Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
And then you saw sensationalized accounts of NDEs and OOBEs and suddenly all that went out the window?
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Why Debate the Existence of God with Non-believers?
- Thread starter steeltoes
- Start date
And then you saw sensationalized accounts of NDEs and OOBEs and suddenly all that went out the window?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
In my experience atheists can seem to be 'rebelling' against say an aggressively religious upbringing, that can also lead to the 'doosy', atheistic Satanism.
p.s. can. not always.
I didn't see them as sensationalized but as sincere.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Then that's understandable. Still, you would think there would be experimentation involved at least on your part...ever stick a fork in an outlet?
No, no, that is not it.
I told you in the past already that theism is a vocation to many. As is atheism.
Some people are somewhat in-between, but those tend not to declare themselves atheists at all often, because there is little social encouragement for them to.
And you.. do not look like even a former atheist. Rare as those are in the first place.
Then that's understandable. Still, you would think there would be experimentation involved at least on your part...ever stick a fork in an outlet?
I don't think I understand your question...
brokensymmetry
ground state
I can think of a lot of reasons. Perhaps your own position needs refinement and tweaking and thorough debate is a really good way to help that process. Perhaps you just enjoy debate, I know I enjoy a good challenge this way. You may feel strongly that people are believing in incorrect things and that negatively impacts their lives or their lives of others, so have an ethical motivation.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Right, therefore the belief part is not all encompassing to the issue.
Are you attempting to make fun of what I said?
I don't.
What I may do is assist others in understanding various maps of the territory. Asking whether or not something "exists" is kind of... silly to me. Everything exists. The correct question is in what fashion something exists by your understanding of the territory.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Nope, stating a fact, unless I think 'vocation' means something different from what you meant.
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It sounded strange, sorry if I jumped the gun.
Belief or lack of same is what an atheist or theist makes. But most people who decide to call themselves atheists are, in fact, ill at ease with the idea of attempting to believe in God.
Belief or lack of same is what an atheist or theist makes. But most people who decide to call themselves atheists are, in fact, ill at ease with the idea of attempting to believe in God.
Who else are you going to debate it with?
HeatherAnn
Active Member
I don't believe in popular religious dogma, but I consider God to be reality/eternal truth.
My passion is teaching - it's just how I feel alive!
How we view things affects how we feel emotionally & even physiologically.
I generally care about everyone in my sphere of influence - I want them to feel and be healthy and try to teach beliefs that are functional.
Everything we think is illusional in the sense that it is all subjective and limited in scope. We need functional illusions... beliefs that motivate us - particularly subconsciously.
Most of what we think & do originates subconsciously - an overwhelmingly powerful part of us! Getting in touch with our own personal beliefs - and love (aka God) is getting in touch with this powerful part of us!
If more people were more "conscious" about what motivates them (aka what they worship/god &) how thy think and feel and act, this world would be a better place!
Because it is fun. : hamster :
The Conservative Atheist
Member
Well it's important to debate the existence of God for multiple reasons, the main one being that people live and act as though he were real and wanted people to do things, and if God isn't real then people living their lives to try and please him is an issue.
Oh man, yes!! This is the conversation I've been waiting to hear. You're absolutely correct. God being a literal, actual sky-deity of whatever tradition forms or portrays it, is ultimately irrelevant to the function of God (in this context I'm speaking of an image, a symbol, an archetype) and how it draws out of the subconscious the yet unrealized nature of who we are. We come to know ourselves through God.
Why? Because in a theistic image of the Absolute, or the Infinite, there is an "I-Thou" relationship. A 2nd person perspective, which creates a relationship to ourselves, through our relationship to the other. This is how we function in normal daily interactions, where our relationship with and to the other, creates our own self-sense. So when it comes to the theistic view of God, God plays the role of the "Holy-Other". We lay ourselves down before this form of the Divine, we humble ourselves, we empty ourselves of ego and its striving and self-seeking. Only in this, in that moment of abandoning the small self, the egoic "I", do we begin to see that "me" beyond the ego. It is to say the least, liberating. That relationship moves that to one of freedom and equality, a marriage of the soul with the Divine, and the ego is transcended. It tells us of our Divine nature and Identity.
These are the roles of archetypes. To quote from Ken Wilber, whom I'm an avid admirer of his insights, this really expresses well that realization I came to in myself in moving away from identifying myself as an atheist.
"But this is not God as an ontological other, set apart from the cosmos, from humans, and from creation at large. Rather, it is God as an archetypal summit of one's own Consciousness. ... By visualizing that identification 'we actually do become the deity. The subject is identified with the object of faith. The worship, the worshiper, and the worshiped, those three are not separate'. At its peak, the soul becomes one, literally one, with the deity-form, with the dhyani-buddha, with (choose whatever term one prefers) God. One dissolves into Deity, as Deity - that Deity which, from the beginning, has been one's own Self or highest Archetype."
~Ken Wilber, Eye to Eye, pg. 85
~Ken Wilber, Eye to Eye, pg. 85
The power of belief, of visualization, of faith in direct experience (not faith as a cognitive belief, but a faith of the entire being in abandoning itself to the unknown), is undeniably powerful in individual practice. But it must be realized in actual practice, and not just some doctrinal statement of faith. I see those as comparable to the training wheels on a bicycle that serve only to show you what balance is supposed to look or feel like, but that you will not truly know until your ride under your own sense of balance. At which point, those training wheels need to come off or they become a hindrance to flow. As the Buddha said, "To insist upon a spiritual practice that served you in the past, is to carry the raft upon your back after you've already crossed the river".
It's my view that atheism, and what it was for me and what role it played was to break off the training wheels in order for me to ride freely. But atheism, like any screwdriver that helped you unloosen something, shouldn't become your tool for life. Now, I'm free to believe, or not believe, or whatever serves the end which is growth into a knowledge of the true Self, and through this Knowledge to love others as myself.
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