Why condemn a whole people if only a few do wrong?

[stvdv]

So my social circle is much smaller then it used to be.
As it turns out, the only friends I still socialize with, are atheists.

This wasn't done on purpose. I guess when you have to narrow down the friends circle, you'll naturally gravitate towards those with whom you have most in common.

I can understand this. My social circle never was large, but last few years it reduced drastically. For me the major criteria is that they don't belittle others(' feelings). I can handle extreme views, but ca. 8 'friends' demanded that I shared their views (parents, some QAnon others political), and it was not enough that I said "You go for it, but this is not my thing, please take me off your BCC list; time will tell me later".

As for my family, good that you brought that up.
My dad, although I'ld classify him as a theist because he has some vague belief in a god, is what I would call a "cultural muslim".....
He's retired now, but he used to work at the general motors factory. When he still worked, there was this big commotion in Belgium because of a muslim who was associated with Hezbollah who was entering politics in Belgium. He wasn't radical to the point that he'ld go on terror attacks, but he wasn't exactly a moderate either. But a clear homophobe, anti-secularism, etc. He came to the plant for campaigning. He ignored all the "natives" and went straight for the immigrants that looked arab, assuming they'ld all be muslims or from muslim cultural heritage. This included my dad.

Eventhough my dad didn't even qualify as a "moderate muslim" (for reasons outlined above), still this was a very sensitive subject to talk about. I knew the guy came to the plant, so I asked my dad about it.
It was very hard to get him to say anything at all about it. Almost as if he was afraid of the guy, or from "something". He couldn't seem to bring himself to condemn the guy and his ideas as strongly as he did with other politicians on the extreme right - who eventhough they were neo nazi racists, were actually more tolerant then this guy.

I thought that was very weird.

I understand today why this was so hard for him. It's basically childhood brainwashing.

Thank you for sharing your story. Knowing this context, I can understand why you were able to put it down so clear; you went through it yourself, those are the best teaching moments (not the easiest of course, or pleasant ones). But learning from these you know it on a deep level.

Almost, but not quite.
The idea here is that "he is a muslim, so by definition he can't be THAT bad"

Take 2 people, a muslim and a non-muslim, and have them commit the exact same brutal crime.
In general, you'll find that muslims will have a far easier time strongly condemning the non-muslim for said crime.

They'll be way more apologetic for the muslim guy who does the same thing.

Just imagine if you have a Muslim sitting as judge (the system they have in USA). You think that its kind of impossible to be impartial? Would work perfect in Muslim only country though. But I think also for me it's difficult to be impartial; maybe just a human thing (like family comes first, the mafia seems to say that even; if I can believe the movies)

The individuals themselves don't scare me though. Their condemnation (no matter the qualifiers) tells me that in their gut they know and realize how evil it is.

What does worry me though.... is when you move from the individual to the "herd".
What this "silence" tells me, is that they will also remain silent if such radicals grab power. They'ld not stand up against it and instead likely just follow.

We even had the NSB'ers in the WW2 doing similar, but maybe this would be worse in your scenario. Just yesterday I heard an interview with an Iranian woman (living in Holland) who had to leave Iran around 1998, due to the start of Iranian dictatorship (husband would be hanged for speaking his mind). She and others were thinking "how is it possible people let this dictatorship happen"; maybe your explanation makes sense; though knowing about WW2, I think it's also a human thing; not alert enough and too much drowned in surviving/enjoying life, they wait too long to react; not ad rem.

 

[Heyo]

Tell me, have you ever heard of a muslim going to the authorities to rat on another muslim who's preparing an attack or radicalizing in terrorist circles? I haven't.

I have. Can't find the article now (and it would have been in German anyway) but it happened. Second generation immigrants though, they have been socialized in integrated.

 

[Heyo]

Why would they condemn the Quran? The Quran brought peace to the Arabian Peninsula between savage warring tribes who killed, raped and pillaged and made of them a great nation. The Quran stopped terrorism and brought law and order.

There is absolutely no verse in the Quran which promotes violence, only self defense after the Meccans attempted to wipe out (genocide) the entire Muslim community over a period of 13 years. Only after 13 years of persecution were they permitted to defend themselves and most of them did not want to fight but this verse was revealed. I have included a number of different translators to show that it is clear and not just one translator.

The Quran always taught peace and there are verses against hadiths.

Sura 31:6

31:6 Among the people, there are those who accept baseless hadiths to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.


2: 190 And fight for the religion of GOD against those who fight against you; but transgress not by attacking them first, for GOD loveth not the transgressors.


George Sale


2:190 And fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: but commit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not such injustice:


J M Rodwell



2:190 Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love aggressors.


N J Dawood



2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

I won't argue scripture with you. Just tell me why all the terrorists cite the Qur'an and why they say they are fighting for Islam? Why is it that millions of Muslims get upset when in Denmark cartoonists draw the prophet and some want to murder the publishers (and do so)? Why are Muslim majority countries funding this terrorism? Why do Muslim majority countries have barbaric laws?
Is there no one but you who understands the peaceful message of the Qur'an?

 

[Samael_Khan]

What you said is true. Just brushing off peoples arguments by saying they are not educated in a subject is a cheap thing to do, but that's not the case here. Also, you did not question the proponent why they embrace someones argument without checking the sources, apply criticism, and some analysis. I dont mean to offend you, but but you should do that.

That is true, but it works both ways. Someone that isn't true it should be easy to refute it. No offense taken

Anyway, when someone makes one post quoting one quotation of Sam Harriss, which is just a quote with no sources and no criticism, that's very shallow. You should question that too. Also, responding to that, one cannot make an assessment as large as you expect. Maybe a new thread is needed for that.

That is actually a very good point. Just a note, I am not saying that he is educated on Islam. What I am saying is that you reply wasn't sufficient, since refuting him should be easy I would think, and I am pretty sure that you can do better than that. You are usually more thorough in your explanations of things.

Anyway let ask you something. Sam Harris speaks about "Fundamentals of Islam". I am saying that he has no education whatsoever on what he is speaking about. But since you are asking for reasons, please give me the "fundamentals" he is speaking about, and I will give you the reasons why I say he has no clue of what he is speaking about.

Peace.

I have hardly ever listened to Harris but I have watched many debates between muslims and Islam critics and since the criticism would probably be the same, as there is a common thread, I will relay what I have heard.

So common criticisms of what the fundamentals of Islam are:

- violence
- subjugation of women
- a violent prophet who muslims have to imitate
- not questioning the religion. So no thought crime.
- Killing apostates
- Takhiya - lying for the religion
- pressuring people to convert to the religion when muslims are in the majority
- treating Jews and Christians as lesser citizens
- persecuting those non-muslims who aren't people of the book
- acting peaceful when muslims are in the minority but showing aggression to those in the minority when they are the majority
- Aiming to take over the world (hence the fast spread of the Islamic Empire during the religions infancy.)
- Genital mutilation of girls
- beating women if they displease you

I can't remember anything else at the moment unless it is theological differences between Islam and Christianity. I do think that Sam Harris is extreme in his views but has some good points here and there. You can start with these in the meantime.

 

[74x12]

A very classical issue that occure not only in RF but in daily life on earth, is that people judge everyone from a group if one of them do wrong.

Example if one muslim do wrong, every muslim must be evil.

If one Christian do wrong Christianity must be evil?

How about if a car mechanic do an evil action, example murder or rape, does every car mechanics become evil human beings?

So why Do you judge differently if a bad person come from a religious background?

About car mechanics ... yes since most of them are men they are now all considered evil. All men are evil. It's getting ridiculous.

 

[Spirit of Light]

About car mechanics ... yes since most of them are men they are now all considered evil. All men are evil. It's getting ridiculous.

Ridiculous in what way?

 

[74x12]

Ridiculous in what way?

How they claim all men are evil or all muslims or all Christians etc.

 

[Spirit of Light]

How they claim all men are evil or all muslims or all Christians etc.

Yes, if a few people from a group do wrong does not make everyone from that group evil or bad

 

[danieldemol]

But since you are asking for reasons, please give me the "fundamentals" he is speaking about, and I will give you the reasons why I say he has no clue of what he is speaking about.

I don't know what Sam Harris is saying are the fundamentals of Islam, but I do know that at least one fundamental of Islam is wrong in my opinion. That would be the infallibility of the Quran (ie that there is no error in it).

Demonstrably wrong because Surah 2:282 states, 'And get two witnesses out of your own men and if there are not two men then a man and two women such as ye choose for witnesses so that if one of them errs the other can remind her.'

Even if only interpreted in context of financial transactions it is still an unnecessary inconvenience to women in my opinion and it doesn't take much empathy for women to realise that this man-made error needs correction.

 

[firedragon]

So common criticisms of what the fundamentals of Islam are:

Brother. I asked for "Fundamentals of Islam that Sam Harris is speaking about".

Not some common criticisms. Anyone can find some. The question is specific to the issue you raised.

Hope you understand.

 

[firedragon]

I don't know what Sam Harris is saying are the fundamentals of Islam,

Then that's not relevant to the issue raised. Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

Demonstrably wrong because Surah 2:282 states, 'And get two witnesses out of your own men and if there are not two men then a man and two women such as ye choose for witnesses so that if one of them errs the other can remind her.'

Thats because you are looking at it from a misogynistic viewpoint. Also, I think you have a very huge need to bring out some point to condemn Islam even though it is irrelevant.

You also intentionally misquoted the verse. Who told you that it is a woman that has to remind the other woman? No one said that! You have created that in your own mind because you think women are stupid or something. That is your problem mate.

The verse doesnt say that. The verse just says "two men, or one man and two women, so that if one errs, the other can remind". That does not mean it is referring to the woman alone which is a male chauvinistic rendition you have gathered because of some innate problem with whoever who told you this, and you accepted it because of your own rendition issues.

Kind of lame to see an opportunity on an irrelevant post about Sam Harris to bring this up and I do believe you have been told dozens, if not 100s of times this same thing.

Have a great day.

 

[danieldemol]

Thats because you are looking at it from a misogynistic viewpoint. Also, I think you have a very huge need to bring out some point to condemn Islam even though it is irrelevant.

In my opinion it is relevant to Sam Harris's statement that Islam is wrong on the basic level (ie it's fundamental)

You also intentionally misquoted the verse. Who told you that it is a woman that has to remind the other woman? No one said that! You have created that in your own mind because you think women are stupid or something. That is your problem mate.

That is just ignorance on your part of the fact that the quotation was a direct copy paste of Yusuf Ali from the following Islamic website;
Surah 2. Al-Baqara Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim

No I do not think women are stupid. Why you would come up with such ridiculous ad-hominem is beyond me.

Kind of lame to see an opportunity on an irrelevant post about Sam Harris to bring this up and I do believe you have been told dozens, if not 100s of times this same thing.

It is not irrelevant in my opinion to what Sam Harris said about the fundamentals of Islam, and never lame in my opinion to stand against the undue inconvenience to women imposed by the arbitrary tenets of religion.

 

[firedragon]

In my opinion it is relevant to Sam Harris's statement that Islam is wrong on the basic level (ie it's fundamental)

You intentionally turned around everything to suit your agenda.

Is it "Sam Harris saying Islam is wrong" we were discussing? Show me where please.

There is no point discussing anything with someone who has some agenda and to suit that he misquotes people he hates and worships.

 

[firedragon]

That is just ignorance on your part of the fact that the quotation was a direct copy paste of Yusuf Ali from the following Islamic website;
Surah 2. Al-Baqara Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim

No I do not think women are stupid. Why you would come up with such ridiculous ad-hominem is beyond me.

Nope. You are intending to call someone ignorant so you just said that. I will cut and paste my comment again so that you could read it. Maybe I will open another thread, for maybe the 10th time to fulfil your need to "Hate Islam". OK brother. So be a bit patient. In the meantime, I will cut and paste once more.

The verse doesnt say that. The verse just says "two men, or one man and two women, so that if one errs, the other can remind". That does not mean it is referring to the woman alone which is a male chauvinistic rendition you have gathered because of some innate problem with whoever who told you this, and you accepted it because of your own rendition issues.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Brother. I asked for "Fundamentals of Islam that Sam Harris is speaking about".

Not some common criticisms. Anyone can find some. The question is specific to the issue you raised.

Hope you understand.

OK. So I am gonna be watching Sam Harris videos today to see what he is talking about. Here is one to start with which is very brief and doesn't go into details as it is a clip:

The only problem with Islamic fundamentalism (bible-quran.com)

A good point that he does make is ironically what I said earlier. Fundamentalism isn't the problem because with certain religion the more extreme someone gets, the more peaceful they would be. Jainism and JW's come to mind. With Islam, when people take it to the extreme they become violent and it is difficult for muslims to out rightly condemn them using their scriptures, maybe this is due to Quranic illiteracy on most muslims part, but that does show a flaw in the muslim world. This also makes one think that if it is so difficult for muslims to outrightly condemn them using scripture, then the fundamentals of the religion might be the problem. This is different to Christianity because Christians easily point to the NT and say that they are under a new covenant in which they shouldn't be violent as they are awaiting Armageddon for Christ to kill their enemies, which means at the core of Christianity according to its texts there is non violence.

 

[danieldemol]

Nope. You are intending to call someone ignorant so you just said that. I will cut and paste my comment again so that you could read it. Maybe I will open another thread, for maybe the 10th time to fulfil your need to "Hate Islam". OK brother. So be a bit patient.

ROFL at me having a 'need to "Hate Islam"'
I suppose that because you comment on the Bible without bowing down before it, it means you hate Christianity? Or maybe you do hate Christianity and hence projecting your own attitudes onto others?

In the meantime, I will cut and paste once more.

The verse doesnt say that. The verse just says "two men, or one man and two women, so that if one errs, the other can remind". That does not mean it is referring to the woman alone which is a male chauvinistic rendition you have gathered because of some innate problem with whoever who told you this, and you accepted it because of your own rendition issues.

Here you are cherrypicking a different part of the post to the one I was replying to.
I did not say that your interpretation of the verse was ignorant, I said that you claiming, "You also intentionally misquoted the verse. Who told you that it is a woman that has to remind the other woman? No one said that! You have created that in your own mind" because i did not misquote, rather i accurately copy pasted, and someone did say that (Yusuf Ali) and I did not create it in my own mind.

 

[firedragon]

ROFL at me having a 'need to "Hate Islam"'
I suppose that because you comment on the Bible without bowing down before it, it means you hate Christianity? Or maybe you do hate Christianity and hence projecting your own attitudes onto others?

Nope. Because you say things like "I dont know what Sam Harris said, but this is what I think" and spread some.

Thats a need showing up.

No point mate. Have a blast.

 

[firedragon]

OK. So I am gonna be watching Sam Harris videos today to see what he is talking about. Here is one to start with which is very brief and doesn't go into details as it is a clip:

The only problem with Islamic fundamentalism (bible-quran.com)

A good point that he does make is ironically what I said earlier. Fundamentalism isn't the problem because with certain religion the more extreme someone gets, the more peaceful they would be. Jainism and JW's come to mind. With Islam, when people take it to the extreme they become violent and it is difficult for muslims to out rightly condemn them using their scriptures, maybe this is due to Quranic illiteracy on most muslims part, but that does show a flaw in the muslim world. This also makes one think that if it is so difficult for muslims to outrightly condemn them using scripture, then the fundamentals of the religion might be the problem. This is different to Christianity because Christians easily point to the NT and say that they are under a new covenant in which they shouldn't be violent as they are awaiting Armageddon for Christ to kill their enemies, which means at the core of Christianity according to its texts there is non violence.

Brother. Show me something specific Sam Harris says as "Fundamentals of Islam". If you wish to speak of what he is ignorant of in Christianity and every other religion we can discuss that separately.

Cheers.

 

[danieldemol]

You intentionally turned around everything to suit your agenda.

Is it "Sam Harris saying Islam is wrong" we were discussing? Show me where please.

There is no point discussing anything with someone who has some agenda and to suit that he misquotes people he hates and worships.

Sam Harris is saying there is a problem with the fundamentals of Islam, a way of paraphrasing that is to say at least some of the fundamentals of Islam are wrong.

No twisting to suit an agenda required in my opinion.