why can't we have a relationship with other men?

[TheKnight]

Hi TheKnight, I would like to reply to the above from what I just quoted from you. Sometimes, direct witnesses are not needed. Sometimes the perversion manifests itself through disease, and that manifestation becomes the witness to all...So TheKnight, the witness against homosexuality is the disease. Just Google, "Disease and men having sex with men," and see the witness to what goes on behind closed doors. And I have a homosexual niece who I love very much. She is a nurse and helps me extensively with my 92 year old father, and I will in no way condemn her, but I would hope she eventually sees the error of her way. KB

Normally, I would point out to you the erroneous logic of your post in detail, but in this case I see no point.


1. Having a disease isn't evidence of anything as plenty of heterosexuals also have diseases.
2. Engaging in a homosexual relationship does not certainly and surely lead to contracting or spreading sexually transmitted diseases.
3. If your post had any sort of accuracy whatsoever, it would not apply to homosexuals but to the overly promiscuous (meaning that sexual orientation isn't relevant whatsoever). My post in no way condoned or even mentioned rampant promiscuous behavior. The point of my post is that if two people of the same gender are in a relationship (which is NOT prohibited by the Torah), then it is not our place to render the judgment that they are breaking Torah law unless sufficient evidence for that is brought forward.

In case you were wondering, having a diseases is NOT sufficient evidence. That you would say so speaks volumes about your character.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Hi TheKnight, I would like to reply to the above from what I just quoted from you. Sometimes, direct witnesses are not needed. Sometimes the perversion manifests itself through disease, and that manifestation becomes the witness to all.

I remember back in the 90's that my children's school had a blood drive. I'm not sure if any here have had any experience with giving blood, but back then, the questions you were asked about "men having sex with men" were so detailed and exhaustive, that if you even had sex with someone who somehow was involved with "men having sex with men," your blood was rejected.

Now, I know that much of this was from the Aids epidemic, which initally began in the U.S. as ONLY a male homosexual disease. I had a nephew who defended his homosexuality to me all the way up to where he was totally blind and died a horrible death in his early twenties from Aids. This made me really research into the Aids epidemic and I am convinced that Aids started in the U.S. from a group of male homosexuals in NYC who were given a vaccine for Hep B that was cultured in monkey serum. This Hep B vaccine was for coming into contact with human feces which was a rampant disease with the male homosexual community.

I'm bringing this up to show how that lifestyle produced disease which was manifested for everyone to see, so we don't really need witnesses in the bedroom. Now, how did this "men having sex with men" disease spread to the heterosexual community? Very simple, gay men having the disease had sex with other men that might have been drinking too much and they picked them up at a bar, or it might be that even some of the gay men would have had sex with women (also drug use and blood contamination contributed).

Some will argue that in Africa it stated as a heterosexual disease, and that is true. But the same Heb B vaccine was used there in some of the central African villages who had bad sanitary conditions which produced the Heb B virus. This Hep B vaccine is what I believed started Aids, and in the U.S. it was used on a group of male homosexuals who were at risk for the Hep B virus.

You see, time and history does not change the fact that "men having sex with men," causes disease:

Rom 1:27 (CEV)
(27) Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds.

So TheKnight, the witness against homosexuality is the disease. Just Google, "Disease and men having sex with men," and see the witness to what goes on behind closed doors. And I have a homosexual niece who I love very much. She is a nurse and helps me extensively with my 92 year old father, and I will in no way condemn her, but I would hope she eventually sees the error of her way. KB

You are expressing a deep ignorance of biology here.

 

[Ken Brown]

Normally, I would point out to you the erroneous logic of your post in detail, but in this case I see no point.

1. Having a disease isn't evidence of anything as plenty of heterosexuals also have diseases.
2. Engaging in a homosexual relationship does not certainly and surely lead to contracting or spreading sexually transmitted diseases.
3. If your post had any sort of accuracy whatsoever, it would not apply to homosexuals but to the overly promiscuous (meaning that sexual orientation isn't relevant whatsoever). My post in no way condoned or even mentioned rampant promiscuous behavior. The point of my post is that if two people of the same gender are in a relationship (which is NOT prohibited by the Torah), then it is not our place to render the judgment that they are breaking Torah law unless sufficient evidence for that is brought forward.

In case you were wondering, having a diseases is NOT sufficient evidence. That you would say so speaks volumes about your character.

Hi TheKnight, did you Google, "Disease and men having sex with men?" That lifestyle is DEVASTATING to the human body. Look at the statistics. A new report that just came out on December 19th by the CDC on "HIV Surveillance Supplemental Report" has this statement:

The estimated number of new HIV infections among males with infection to male-to-male sexual contact (men who have sex with men [MSM] INCREASED...Men who have sex with men continue to bear the heaviest burden of HIV.

Are we to believe that the Center of Disease Control is lying to the American people? And then you have the CDC's statement on:

Viral Hepatitis And Men Who Have Sex with Men

Men who have sex with men (MSM) are at elevated risk for certain sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, HIV/AIDS, syphilis, gonorrhea, and chlamydia. Despite the availability of safe and effective vaccines, many MSM have not been adequately vaccinated against viral hepatitis. Approximately 15%–25% of all new Hepatitis B virus (HBV) infections in the United States are among MSM. The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices recommends Hepatitis A and Hepatitis B vaccination for MSM. Because of higher rates of infection among this population, CDC also recommends testing MSM for chronic HBV infection.

Did you see what I wrote on the first post about the Heb B virus and how "men having sex with men" are afflicted by this disease. The lifestyle of "men having sex with men" is witnessed to everyone as a devastating lifestyle.

Please TheKnight, name another lifestyle that testifies against it as does "men having sex with men." KB

 

[mayuboar]

for those who bought it up, It's not just gay men I was refering to, I feel the same way about lesbians.
I have 2 very good friends who are lesbians, they were in my wedding party.

I suppport their relationship as I have said here again and again without people really listening, my issue is with people not admitting it is a flaw within there chemical makeup.

It can be embraced, live as a homosexual in a homosexual relationship because thats what you are, but dont deny why you are homosexual, because of a chemical imbalance.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

for those who bought it up, It's not just gay men I was refering to, I feel the same way about lesbians.
I have 2 very good friends who are lesbians, they were in my wedding party.

I suppport their relationship as I have said here again and again without people really listening, my issue is with people not admitting it is a flaw within there chemical makeup.

It can be embraced, live as a homosexual in a homosexual relationship because thats what you are, but dont deny why you are homosexual, because of a chemical imbalance.

There's no evidence of any "chemical imbalances" in non-strictly heterosexual people (whatever that would mean). Sexual orientation exists on a spectrum, by the way.

 

[mayuboar]

There's no evidence of any "chemical imbalances" in non-strictly heterosexual people (whatever that would mean). Sexual orientation exists on a spectrum, by the way.

think about what makes a man attracted to a woman, why there attracted to a woman and what would cause them not to be.

a male bird of paradise has amazing features obviously designed to attract a female, very obvious, it is clearer in the case of these species what they were meant for, should they not go for each other there is an internal problem, its not due to there lack of feathers.

I use the bird referance because the fact that a man has a penis and a woman has a vagina is not enough evidence to those in denial of who we were made to be with.
Rule 3

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

think about what makes a man attracted to a woman, why there attracted to a woman and what would cause them not to be.

a male bird of paradise has amazing features obviously designed to attract a female, very obvious, it is clearer in the case of these species what they were meant for, should they not go for each other there is an internal problem, its not due to there lack of feathers.

I use the bird referance because the fact that a man has a penis and a woman has a vagina is not enough evidence to those in denial of who we were made to be with.

There is no objective reason to think that non-straight people are "seriously screwed up". There is no one reason why someone is attracted to someone or some aspect of a person. It's involuntary.

 

[mayuboar]

There is no objective reason to think that non-straight people are "seriously screwed up". There is no one reason why someone is attracted to someone or some aspect of a person. It's involuntary.

yes its involentary, thats why they can not be blamed, and the behaviour hurts no one.

but being involuntary proves its caused by something within the brain that is conflicting and in direct contradiction to their physical body.

 

[TheKnight]

Please TheKnight, name another lifestyle that testifies against it as does "men having sex with men." KB

We're having two conversations. The point of my post was that the conversation you're trying to have isn't actually relevant. Even if what you're saying in your post is true, it isn't relevant at all to any religious discussion regarding homosexual relationships.

 

[Ken Brown]

We're having two conversations. The point of my post was that the conversation you're trying to have isn't actually relevant. Even if what you're saying in your post is true, it isn't relevant at all to any religious discussion regarding homosexual relationships.

Hi TheKnight, I'm not having two different conversations with you. I am staying right on track with what you wrote in This Post. And I would really like for you to clarify several things that you were rather ambiguous on :

1. Is "men having sex with men" prohibited in the Torah?

2. Do you have to have witnesses to a act of disobedience (against the Torah) before that act becomes a sin? It appeared to me you were justifying "men having sex with men" as long as there were no witnesses seeing them do it?

So, please understand that I am addressing what you wrote, unless I totally misunderstood you. KB

 

[tumbleweed41]

Hi tumbleweed41, why would you think He hasn't any? We have them and we are made in His image. He has hands, feet, arms, legs, a head, a backside, a frontside, a mind, a spirit, a heart, and I'm sure just about everything else that we have, so why not have genitalia? Don't you think G-d can make love? The thing of it is, I'm certain that He is not making love with the same sex, because if He is, that will cause mankind's extinction, and that would be an abomination (Lev 18:22). KB

So, Not only does God have genitalia, God has a wife?

 

[Ken Brown]

So, Not only does God have genitalia, God has a wife?

Hi tumbleweed41, aren't you aware that He married two sisters, and they started sleeping around with other gods, and time after time He tried to get them back in His bed, but they refused, and then He had to divorce the one, and should have divorced the other? You are not aware of all that? KB

 

[savethedreams]

I am Gay myself and a PRoud gay person at that. I don't feel its WRONG..... well I KNOW it's NOT WRONG to be gay. We will find that out later in our generation. Be HAPPY now and not wait until you old and regretting it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

for those who bought it up, It's not just gay men I was refering to, I feel the same way about lesbians.
I have 2 very good friends who are lesbians, they were in my wedding party.

I suppport their relationship as I have said here again and again without people really listening, my issue is with people not admitting it is a flaw within there chemical makeup.

It can be embraced, live as a homosexual in a homosexual relationship because thats what you are, but dont deny why you are homosexual, because of a chemical imbalance.

I prefer to think of my orientation not as the result of an "imbalance", but simply as an orientation. Kind of like how I'm short as a woman not because I'm flawed, but because I'm just tiny.

I once thought of myself that way.....having these deeply entrenched "flaws" that I had no control over......Nearly led me to putting a gun in my mouth and pulling the trigger. So, thanks but no thanks.

 

[NIX]

So, Not only does God have genitalia, God has a wife?

God has every existing type of genitalia and is married to the spouse of every single person who is married (male or female or other).

 

[tumbleweed41]

Hi tumbleweed41, aren't you aware that He married two sisters, and they started sleeping around with other gods, and time after time He tried to get them back in His bed, but they refused, and then He had to divorce the one, and should have divorced the other? You are not aware of all that? KB

Source?

 

[NIX]

God has every existing type of genitalia and is married to the spouse of every single person who is married (male or female or other).

This makes God multigendered and polysomething. It sounds so colorful! :newyear::rainbow1:

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I suppport their relationship as I have said here again and again without people really listening, my issue is with people not admitting it is a flaw within there chemical makeup.

In my opinion, I'm listening to you more closely than you are listening to yourself. You go out of your way to say that gay is fine-and-dandy and then use words like 'flawed' and 'unnatural' to describe gays.

I feel the same way about Buddhists. It's OK if they want to be Buddhists... so long as they admit that they are flawed and unnatural people.

But, it's odd. Whenever I say stuff like that, people think that I am actually not OK with Buddhists -- that my words paint a different picture of me than my claims.

 

[TheKnight]

Hi TheKnight, I'm not having two different conversations with you. I am staying right on track with what you wrote in This Post. And I would really like for you to clarify several things that you were rather ambiguous on :

1. Is "men having sex with men" prohibited in the Torah?

Ahh, there is a typo within my post. That first line should read: "It's written in two places and from my (what I would consider comparatively extensive) study of it there's no other way to interpret what's written than to mean that men should not have sex with other men."

I am unable to edit the post now, but thank you for pointing out the disparity.

2. Do you have to have witnesses to a act of disobedience (against the Torah) before that act becomes a sin? It appeared to me you were justifying "men having sex with men" as long as there were no witnesses seeing them do it?

In order to find someone guilty of such an act you would need to have at least two witnesses to the act.

I wasn't condoning it if there are no witnesses, but advocating that we do not condemn people without actual witnesses of the event. In other words, we're not condoning the sin, we're simply not prejudging people based on factors that don't necessarily indicate that they are sinning.

I have no reason to believe you are sinning unless I actually witness you doing so. For me to treat you differently because I think you might have sinned even though I don't know that for sure is something I think everyone in society should seek to avoid.


[quote
So, please understand that I am addressing what you wrote, unless I totally misunderstood you. KB[/quote]


I can see now where your misunderstanding came into play. I should re-read my posts more carefully before posting them. I didn't know we had an expiration date on the edit button.

 

[mayuboar]

In my opinion, I'm listening to you more closely than you are listening to yourself. You go out of your way to say that gay is fine-and-dandy and then use words like 'flawed' and 'unnatural' to describe gays.

I feel the same way about Buddhists. It's OK if they want to be Buddhists... so long as they admit that they are flawed and unnatural people.

But, it's odd. Whenever I say stuff like that, people think that I am actually not OK with Buddhists -- that my words paint a different picture of me than my claims.

I accept them because they cannot help being gay, it's what they are, but I am not going to say its not a flaw in there being.

doesnt mean I have a problem with them, just means I will not BS myself like others.