? Do you really need science to back up your religious beliefs about homosexuality, or are you just using science as a convenience because you believe that it agrees with your religious beliefs?
Well if you debate them religion might be applicable.

This is off topic, but do you accept creationism, sometimes referred to as the story of Adam and Eve, or theistic evolution?
Those are not the same concepts. My position and I can argue it inescapably that without God reality as we know it could not be. Nature cannot produce what we have unaided. I am not a Genesis literalist. I do not claim six literal days for example. However God is a logical necessity in the current state of science to get what we have. As I said these are the issues I normally debate and I am very competent in them. I would not recommend you challenge me about God's existence judging by your argumentation here.
Whatever problems homosexuality has caused in the world, they pale by comparison with heart disease, cigarette smoking, and obesity, and much more so global warming if the predictions of some climatologists come true. Some climatologists predict that it is plausible, if not probable that global warming will eventually result in global cooling, and the end of human life on earth. That does not include the largest worldwide economic depression in history by far as a result of global warming. The majority of the world's large cities are located by oceans, bays, and rivers. A sea level rise of only a few inches would be devastating for many of those cities.
Have you ever had any philosophic training, education, or experience. You present one fallacious argument after another. Listing a few random things that are worse than X (if true) have no power to make X justifiable. Is claiming that murder is worse than theft do anything to legitimize theft. Please remember this. I will expect you to do so. Someone said here that homosexuality should not be compared with crime or other bad things. I agreed but I have no idea how to illustrate these points without doing so. I will instead issue this single disclaimer, I believe personally that homosexuality is just as wrong as many crimes but I am not claiming that here. I am only using similarities about moral justification using crime as a comparison and contrast. I do not claim here that homosexuality should be viewed as a crime but as another moral issue evaluated by the similar means that crime is.
So, from a secular perspective, homosexuals are not responsible for the biggest problems in the world, and many heterosexuals are.
This is getting just plain weird. The lack of philosophic reason within your argumentation is appalling. This is so wrong in countless ways.
1. Homosexuals are as guilty for the actions that produce what you listed as heterosexuals are.
2. The problems you listed may be produced by heterosexuals (and homosexuals) but not produced because of their heterosexuality. That is like saying that there are ten more left handed people than right handed people in jail there for right-handedness is morally superior to left handedness.
That is enough. Where do you get this stuff? BTW in the 80s those same omniscient scientists went before the UN and declared that Global cooling would kill us all within a few years.
It is important to note that many of the harmful effects of heart disease, cigarette smoking, obesity, and global warming, are preventable.
Yes and rainbows have the color blue, Joe Montana was a good quarter back, and calculus B is a very hard class. Sorry I thought we were just saying random things at this point.
Now here is something that is really interesting. Often, the biggest threat to an individual is not someone else, it is themself. I am partly referring to preventable cases of heart disease, and preventable problems that are caused by cigarette smoking, and obesity. From a secular perspective, no heterosexual who has a serious medical condition that is preventable has any business criticizing same-sex behavior, especially since same-sex behavior can be practiced safely.
I have been about as patient as possible. Please get rid of claims that something is ok because it could be worse, something is ok because other things are wrong, X must be right because a religion says it is wrong, random example of things Christians have said, and just randomly talking about anything that pops in your head. Either make efficient and persuasive relevant arguments or I am out again.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
My contempt for homosexuality is based on it producing a large increase in suffering even for people who do not practice it. My religious beliefs are simply confirmation of the moral implications of the practice but they apply mostly to me personally. I declare the act morally unjustifiable for health reasons not religous ones.
My comments to you were not a commentary on the morality of homosexuality. It was in response to you statements about the Bible. I do not spend much time debating this issue because the emotional pre-commitment to justifying the practice and the lack of philosophical absolute prevents resolution, but will respond if you wish.
Peace, clarity, and happiness are not sufficiently quantifiable to use as a basis for moral permissiveness. What is that the practice of these acts results in a large increase to human misery and costs billions. There are many things that produce happiness (drugs, theft) that we do not allow because they have other overarching negative impacts. The same with clarity (which is not demonstrable in your context) and peace. If one side in every war simply gave up it would produce peace. Is that a wise action?
These personal opinions have no explanatory power without tons of data and context. I believe that whatever emotional distress is caused by not allowing homosexuality is eclipsed by the suffering produced by the medical issues, monetary issues, and emotional issues caused by the eradication of a traditional family unit etc...... However it is easily seen that as we proceed away from traditional Christian values our moral landscape increases in chaos and misery. Today we spend billions in attempts to save murderers from the gas chamber yet kill millions of babies who have done nothing for sins we commit. No matter how you dress that up it is diabolical and we are going in the wrong direction. Another example would be that when Stalin established an atheistic based political structure he removed the only justification for declaring that humans have value, and the sanctity of life. He there for thought it nothing special to wipe out 20 million people and cause a hundred million to suffer. Every move we make away from God is backwards.
I respect your right to have an opinion but they are not persuasive. You are basically saying that since I invented a reason (right or wrong) to justify what I wish to do then I should be allowed to do it. Virtually every single criminal in history has some story by which he thinks he can justify his actions. There is no defense for doing something for convenience sake or to satisfy some physical desire that kills millions a year.
Hold the phone a minute. I have never hassled, harassed, or any of those other things any homosexual in my life. However their practices have killed countless innocent people who never committed a homosexual act. The stakes are lopsided much greater than anything you mention in the opposite direction. I only personally deny a right to traditional marriage and service in the military. Outside that even though the practice kills untold amounts of people I say out of it. You can't punch someone in the face and then complain because they point out it was wrong. I do not promise to continue this discussion as this issue is not debated by facts but by emotion and rationalization and that is not the kind of thing I do or think worth the effort but if time permits I will plan to respond.

No, but you are spreading a lot of lies about the supposed "dangers" of homosexuality. I have no problem pointing out that they are, in fact, lies.

I think after decades of being in the company of many gays, lesbians, bisexuals (being one myself), and transgendered, that I'd see firsthand all this horror that you accuse us of. Nope. Not one. And my rebuttals are not based off opinion or emotion, but real life.

And I know a LOT of people. :yes:
 
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