Why condemn a whole people if only a few do wrong?

[Heyo]

Lol. You "trust". Because you want to?

Mate. He is absolutely uneducated in Islam. Absolutely. Only a hypocrite would talk about a theology pretending he knows it well, and in my honest opinion, he is.

So, even if he is uneducated, the facts remain: there are enough terrorist acts in the world, committed in the name of Islam, to send a very clear message to everyone who doesn't like terrorism.
We at least agree on that fact, don't we?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

when I read your reply, my first thought was "I think these inconvenient words will again be ignored"

Agreed. Me, too. In fact, I assume it.

It's a very common problem these days in discourse. It seems that too many people cannot answer responsively and in good faith, by which I mean addressing the elements of the post specifically and sequentially. That means that claims made and conclusions drawn each be addressed with some form of acknowledgement that's either the agreed I gave you, or a specific rebuttal. It also means that all non-rhetorical questions be answered. It's amazing to me how often this doesn't happen, and discourse ends as soon as it doesn't. The discussion stalls right there. And it won't be long that the rebutted claim is repeated with no sign that the writer even saw that rebuttal.

But many others can and do do this. They are the ones I have discussion with. They are also the people in my social orbit, which these days is all virtual.

The others, I regard and treat differently. You saw the response I got on that post. That conversation will progress no further, since the points I made were largely ignored and the original claims repeated unchanged. That discussion ended after the first response.

 

[Vinayaka]

To be a follower of a God, means you obey that Gods commandments, if one do not do so, one are not a follower or believer in the teaching.

My God doesn't make commandments. We're obviously not following the same God.

 

[firedragon]

So, even if he is uneducated, the facts remain: there are enough terrorist acts in the world, committed in the name of Islam, to send a very clear message to everyone who doesn't like terrorism.
We at least agree on that fact, don't we?

Oh yes. But there were more terrorist acts by Hindus, a small group of them, led by a Christian. You probably didn't know because Sam Harris doesnt speak about it.

Strange isn't it?

 

[viole]

Please explain.

Explain what?

ciao

- viole

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Explain what?

ciao

- viole

...are also evil.

 

[Samael_Khan]

The bolded part reminded me of a cartoon concerning saudi arabia's behavior when it came to dealing with Syrian refugees a couple of years ago:

View attachment 48363

Yeah, Hypocrisy at its best.

Yes.

And in all honesty @Conscious thoughts , this is literally my experience of conversing with muslims on the internet as opposed to those of any other faith.

The communication with christians is a lot easier. While they will also avoid certain subjects, it is generally much easier to get them to be explicit about what they believe. Not so with muslims. I usually have to go to great lengths to get answers to direct questions - and most of the time, not even then.

Even on this very forum, conversation with muslims (you, but especially @firedragon ) is rather "difficult" compared to with the christians.


I usually don't know what "brand" of muslim the person I speak to is on forums.
But I most definatly recognise the "arrogance" part. Yes, it is rather curious that that seems to come up more in conversations with muslims then it does with christians.

It is definitely much easier to speak to most Christians than with muslims. I am not surprised that you have similar sentiment to what I am saying because most non muslims I interact with feel the same way.

My question then is: why is it that people around the world have similar experiences with muslims? That means that individual cultures aren't the cause. My gut tells me that there must be something said or unsaid in the religion that is causing this attitude in them.

 

[Samael_Khan]

True again

Contradiction I don't mind, but here is the real BIG issue: they are so much blinded by their arrogance, that they can't even see reality anymore

I fully agree with that. Because what the group says and documents IS reality to them which isolates them from the reality of the world.

 

[Heyo]

Oh yes. But there were more terrorist acts by Hindus, a small group of them, led by a Christian. You probably didn't know because Sam Harris doesnt speak about it.

Strange isn't it?

Sam Harris isn't my only source for news but you are right, I haven't heard about an international Hindu group committing terrorist acts in the name of Hinduism. Do you have some links?

 

[stvdv]

A very classical issue that occure not only in RF but in daily life on earth, is that people judge everyone from a group if one of them do wrong.

In your above quote, you seems to do exactly the same (and more) of what you say "people" do:
1) You state it as a claim "a very classical issue that occur" instead of "your opinion"
2) You are also generalizing when saying "people" instead of "some people"
3) You generalize again saying "everyone" instead of "most/majority"
4) You exaggerate saying "one" instead of "quite a few"

So, IF you do introspection and understand why you do this THEN probably you understand why others do it too.

IMHO:
A better phrase would have been: "a classical issue IMHO .... is, that SOME people judge the majority from a group if some they know do wrong"

 

[stvdv]

I fully agree with that. Because what the group says and documents IS reality to them which isolates them from the reality of the world.

Yes. And that is a friendlier way of saying it then I did

Becomes interesting, when there are multiple realities though

Note:
IMO, any creature can only see that much of the Truth/Reality as he has internalized
The Full Universal Truth can't possibly be seen by Planetarian humans
Just like a worm can't fathom the same Truth as a human can
Or a madman can't fathom the same depth of a worm

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It is definitely much easier to speak to most Christians than with muslims. I am not surprised that you have similar sentiment to what I am saying because most non muslims I interact with feel the same way.

My question then is: why is it that people around the world have similar experiences with muslims? That means that individual cultures aren't the cause. My gut tells me that there must be something said or unsaid in the religion that is causing this attitude in them.

I have a theory.

The "arrogance" is engrained right into the religious culture. To the point of it inducing a superiority complex in a way. It's not very explicit. It's more a case of "lots of little fish, make up for a big whale".

Examples of such fish are, but is not limited to:
- islam is a "perfect" religion
- islam is the only "all encompassing" religion
- the quran is "perfect" in every way while the bible / torah is "corrupted" by man.
- the quran is the most "perfect" text ever and will remain such till the end of time
- ...

Even when a non-muslim becomes muslim, in general in the religious culture, it is not said that the person "converted" to islam. Instead, it is said that the person "reverted" to islam, because in the religious culture there is this idea that all humans are born muslim and then get corrupted.

Then there's also this strong religious cultural idea of "brotherhood". As in that you never betray your muslim brothers and sisters. This is why you'll find it REALLY hard in general, to get "moderate muslims" to openly and strongly condemn al-qaida style folks (not necessarily only the violent ones) and distance themselves from them. Because they are "still muslims".

I can't even count the amount of times when I was talking to a moderate who indeed "condemned" an Osama Bin Laden, and then immediatly followed it up with "...but..." only to then say things in their defense which makes my jaw drop to the floor. As if they are two-faced or something.



So all that together, kind of explains it for me.
It is, imo, behavior that is induced by the religious culture in general.

 

[stvdv]

My God doesn't make commandments. We're obviously not following the same God.

That's a wonderful God, I love your God

My God gives well meant advice though
Telling us to feel free to pay no heed to His Advice, if it feels bad to you
But be prepared to face the consequences when God's advice happened to be less painful after all

 

[blü 2]

A very classical issue that occure not only in RF but in daily life on earth, is that people judge everyone from a group if one of them do wrong.

In the Christian version of the Garden story, which throws in the "Fall of Man", God did exactly that to humans.

(In the actual Garden story that isn't what [he] does.)

 

[loverofhumanity]

A very classical issue that occure not only in RF but in daily life on earth, is that people judge everyone from a group if one of them do wrong.

Example if one muslim do wrong, every muslim must be evil.

If one Christian do wrong Christianity must be evil?

How about if a car mechanic do an evil action, example murder or rape, does every car mechanics become evil human beings?

So why Do you judge differently if a bad person come from a religious background?

Ignorant prejudice. I have come across many who attack the Quran but have never read a word of it yet act like experts.

 

[idea]

It is my firm belief that as a group (muslims,christians etc) the good, and there are far more good than bad) should do what they can to reduced the bad. Unfortunately they don't, they just say he/she is not a true muslim/christian so its nothing to do with us and walk away from the evil that their faith has helped to produce

Exactly - if one car mechanic goes bad, and the company that hired him does not fire the guy, and other employees expect everyone to continue doing business there.... It is not about that one bad car mechanic anymore, it is about the entire company.

A good company educates their employees, and fosters a safe culture that finds healthy ways to solve problems that come up.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yes. And that is a friendlier way of saying it then I did

Becomes interesting, when there are multiple realities though

Note:
IMO, any creature can only see that much of the Truth/Reality as he has internalized
The Full Universal Truth can't possibly be seen by Planetarian humans
Just like a worm can't fathom the same Truth as a human can
Or a madman can't fathom the same depth of a worm

Well I would never say that we know universal truth, that is impossible because we cannot know what we do not know and are yet to discover or not discover at all. What we see as truth is only what we can examine and possibly imagine. We cannot include in our perception of reality what we do not know.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I have a theory.

The "arrogance" is engrained right into the religious culture. To the point of it inducing a superiority complex in a way. It's not very explicit. It's more a case of "lots of little fish, make up for a big whale".

Examples of such fish are, but is not limited to:
- islam is a "perfect" religion
- islam is the only "all encompassing" religion
- the quran is "perfect" in every way while the bible / torah is "corrupted" by man.
- the quran is the most "perfect" text ever and will remain such till the end of time
- ...

Even when a non-muslim becomes muslim, in general in the religious culture, it is not said that the person "converted" to islam. Instead, it is said that the person "reverted" to islam, because in the religious culture there is this idea that all humans are born muslim and then get corrupted.

Then there's also this strong religious cultural idea of "brotherhood". As in that you never betray your muslim brothers and sisters. This is why you'll find it REALLY hard in general, to get "moderate muslims" to openly and strongly condemn al-qaida style folks (not necessarily only the violent ones) and distance themselves from them. Because they are "still muslims".

I can't even count the amount of times when I was talking to a moderate who indeed "condemned" an Osama Bin Laden, and then immediatly followed it up with "...but..." only to then say things in their defense which makes my jaw drop to the floor. As if they are two-faced or something.



So all that together, kind of explains it for me.
It is, imo, behavior that is induced by the religious culture in general.

I think you have excellently explained the underlying issues. Your paragraph about the concept of brotherhood is an eye opener. I could never articulate that point because I didn't know they had the concept to that extreme. Now, to me, Islam sounds even more like a giant cult because those are strong characteristics of cult like behaviour.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Sam Harris isn't my only source for news but you are right, I haven't heard about an international Hindu group committing terrorist acts in the name of Hinduism. Do you have some links?

I do know of a cult called Thuggee who killed people to please their god Kali:

Thuggee - Wikipedia

 

[Samael_Khan]

He is educated in western thinking, in current affairs and I trust he read (a translation of) the Qur'an. That may not make him an authority on Islam but I think he is qualified to talk about the perception of Islam - which was the question.
I'm even less educated, I haven't read the Qur'an and I don't have to. I look at what is happening. And from what I see I can tell that if I don't understand the Qur'an correctly, there are many, many Muslim who don't either. And from what I can see i can deduce that Islam either has a violence problem or a problem to communicate its non-violence stance. The effect is the same, we see violence from Muslims and they have a Qur'an or Hadith verse to justify it.

I would say though that the majority of Muslims do not commit terrorist acts. I don't know whether the majority of them are violent or not and if that is encouraged by the religion.

But if the concept of brotherhood in Islam is causing them not to condemn terrorists as a whole, then that would show an underlying problem caused by the religion.