Why did God create mortal bodies?

[thomas t]

God has not saved anyone, as everyone is responsible to save themselves by their own actions. Someone is not saved just because they believed in Jesus, they are saved by faith and works. Belief alone never saved anyone.

Romans 10:10 makes it clear who will be saved. It's about salvation by faith. So I stay with my opinion.
If you can save yourself by mere actions, Jesus would have died in vain. Why bother to die on a cross, if there's no need to? Would you do it?
It's better to have faith in Jesus, I think here.

 

[thomas t]

Just so I understand you correctly. Let's say a mass murderer truly repent and acknowledge Jesus as their savior after being caught killing, raping, torturing, let's say 15 people. In that case Jesus/God does not care about, what they have done to these victims, and therefore they won't go to hell?

yes.

So now that person gets killed and doesn't have time to repent or accept Jesus as their savior,

but this comes with the territory of life on earth: you never know how long it's going to last.
It's better to convert today, I think. Who knows if you will be alive tomorrow.

I'm not saying that murdering people is a good thing, though.

Do you think that justice is being served in that setup? Or should we out of the blue, to avoid this injustice, add that God will save the victims as well?

Now if we add that exception to the rule, then clearly a person doesn't need to repent or acknowledge Jesus as their savior in order to not go to hell, which make your idea invalid, wouldn't you agree with that?

in my opinion, you can't circumvent Jesus for your personal salvation.

 

[Thief]

in my opinion, you can't circumvent Jesus for your personal salvation.

well....I'm not so sure about that

what?......a man of good spirit and intent
would fail before God and heaven?

for lack of a Name he has not heard

 

[Nimos]

but this comes with the territory of life on earth: you never know how long it's going to last.
It's better to convert today, I think. Who knows if you will be alive tomorrow.

I'm not saying that murdering people is a good thing, though.

No, I would not assume that you would think murdering is good.

But do you think the system is one that encourage people to value justice over injustice? Good over evil?

Because to be honest, it doesn't seem like there is any reason or benefit from doing good, which makes most of what Jesus and God said irrelevant, basically shoot first and repent later, seem to be the absolute best option here.

in my opinion, you can't circumvent Jesus for your personal salvation.

Well given how you have explained this setup, it's not to circumvent Jesus, it's basically just that being a murderer is considered far superior to that of being a victim, when it comes to being saved. Which according to you, Jesus and God seem to think is absolutely perfect.

I have to admit, reading the bible and knowing that God does some horrible things, I do still have to admit, that it was not the message I got from reading it.

 

[thomas t]

it's basically just that being a murderer is considered far superior to that of being a victim, when it comes to being saved.

if the murderer repents.

Jesus and God seem to think is absolutely perfect.

no it's not. But when forgivness comes into play... it's forgiven.
I mean the sin towards God.
If you do harm to some people... and then repent and ask for forgiveness from God... then you are forgiven by God... but maybe your victims didn't forgive you, as well.
So it's between you and the victims, still.

The Bible doesn't teach to shoot.

 

[Thief]

I mean the sin towards God.

a sin against the Spirit will not be forgiven

read that somewhere

hope it ain't true

 

[Nimos]

Romans 10:10 makes it clear who will be saved. It's about salvation by faith. So I stay with my opinion.
If you can save yourself by mere actions, Jesus would have died in vain. Why bother to die on a cross, if there's no need to? Would you do it?
It's better to have faith in Jesus, I think here.

That is not true, it totally depend on who you believe.

Paul say that it is through faith in Christ that you are saved.

But that is not what Jesus and God say.

Jesus
Matthew 7:21-23
21 - "Not everyone who keeps saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will get into the kingdom from heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.
22 - Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn't we?'
23 - Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who practice evil!'"

So according to Jesus, unless you follow the law or the will of God, you are not going to be saved. And he is basically going to reject you.

Mark 7:6-9
6 - And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
7 - in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 - You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”
9 - And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!

Matthew 19:16-19
16 - And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”
17 - And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 - He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 - Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

God
Isaiah 43:11
11 - I, yes I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

So at least Jesus and God seem to agree. Stick to the will of God and you will be saved.

 

[Nimos]

If you do harm to some people... and then repent and ask for forgiveness from God... then you are forgiven by God... but maybe your victims didn't forgive you, as well.
So it's between you and the victims, still.

But that makes no sense, because how are they going to forgive them?
If im not mistaken, there is suppose to be no evil or suffering in heaven, but how is that possible, if the murderer and his victims are all running around there and the victim can see how happy the murderer is?
The experience of being murdered and maybe not being able to see a loved one, because they didn't manage to repent in time, will cause suffering for the victim, but not only due to this, but also they might have been killed in an extremely horrible way. But if they simply can't remember this, because there can't be suffering in heaven. Then this life is completely pointless, because you won't be able to remember it anyway.

 

[CG Didymus]

But if God really wanted people to have free will, the promise or concept of something like heaven and hell would not exist!! It is contradictory to the idea of free will. Anything that promise, either good or bad things in an afterlife, whatever they might be, is a scam in my eyes in regards to free will.

If I told you something like this: "Trailblazer, if you worship the almighty Razle, God of purity, in this life and do his biddings. Then he will take care of all your cats in the afterlife and you will get to see them all again. But if you don't... dear lord are they going to suffer horrible. But don't worry Razle gave you free will, to choose to love him as long as you do his biddings."

Atheists are not against God as if he is not allowed to exist, simply that the evidence doesn't seem to point in that direction. I think it is much more likely that you will find that atheists in general are against religions and their teachings.

In order to talk about free will in the sense that it is given to us by a God as something good. Then you can't have said God influencing your free will choices. That is what I tried to explain with the example.

Imagine im God... (My favorite role )

"Trailblazer I have given you free will as a gift... with this you can freely choose between X or Y, that is how good I am... however if you should choose X, Im going to punish you for eternity."

Talking about free will as if it is something good in a scenario like this is absurd... You are not given a fair choice that allow you to use your free will. Im giving you an ultimatum, that either you choose Y or i will make you suffer.

I live my life in such way as if we had free will with limitations. But whether we have true free will or not, I don't know. But we certainly have the illusion of it.

If God wanted humans to have free will as a good thing, there would be no reward or punishment in the afterlife. If God wanted people to only do the right things, he would interfere in our lives the moment we chose a wrong decision, so we could learn from it. Free will have no meaning in a setup where you are manipulated to choose one thing over another with no way of learning from it.

Nimos, I like everything you've been saying. Here's my observations and thoughts about free will.

Christianity is way different than the Baha'i Faith. The "Born-again" Christians say that the road is broad that leads to destruction, that sinners will be tormented in hell, idolaters, fornicators and such will not enter into heaven. Yes, there is a choice. The smart choice, accept Jesus and go to heaven or the wrong choice live for yourself, do what you want, which means that the person will be doing evil.

Christians do have God intervening...Through the Holy Spirit or whatever. He speaks to their heart, "No, this is wrong. Remember, I said Thou shalt not do this kind of stuff." Problem is, some of that stuff that Christians aren't supposed to do is fun stuff. It not all cut and dry totally evil stuff... except if it's sexual things then Christians make them horrible and evil and twisted. And what usually happens? Most Christians end up living their lives and doing things that most all other people do. They're not all the different and Holy.

That's where I think Baha'is end up being the same too. The "right" choice is to do exactly as their God said to do... don't live for yourself, live to help, love and serve others. Who does that? Maybe once in a while, but all the time? The happiest Christians and Baha'is that I've seen are the ones that live to do "God's will" and serve others. But how many do that? Some of them go off to other countries and help make things better for people in need. Unfortunately, some "serve" their God by "teaching"... or which, no matter how they try and be nice about it, becomes very close to be doing that other thing "proselytizing".

Who needs that? The "teacher" tells people about how their religion can save them or make things better for them and the world. They are forcing us to make a choice. "Do you feel lost? Do you know where you will go after you die? Do you know God loves you and wants to give you eternal life?" What's a person going to say? "No"? Yes, they do most people say "no". Because they've been there. Or they've just had a similar confrontation with a person from another religious group that told them almost the same thing, but just with a slight difference... "Those others guys are full of it. We have the real deal."

Free will? Free will to follow God or not follow God? Too many choices. And they all kind of work, but not perfectly. Depends on how much a person "chooses" to commit to believing and doing the things the religion requires of them. "Yes God will save you." Then in the fine print it says... "But you will hereby totally give your life to God and obey everything he says. If you don't... God will torment you and give you guilt trips or, if you're real bad, he can and will make this contract null and void and send you straight to hell". What kind of choice is that? "Yeah, no pressure. You can have fun and do as you please here on Earth for a few years, then spend eternity in torment... Or, you can joyfully live your life living for God here on Earth and live with God for eternity in heaven after you die." In the fine print... "Believer should be aware that by following God doesn't mean things will be easy. Expect to be tested and to experience a great amount of pain and suffering like everybody else. But always know that God loves you."

Baha'is aren't as bad as Christians... they have no hell or Satan to threaten people with. But, they still expect their people to obey and follow everything that Baha'u'llah tells them them should do. Pray, fast, give money, teach others, live the life. The last one is always the tough one. Who lives the "life" in any religion? There might be more in some of the Eastern religions, but it's tough to obey everything in the Abrahamic religions... too strict, too many laws, too many ways to make the wrong choices. And those wrong choices have a cost. They are not "free".

 

[Nimos]

Baha'is aren't as bad as Christians... they have no hell or Satan to threaten people with.

I agree with what you are saying.

However there is no difference between the idea of hell and that of heaven, in regards to how manipulative it is.

There are basically two way I can manipulate you...

"Didymus if you don't do X I will punish you for eternity" - obviously no one would like that, so if I can convince you that it is true, you might do certain things because you fear the punishment.

But its not really any different, than me telling you: "Didymus if you do X you will be happy for all eternity." people want to be happy, and imagine being that for eternity.

Both are simply ways to promise someone something for which there is no evidence and no guarantee and through that false promise you can manipulate some people. Just look at how many people have been fooled by false Covid vaccines, which follows the exact same idea. You promise people something and give them hope, security etc. and X amount will buy into it and believe it. And in this case, it's not only manipulative, it's dangerous, because people might think that they are now immune to the virus and therefore stop being careful.

So when I hear religious people use the argument of God having given us free will, but at the same time talk about heaven and hell, or God favoring one choice over another, then free will makes no sense. It's obvious that it can't be truly free, if people either run around constantly afraid of going to hell or whatever, or them being afraid of missing out on heaven.-

Both are equally manipulative and wrong, in my eyes.

 

[Kenny]

The Baha'i viewpoint is that it was nobody's fault that we are mortal, that is just how God created us;

then your position is understandable.

 

[CG Didymus]

How can they build bridges if they believe they are superior?

That's why I think the Baha'is have to be the ones to build the bridges.

I try to find what the religions share in common, the eternal spiritual truths, not how we differ.

Yes, that's what you should do.

But that does not mean I will not disagree if our beliefs differ,

The problem is when and how you disagree. Have you built a relationship of trust and respect with them? Sorry to say, I don't think so. With some people yes, but with others no. Often, to me, it seems like the Baha'is are also sounding like they are superior. "We have found the truth for today. Your religion has seen its spring and is now in its winter." Tough to do... to always be kind and respectful and to understand where the other person is coming from.

My complaints about the Baha'is are different from your complaints. I think that many Baha'is lack compassion because they have this idea that suffering is a badge of honor and that makes them arrogant because they believe they are wearing the badge. However, I highly doubt those who wear the badge have suffered as much as I have all my life, so there is no way they can ever understand how I feel.

All people suffer, but what bothers me is that God would add to it. If I were an uncompassionate Baha'i I'd tell you "God is testing you. He wants you to let go of your attachments to this world and fix your gaze on nothing else but him." What is cruel is... that attachment is your cats. It's almost as bad as that, hopefully fictitious, story about God wanting Abraham to sacrifice his only son. Who in real life would do that? Who would really believe that a loving God would even ask that? But here we are. You are a Baha'i. You are supposed to totally trust in God and detach yourself from all your worldly desires. Do you think this God is actually asking you to do this?

I chose the world. I walked away from both Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. Because, I knew at some point my life would be tested. Would I totally surrender to God, even if he asked me to go off to some strange land. I knew Christians and Baha'is that did do this. Would I? One Baha'i left his wife to go to some South Seas Island. You probably know the NT story about Jesus telling some guy to give away everything and follow him. The guy walked away. That's what I'd do. But you're a Baha'i. How can you walk away? How can you not trust that God will reward you with peace and joy in your heart for putting your trust totally in him?

Now, why I don't trust him. Because every religion says something different. Every religion defines God differently. I don't trust what people are saying and believing about God... not even if the person says he is a "manifestation" of God. I know people that did commit totally to their religion. But the religion ended up being a cult. I don't believe or trust any idea or concept of a God. I'll listen and then evaluate. I'll watch and see how the believers actually live their lives and how far they are willing to commit to their God. So what are you going to do? Keep hating God or detach yourself from all your worldly desires and trust God. I hope you choose God. I'd like to see how it turns out. If bad, I'll keep hating God. If good, I'll think... TB did it, maybe I should let go and trust him too. But then, what's worse... what if there's just a bigger test after that? Good %&^*ing luck TB.

 

[thomas t]

Paul say that it is through faith in Christ that you are saved.

This was what I was saying (passage highlighted in green color).

But that is not what Jesus and God say.

Jesus
Matthew 7:21-23
21 - "Not everyone who keeps saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will get into the kingdom from heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.
22 - Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn't we?'
23 - Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who practice evil!'"

So according to Jesus, unless you follow the law or the will of God, you are not going to be saved. And he is basically going to reject you.

Jesus and God in no way contradict what Paul said above.
Don't mix up saying "Lord, Lord" and Romans 10:10. Romans 10:10 is about faith in Jesus. The latter is a step further than the former, in my opinion.

If im not mistaken, there is suppose to be no evil or suffering in heaven, but how is that possible, if the murderer and his victims are all running around there and the victim can see how happy the murderer is?

well, good question. If the murderer regretted on earth, this is something.
Salvation is not about what makes sense to us, but what makes sense to Jesus.
He is going to decide.
So lets consider there is someone who murdered another person on earth. Then he repented and came to heaven.
The victim also repented of their sins and came to heaven, too.
But he didn't forgive.
Then, I suppose, the two will have to reach an agreement like in Matthew 5:24.
This is just my personal hypothesis. I suppose they will meet, discuss the issue and reach an agreement.
I also suppose that only those folks will enter heaven who are somehow cooperative in nature when it comes to solving conflicts. No unsolved conflicts in heaven, it seems to me.

 

[Nimos]

I have to say that you have the most unique view of heaven, good and evil, justice and injustice that I have ever seen

So lets consider there is someone who murdered another person on earth. Then he repented and came to heaven.
The victim also repented of their sins and came to heaven, too.

Assuming that the victim didn't have time to repent before they got murdered. You have absolutely no issues with that?
Meaning the murderer kills the victim, gets arrested and put in jail for life, giving them all the time they need to repent. While the victim, which might be completely innocent, didn't get any time to repent or accept Jesus, so they get thrown to hell, while the psychopathic murderer gets to go to heaven?

What if it was a child? And the parents go to heaven and meet the murderer... while knowing that their child is in hell, because of that person, well basically because of how God/Jesus made the rules, but anyway, do you honestly believe that the parents would ever forgive such person? And if they don't really feel like "solving" their conflict with the murderer, then God would throw them in hell as well, i guess? Or would God force them to accept the murderer? How do you make this work? it makes absolutely no sense at all

It seems no matter what, the murderer is the absolute winner here. They got to "satisfy" their need for killing in the physical world, they then repent and get saved. To then having the victim or all the people that knew the victim to come to an agreement with them and if they don't, they will be gotten rid off and the murderer doesn't have to be concerned about them anymore.... it is such a weird understanding of justice and the concept of good, that im pretty much speechless

Is that a common understanding of justice and what it means to be good within Christianity? Because that is completely new to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

How did the messengers get answers from god and are you worthy of getting the answers they have received themselves?

I do not know how the Messengers get communication for God, only they know that.
Whatever answers there are to get I get from the Messengers.

Here are some answers I come across when people say their prayers were answered. Synchronicity. They have a keen way of finding connections that help them that would ideally not have happened if not, in their explanation, for god. So, if someone almost gets hit by a car, comes home and without them knowing, a loved one who hasn't talked to them in years ask them how they were doing today cause they got "this feeling", that other person interprets it from god. It's not a direct "here I am Trailer" but something (which I'm sure you already have done) you just put the pieces together and decide that's god.

People can BELIEVE that's God but they cannot KNOW.

I'm not quite sure how Bahai faith goes about it. Even jesus christ, I'm not sure how he can answer prayers but I understand the god part given the connection and language people use to describe their religion both in other religions on RF and talking with christians. Which I don't do as often as I used to.

People can BELIEVE that God answered prayers but they cannot KNOW.

I'm just throwing out ideas here. I don't think the messangers will just appear out of nowhere and tap you on the shoulder to say "I am a manifestation of god.... here's his blessing" type of thing. It's more taking your everyday experiences, confirming them in bahai scripture, and using those experiences-no matter how mundain they seem-as resources for your life.

There are no Manifestations of God that are going to do that but Baha'u'llah declared that in His Writings, so we either choose to believe that or not. I believe it. Now the challenge is to believe everything He wrote about God.

But, anyway. If god doesn't communicate directly, do the messangers?

How do they communicate to people if they do?

Jesus communicated to people through the writers of the New Testament...
Muhammad communicated to people through the writers of the Qur'an...
Baha'u'llah communicated directly to people in His own Pen: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

 

[Trailblazer]

The New World Order is evil. You should read their playbook.

The New World Order as depicted by some people might sound evil, but the New World Order as depicted by Baha'u'llah sounds pretty good to me...

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

 

[Trailblazer]

Christianity is the biggest, so if we assume that it is the correct one:
Christians form the biggest religious group by some margin, with 2.3 billion adherents or 31.2% of the total world population of 7.3 billion.

It would mean that 68.8% of the world live on a lie.

Which is untenable if there is a just and loving God, so hopefully you can take it from there.

 

[Trailblazer]

then your position is understandable.

Thanks for understanding.

 

[Trailblazer]

Romans 10:10 makes it clear who will be saved. It's about salvation by faith. So I stay with my opinion.

There is more to the Bible than one verse. I would not bet my eternal life on one verse. That is called cherry picking.

If you can save yourself by mere actions, Jesus would have died in vain. Why bother to die on a cross, if there's no need to? Would you do it?
It's better to have faith in Jesus, I think here.

I do not believe that the cross sacrifice was superfluous.

I do have faith in Jesus. The following quote explains how it was the Word of God as well as the cross sacrifice that freed us from the chains of bondage. Christ gave us His teachings (profusion of His bounties) and then later died on the cross (suffered the greatest martyrdom) so we could be free of sin and attain everlasting life.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125

 

[Hockeycowboy]

. What makes me angry at God is that God created this world the way it is and mortal beings that will die.

You think so?

Remember the Lord's Prayer in the Bible? Jesus taught his followers to pray, “Let thy Kingdom come, let Thy will be done on Earth.”
If we are to pray for God’s will to be done, that means God’s will is not happening now. But it will in the future, once those issues / challenges that were raised in the Garden (that I spoke to you about a few days back) are settled.

Revelation 21:3-4 is the fulfillment of the prayer, “Thy will be done on Earth”....


Verses 3 & 4 says, “The Tent of God is with mankind.....and death will be no more.”
See also Psalms 115:16.

You mentioned to another poster, indicating overpopulation of the Earth....you bring up a thoughtful issue, but the Bible does provide a solution. It says in Isaiah 35: “the desert will blossom as the saffron,” and “in the wilderness, waters will burst forth.”
In Psalms 72:16, it says ‘on the top of mountains there will be abundant food.’ That’s a lot of land!

So what is currently uninhabitable, will become habitable, with Jehovah’s blessing....with His “tent” over us. (Once those issues of sovereignty and such are resolved.)

Isaiah 54:13 states something fascinating (to me, anyways)! “All your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah..... “ Imagine what areas of technology we could be guided in, from God Himself!
Nothing would harm us. We would be informed about harmful technologies ahead of time, and avoid them.

Who knows, we could even learn to build safe cities under the oceans!

But you’re right....eventually, the Earth would become overpopulated, if humans continued to procreate. And children are such a huge part of us, that I doubt Jehovah would cause us to stop procreating, completely.

That’s why I think, far in the future, and by then having the know-how, we will expand human civilization to other planets, with Jehovah’s guidance and support.

Stay safe, my cousin.