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Why condemn a whole people if only a few do wrong?

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
Lol. You "trust". Because you want to?

Mate. He is absolutely uneducated in Islam. Absolutely. Only a hypocrite would talk about a theology pretending he knows it well, and in my honest opinion, he is.

So this is a problematic reply you have given us. You aren't giving us examples to prove that he is uneducated in Islam therefore we have no reason to believe that he is uneducated based on what we hear from him. And then what level of education is acceptable because most muslims don't even understand what the Quran says?

Just brushing off peoples arguments by attacking their character and making blanket statements without proof makes it seem like you don't want to confront criticism in any healthy way. (Emphasis on SEEMS)
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I have a theory.

The "arrogance" is engrained right into the religious culture. To the point of it inducing a superiority complex in a way.
I agree.
Examples of such fish are, but is not limited to:
- islam is a "perfect" religion
- islam is the only "all encompassing" religion
- the quran is "perfect" in every way while the bible / torah is "corrupted" by man.
- the quran is the most "perfect" text ever and will remain such till the end of time
I agree again but your lack of other examples but Islam bothers me. Exceptionalism isn't limited to Islam. Many religions, and surely all monotheist religions have that superiority complex. Tolerance is not a religious virtue.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I would say though that the majority of Muslims do not commit terrorist acts. I don't know whether the majority of them are violent or not and if that is encouraged by the religion.
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of Muslims aren't violent.
The problem is that even a small, violent minority makes for some tens if not hundreds of thousands of potential (and actual) terrorists.
And while they may in error to interpret their religion as calling for violence, it sure didn't discourage them.
That is not only so for Islam but in our age it is most pronounced in Islam.
But if the concept of brotherhood in Islam is causing them not to condemn terrorists as a whole, then that would show an underlying problem caused by the religion.
It's not that most Muslims won't condemn terrorism, it's that they won't the condemn the Qur'an and Hadith for giving the fundaments for the terrorism.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
But does he do a righterous action by killing those people?

He certainly thinks so, yes.
Not just "he thinks so". He is totally convinced of this
People don't just kill, usually this happens when they really believe in this
In his case he believes he MUST kill by reading Koran verses written by Prophet Muhammad according to the Islam Religion

So it is wrong to judge every muslim for what a few do.

Sure.
What isn't wrong though, is to judge / condemn the ideology that motivated the evil.
Which in the case of the muslim terrorist, definitely is a certain version / interpretation of islam.
Indeed, I agree it is not wrong to judge/condemn any murdering ideology motivating such evil acts
And personally I think it is wrong to try to condone this, by not clearly shouting it from the roofs
I do understand that some Muslims keep silent, knowing other Muslims might kill them for it
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Not what I meant. Personally, I quite enjoy educated religious people who can speak with nuance and intelligence.
It's more the rah-rah unbelievers-are-evil crowd I find problematic.



To each their own. But I've seen you support Sharia before, do I'm somewhat confused.
For me, I try to be live and let live upto the point someone's behaviour directly impacts other people.
I do support sharia law between muslims. But not to use sharia law against non muslims.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
I would say though that the majority of Muslims do not commit terrorist acts. I don't know whether the majority of them are violent or not and if that is encouraged by the religion.

But if the concept of brotherhood in Islam is causing them not to condemn terrorists as a whole, then that would show an underlying problem caused by the religion.
I have no problem condemming terror done by muslims. I know we are not perfect as human beings, but i can not support when the law ( in islam) is used wrong toward those who do not believe.

I do not go against Allah or question Allah in his orders, but, i can ask my self. Do i do this of selfish reason and do i understand why Allah ask of us what He do?

Honestly i do not always understand Allah
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Thank you for summing it up so clearly. All good points, which will be ignored by those who should reply to it (I think, though I hope I am wrong)

The "arrogance" is engrained right into the religious culture.
True.

And this is not just worldly arrogance, which is curable, though very hard
But the Hindu Scriptures call this Spiritual Arrogance, and say that even God can't cure it
Even Jesus gave a pretty clear hint, that most Christians fail to accept "thou shall not judge others (incl. feeling/religion)"
And seeing how bad this "arrogance" of "My way is the highway" is nowadays, I believe Jesus really meant do not judge other's (non)faiths

IF nobody judges other's faith THEN there will be no religious fighting anymore, which would solve maybe most of the killing in the world

To the point of it inducing a superiority complex in a way.
And that alone is as bad and as dangerous as Hitler was, which led to the killing of millions

As long as people have this superiority complex there is no use to even discuss the contents of their Scriptures, because the greatest evil in the world, IMHO, is Spiritual Superiority Complex. IF that is solved, I think the biggest part of the problem will be solved.
Then those verses that seem to be the cause/problem here, might not be a problem anymore, because people will resort to their common sense and their own discrimination faculty, instead of believing blindly what a human told them ca. 2000 years ago or 600 years later or whenever.

A Hindu Scripture (Yoga Vasistha) advises us to discard any Scriptural verse that feels not good to your (conscience, common sense etc). It also tells us to accept the words of a fool, if coincidentally these words make sense and feel good. When I read this, I felt so happy, to finally read something I believed in my whole life.

I was in a Christian Church, where they told us "do not trust your own feelings, that can be from the Devil". Oh my God, that was the Devil speaking, I was about to say, but I do not believe in the devil. But if the devil exists, then he would whisper something like this (no IMO here)
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
The "arrogance" is engrained right into the religious culture.
To the point of it inducing a superiority complex in a way

It's not very explicit. It's more a case of "lots of little fish, make up for a big whale".
Seeing the below quote of yours, I would say its maybe not explicit, but you have to be kind of blind to miss these hints
I would even say that such lines "Islam is the perfect religion", might be whispered in the ear by the Devil
It might have been God though, to test if people listen blindly to other people, even so called Prophets
Listening/following blindly might have its charm, but I can clearly see clearly quite a few drawback

Examples of such fish are, but is not limited to:
- islam is a "perfect" religion
- islam is the only "all encompassing" religion
- the quran is "perfect" in every way while the bible / torah is "corrupted" by man.
- the quran is the most "perfect" text ever and will remain such till the end of time
I see the danger clearly in such lines ... could have been Hitler saying this about his ideology
Obviously people fall for these things, being better than others, especially God related
Otherwise there would not be so many people following such religions
If they really knew the impact/consequences of these words
Because I hear Christians and Muslims both say it
(ca. 4.5 billion people, hence dangerous)

Maybe if I search well, some Hindus also say this. I am glad that my Guru specifically came to earth, according to Him, to teach that we should never belittle (non)faith of others, because all humans are incarnations of divinity. Belittling any human would therefore equates to belittling God.
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
Even when a non-muslim becomes muslim, in general in the religious culture, it is not said that the person "converted" to islam. Instead, it is said that the person "reverted" to islam, because in the religious culture there is this idea that all humans are born muslim and then get corrupted.
Quite an unfriendly thing to say indeed about non-muslims. Naturally non-muslims better argue fierce against such teaching

Then there's also this strong religious cultural idea of "brotherhood". As in that you never betray your muslim brothers and sisters. This is why you'll find it REALLY hard in general, to get "moderate muslims" to openly and strongly condemn al-qaida style folks (not necessarily only the violent ones) and distance themselves from them. Because they are "still muslims".
Good point, I never thought about that. I did figure out that as the Koran is perfect, and IF you disagree, that alone might give you a death fatwa

I can't even count the amount of times when I was talking to a moderate who indeed "condemned" an Osama Bin Laden, and then immediatly followed it up with "...but..." only to then say things in their defense which makes my jaw drop to the floor. As if they are two-faced or something.
IF I remember correctly, you have quite a few Muslims in your family (or was it friend circle). Anyway that feels almost like schizophrenia to me. Would be not easy for me to keep such people as friends, as I would not feel myself safe, remembering "tell me your company, I tell you who you are". If someone condones OBL he must have a very good reason for me to believe it

So all that together, kind of explains it for me.
It is, imo, behavior that is induced by the religious culture in general.
IMO too.

Culture can be great, but when it comes to violent fanatic religious culture it's the worst, because it's almost impossible to improve it.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Many religions, and surely all monotheist religions have that superiority complex. Tolerance is not a religious virtue.
Big issue, this superiority complex. The spiritual version is hundred times more dangerous then the worldly one. Solve this might give peace on earth

Tolerance though, is a spiritual virtue, that sadly is not followed by all. IMO tolerance is impossible for those claiming "my way is the highway"
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Are car mechanics shouting "Mitsubishi" while doing their evil acts?
Wow, that was a sublime answer, pinpointing and summarizing exactly where the problem lies

spiritual fanatical exhibition and superiority (only Mitsubishi is a safe car)

Sadly many people saw this as just funny I think
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
Wow, that was a sublime answer, pinpointing and summarizing exactly where the problem lies

spiritual fanatical exhibition and superiority (only Mitsubishi is a safe car)

Sadly many people saw this as funny
I hope some saw the meaning behind the humour.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
What a casual news viewer gets to know about Islam, is the extremists actions. (And you have to admit that there not a few extremists but a few tens of thousands. Not much in relation to all Muslims but so many that they generate a constant stream of bad news.) The moderate Muslims have a hard time condemning the actions of the extremists every time. (And when they do, that doesn't make into the news.)
Add to this the barbaric laws and behaviour of Muslim majority countries and the prejudice becomes a fact.
IMO extremism starts with the belief "my religion is better than the others, and belittling them, and esp. when claiming Koran and Muhammad are without flaws". I think it is safe for me to claim that it's a majority of the Muslims who believe this, and the number might be closer to 100% than 50%

IF true THEN this proves that Sam Harris pinpointed the problem perfectly in this case, with the below picture you shared

.
sam-harris-islamic-fundamentalism1.jpg
Thank you for sharing this picture. More truth in this than billions of people will be ready to admit I think
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
That has it's merit but only to a point. Judaism and Christianity have similar violent fundamentals and especially Christianity has acted upon those violent fundamentals in the past.
The difference is that the West (and with it Christianity) has made the transformation to a more civilized society through the Enlightenment.
Islam needs an Enlightenment.
That's fair to include the violence of Judaism and Christianity too.

And all those Avatars did not incarnate in India because those were all Saints:D

But I really hope that Islam does not need 1700 years to learn this lesson
Hence I think its high time to put some pressure on this issue
Because things can go much more wrong than 100 y ago

Better safe than sorry
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
I'm not sure what you mean here, I think God wants us to decide for ourselves which religions are wrong.

So in making those decisions I don't see myself as placing myself above God
IF you speak about Religions, do you mean the Scripture, the Prophet, the priests/imams etc. spreading it, the Church and other houses of worship?

I could imagine that the Religion God conveyed to the Prophet was perfect, but that the first listener already messed up a bit, being human, not to speak of all the others, who just knew things by hearsay, and again others mostly writing things down years if not decades later.
So, I would not say that any religion is wrong (because I see religion as what God gave, which is different than that what Prophets received and more different than what other listeners wrote down), but for sure I do see many wrongs done in name of religion.

Instead of "which Religions are wrong", I would say "which Religions act wrong". I see Religion as a gift of God, which got messed up by humans

Do you think evolution improved in 2000 years or did human memory degenerate?

If evolution has improved in 2000 years then that could mean that their capacity to remember things they heard, many years ago, would not be much better than ours now; could have been worse. Except maybe 7000 savants we have, with extreme memory capacity, it's quite safe to say that the majority is not able to remember stuff after so many years "in detail". Or let me speak for my self, I could not. I can't recall all what happened to me the past 56 years. And I also forgot quite a few of the mathematical formulas I learned studying engineering.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I think you have excellently explained the underlying issues. Your paragraph about the concept of brotherhood is an eye opener. I could never articulate that point because I didn't know they had the concept to that extreme. Now, to me, Islam sounds even more like a giant cult because those are strong characteristics of cult like behaviour.

It took a while for me to understand it as well.

The eye opener for me, was the whole deal with Salah Abdeslam and Mohammed Abrini. The two guys that were involved in the terror attacks in Paris and in Zaventem (Brussels). They were on the run for a couple of months before they got arrested.

During those months, many wondered where they were. Many thought they weren't in Belgium and were working with interpol and alike to track them done internationally. It was even assumed at some point that they managed to run to Syria.

As it turns out, they were in the Molenbeek area the whole time. The neighbourhood close to Brussels where these guys grew up and where everybody knows who they are. Especially so during that time period as their mugshots and names were all over the place.

Yet nobody snitched. Eventually, they were tracked down thanks to a nonchalant pizza order which was intercepted by investigators. Later on it became clear that they didn't even stay indoors in their "safehouse" 24/7. No... they took walks outside in the streets.

I find it extremely implausible that nobody ever saw them or knew they were in the area. So I started digging a bit deeper. There was this group called Shariah4Belgium, who played a BIG role early on, back in 2013-2015 in recruiting young muslims to send them off to syria.

This group was known to be very radical. They were constantly in public places on benches, preaching against the "satanic west". Their members frequented regular mosques and had very alarming talks with the local imams. The imams didn't call the authorities. The other members of the mosques didn't call the authorities. The parents of these kids didn't call the authorities. Why not?

If a radical christian would ask such questions to a local pastor, the cops would be there even before he leaves church.

That got me thinking even more. Globally, why don't we ever see mass protests or marches from the muslim community against these rotten apples?

When they massacred the artists and reporters at charlie hebdo, where was the outcry from the moderate muslim community?

No, instead, when it that massacre was brought up in conversation with moderates, I got responses like "I condemn these attacks but you know... Charlie Hebdo had it coming, what did they expect was going to happen?" :rolleyes:

It bears some resemblance to mafioso mentality, really.

A made guy can completely hate another made guy, but being a made guy - he is your brother, so you don't rat him out.

Tell me, have you ever heard of a muslim going to the authorities to rat on another muslim who's preparing an attack or radicalizing in terrorist circles? I haven't.

Do you think it's likely that no "moderate" muslim has ever noticed the intentions of a fundamentalist?
Heck no.


I realize I'm generalizing here, but I cannot deny that this trend in the muslim community is very very real and very present. In some to a bigger extent then others. But present nonetheless.



All of this ties in with something Sam Harris has said once... Although he was speaking in general, not Islam in particular. But imo it goes for Islam a lot more then for other religions. Paraphrasing:

"The problem isn't so much the fundamentalists. With fundamentalism, the real problem is the moderates. Because the fundamentalist can hide behind them. Whenever we critique the fundamentalist, the moderate will be there objecting to the critic at the address of his religion. With that behavior, they create sensitivities and lines that we supposedly can't cross. This effectively shields fundamentalists behind a curtain of "political correctness" and an unfair privilege of the religious of demanding immunity from criticism for their religion."
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I agree.

I agree again but your lack of other examples but Islam bothers me. Exceptionalism isn't limited to Islam. Many religions, and surely all monotheist religions have that superiority complex. Tolerance is not a religious virtue.

It's not exceptionalism.

I know of no religion other then islam that is so full of itself as islam is.

Yes, they all profess to be "the correct" religion. Well, most of them anyway.
But there is mostly nuance. It really isn't part of christian religious culture to state that the "bible is perfect in every way" for example. It is recognized, almost universally, that it was written by humans and at best merely "inspired" by god, which by definition leaves room for mistakes and alike.

Not so in Islam.
In Islam, the quran is dictated by god, word for word, and regarded as the epitome of perfection, served with the claim that no other text could ever compare.

These are core islamic beliefs.
To my knowledge, no other religion is that full of itself.

You are welcome to point one out if you think there is.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
IF I remember correctly, you have quite a few Muslims in your family (or was it friend circle).

Both. Well, it used to be back in school and a couple years after that.
These days (regardless of the whole covid19 mess) I'm so busy with my household and work, that there is little time left to socialize with and maintain a large group of friends.

So my social circle is much smaller then it used to be.
As it turns out, the only friends I still socialize with, are atheists.

This wasn't done on purpose. I guess when you have to narrow down the friends circle, you'll naturally gravitate towards those with whom you have most in common.


As for my family, good that you brought that up.
My dad, although I'ld classify him as a theist because he has some vague belief in a god, is what I would call a "cultural muslim". He doesn't go to mosque, I don't think he still has a quran (and if he has, it's in the attic with several inches of dust on it) and sometimes he does the Ramadan mostly as an excuse to loose some weight and then celebrates the end of it with wiskey and pork chops.

He's retired now, but he used to work at the general motors factory. When he still worked, there was this big commotion in Belgium because of a muslim who was associated with Hezbollah who was entering politics in Belgium. He wasn't radical to the point that he'ld go on terror attacks, but he wasn't exactly a moderate either. But a clear homophobe, anti-secularism, etc. He came to the plant for campaigning. He ignored all the "natives" and went straight for the immigrants that looked arab, assuming they'ld all be muslims or from muslim cultural heritage. This included my dad.

Eventhough my dad didn't even qualify as a "moderate muslim" (for reasons outlined above), still this was a very sensitive subject to talk about. I knew the guy came to the plant, so I asked my dad about it.
It was very hard to get him to say anything at all about it. Almost as if he was afraid of the guy, or from "something". He couldn't seem to bring himself to condemn the guy and his ideas as strongly as he did with other politicians on the extreme right - who eventhough they were neo nazi racists, were actually more tolerant then this guy.

I thought that was very weird.

I understand today why this was so hard for him. It's basically childhood brainwashing.

Anyway that feels almost like schizophrenia to me.

Almost, but not quite.
The idea here is that "he is a muslim, so by definition he can't be THAT bad"

Take 2 people, a muslim and a non-muslim, and have them commit the exact same brutal crime.
In general, you'll find that muslims will have a far easier time strongly condemning the non-muslim for said crime.

They'll be way more apologetic for the muslim guy who does the same thing.

Would be not easy for me to keep such people as friends, as I would not feel myself safe, remembering "tell me your company, I tell you who you are". If someone condones OBL he must have a very good reason for me to believe it

I understand.

The individuals themselves don't scare me though. Their condemnation (no matter the qualifiers) tells me that in their gut they know and realize how evil it is.

What does worry me though.... is when you move from the individual to the "herd".
What this "silence" tells me, is that they will also remain silent if such radicals grab power. They'ld not stand up against it and instead likely just follow.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of Muslims aren't violent.
The problem is that even a small, violent minority makes for some tens if not hundreds of thousands of potential (and actual) terrorists.
And while they may in error to interpret their religion as calling for violence, it sure didn't discourage them.
That is not only so for Islam but in our age it is most pronounced in Islam.

It's not that most Muslims won't condemn terrorism, it's that they won't the condemn the Qur'an and Hadith for giving the fundaments for the terrorism.

Why would they condemn the Quran? The Quran brought peace to the Arabian Peninsula between savage warring tribes who killed, raped and pillaged and made of them a great nation. The Quran stopped terrorism and brought law and order.

There is absolutely no verse in the Quran which promotes violence, only self defense after the Meccans attempted to wipe out (genocide) the entire Muslim community over a period of 13 years. Only after 13 years of persecution were they permitted to defend themselves and most of them did not want to fight but this verse was revealed. I have included a number of different translators to show that it is clear and not just one translator.

The Quran always taught peace and there are verses against hadiths.

Sura 31:6

31:6 Among the people, there are those who accept baseless hadiths to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.


2: 190 And fight for the religion of GOD against those who fight against you; but transgress not by attacking them first, for GOD loveth not the transgressors.


George Sale


2:190 And fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: but commit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not such injustice:


J M Rodwell



2:190 Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love aggressors.


N J Dawood



2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
So this is a problematic reply you have given us. You aren't giving us examples to prove that he is uneducated in Islam therefore we have no reason to believe that he is uneducated based on what we hear from him. And then what level of education is acceptable because most muslims don't even understand what the Quran says?

Just brushing off peoples arguments by attacking their character and making blanket statements without proof makes it seem like you don't want to confront criticism in any healthy way. (Emphasis on SEEMS)

What you said is true. Just brushing off peoples arguments by saying they are not educated in a subject is a cheap thing to do, but that's not the case here. Also, you did not question the proponent why they embrace someones argument without checking the sources, apply criticism, and some analysis. I dont mean to offend you, but but you should do that.

Anyway, when someone makes one post quoting one quotation of Sam Harriss, which is just a quote with no sources and no criticism, that's very shallow. You should question that too. Also, responding to that, one cannot make an assessment as large as you expect. Maybe a new thread is needed for that.

Anyway let ask you something. Sam Harris speaks about "Fundamentals of Islam". I am saying that he has no education whatsoever on what he is speaking about. But since you are asking for reasons, please give me the "fundamentals" he is speaking about, and I will give you the reasons why I say he has no clue of what he is speaking about.

Peace.
 
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