why did God kill many people?

[Autodidact]

One version of god perhaps...

A rather popular version.

And some see god in the OT as a character who is in the process of growing and learning... as much as anyone else. If god can improve with time surely humanity can grow up too?

I don't think many Christians see Him this way. Rather He is eternal and, of course, perfect.

How does a hypothetical situation based on a metaphorical story ... one that ends with god pledging to be more merciful... make your point?

It's not hypoethetical, it's the story. I think it's widely seen as fictional (though by no means universal) but not necessarily metaphorical. Rather it is supposed to convey an understanding of God's nature. God's nature, as depicted in the story--in the book written to glorify Him, the one we're supposed to pay attention to, is vengeful and genocidal. That's the God that millions of people believe in a worship. And that is dangerous, very dangerous. Thus it is no accident that His believers have themselves, in turn, murdered millions of people. eta: Or not, depending on what that pesky 6th commandment means. Maybe they just killed them, and it was permissible, so not murder, and therefore not a violation of the commandment.

You should know better than to paint all christians... or all people who believe in the OT with such a broad brush.

Just referring to those that do.

Let alone all people who believe in "god".

Well, this God--the only we're talking about here, Yahweh.

 

[painted wolf]

O.K., let's look at it as literature or metaphor. What is the point of the story? It seems glaringly obvious that the point is DO AS GOD SAYS OR HE WILL SMITE YOU AND A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE TOO!

How about... god makes mistakes to... he is a young god.. full of insecurities and he lashes out. But he realizes that what he has done is a terrible terrible thing so he apologizes and pledges to never ever do anything like that again.
Not bad for a ancient Middle Eastern deity... this is the most merciful and humane god to have appeared in the area.

How about... have faith in god in spite of mockery.

wa:do

 

[Kilgore Trout]

wow.
The mental gymnastics in this thread rivals the Olympics!!

Hey, that sounds like of those "compliment that's really an insult" thingies.

 

[painted wolf]

I'm talking about the idea that some stories really happened, and others did not, but are simply metaphors. Really, you didn't get this?

where do you draw the line... many stories are based, in part, on fact.
Thus it is a false dichotomy.... most stories sort of happened and got turned into learning experiences.

wa:do

 

[Kilgore Trout]

where do you draw the line... many stories are based, in part, on fact.
Thus it is a false dichotomy.... most stories sort of happened and got turned into learning experiences.

wa:do

Yes, where do you draw the line? Which ones are taken as fact, and which ones are taken as based, in part, on fact?

Did god actually cause a flood that nearly destroyed all life on earth? If not, what exactly do we get from this learning experience?

 

[Autodidact]

How about... god makes mistakes to... he is a young god.. full of insecurities and he lashes out. But he realizes that what he has done is a terrible terrible thing so he apologizes and pledges to never ever do anything like that again.
Not bad for a ancient Middle Eastern deity... this is the most merciful and humane god to have appeared in the area.

How about... have faith in god in spite of mockery.

wa:do

I doubt that there's a Christian here who interprets the story that way, and remember, it's the Christians (and a few Jews) that we're concerned about.

What makes the story dangerous, painted, is exactly the concept that God is perfect and eternal. God is perfect. God commits genocide. Therefore, genocide is good.

Remember: Jesus is God. What Would Jesus Do? Smite everyone on the planet, that's what.

 

[painted wolf]

A rather popular version.

So what?
Appeals to popularity are not exactly valid

I don't think many Christians see Him this way. Rather He is eternal and, of course, perfect.

Because all believers in the OT are Christians. :sarcastic

It's not hypoethetical, it's the story. I think it's widely seen as fictional (though by no means universal) but not necessarily metaphorical. Rather it is supposed to convey an understanding of God's nature. God's nature, as depicted in the story--in the book written to glorify Him, the one we're supposed to pay attention to, is vengeful and genocidal. That's the God that millions of people believe in a worship. And that is dangerous, very dangerous. Thus it is no accident that His believers have themselves, in turn, murdered millions of people.

Humanity murders millions of people... regardless of faith or lack there of. That is the sick prospect of human nature and you can't pin it on faith.

Well, this God--the only we're talking about here, Yahweh.

I suggest you look into what modern Jews think then....

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

I doubt that there's a Christian here who interprets the story that way, and remember, it's the Christians (and a few Jews) that we're concerned about.

I did as a Christian... I'm sure you will find more...
And it's nice that you include a few Jews...

wa:do

 

[Autodidact]

To find out how Christians view this story, just Google anything like, "Why did God flood the earth?" and lots of helpful Christian websites will tell you exactly why. Here's Answers in Genesis:

These verses speak for themselves. Every human being on the face of the earth had turned after the wickedness in their own hearts, but Noah, because of his righteousness before God, was spared from God’s judgment, along with his wife, their sons, and their wives. As a result of man’s wickedness, God sent judgment on all mankind. As harsh as the destruction was, no living person was without excuse.
God also used the Flood to separate and to purify those who believed in Him from those who didn’t. Throughout history and throughout the Bible, this cycle has taken place time after time: separation, purification, judgment, and redemption.
Without God and without a true knowledge and understanding of Scripture, which provides the true history of the world, man is doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

I'd say that's the popular understanding of the issue.

 

[Autodidact]

So what?
Appeals to popularity are not exactly valid

I'm not trying to show that it's true! Only that it matters. It matters because it's popular. That is, millions of people believe this. That matter.

Because all believers in the OT are Christians. :sarcastic

And a few Jews.

Humanity murders millions of people... regardless of faith or lack there of. That is the sick prospect of human nature and you can't pin it on faith.

It sure as heck doesn't help.

I suggest you look into what modern Jews think then....

Not hard--I am one. I can tell you that as a child I was taught exactly, precisely, and with no doubt that God killed everyone because they were wicked, and that we should always do what God says, or He will get angry. And mind you, that was a liberal Jewish upbringing!

 

[Autodidact]

And painted, that's not even going into the millions of people who believe this actually happened! Many of whom are to be found right here at RF. Why, I'm trying to persuade a few of them otherwise right now in the Noah's Ark thread.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Not hard--I am one. I can tell you that as a child I was taught exactly, precisely, and with no doubt that God killed everyone because they were wicked, and that we should always do what God says, or He will get angry. And mind you, that was a liberal Jewish upbringing!

I was taught the same thing in Sunday School - not that the flood story was a metaphor, but an actual historical event.

 

[painted wolf]

Seriously you're using AIG as a measuring stick of rational Christianity? LOL

And a few Jews.

And Muslims... and gnostics... Coptics....

It sure as heck doesn't help.

Nothing does... not the most peaceful philosophies you can think of.

Not hard--I am one. I can tell you that as a child I was taught exactly, precisely, and with no doubt that God killed everyone because they were wicked, and that we should always do what God says, or He will get angry. And mind you, that was a liberal Jewish upbringing!

I got my interpretation mostly from liberal Jewish theology as well... it is an amazingly varied and lively source of theological thought isn't it.

wa:do

 

[gzusfrk]

I doubt that there's a Christian here who interprets the story that way, and remember, it's the Christians (and a few Jews) that we're concerned about.

What makes the story dangerous, painted, is exactly the concept that God is perfect and eternal. God is perfect. God commits genocide. Therefore, genocide is good.

Remember: Jesus is God. What Would Jesus Do? Smite everyone on the planet, that's what.

And now that doubt is gone.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The commandment not to murder is completely unhelpful.

Well, that's the topic of the OP.

Murder means "unlawful killing." So you get, "Don't commit any unlawful killing." Hey, I thought the point of commandments was to tell what the law is? How do you tell whether a given killing is unlawful or not?

As I mentioned before, there are several commandments to kill in the OT, as we all know... from cursing one's parents to destroying cities. I don't think that there's proof that any of these commands were actually followed.

 

[Autodidact]

Seriously you're using AIG as a measuring stick of rational Christianity? LOL

Not rational Christianity (oxymoron) actual Christianity. That's the one I'm worried about.

And Muslims... and gnostics... Coptics....

Coptics are Christians. Muslims have their own problems, don't they? Ever read their holy book? Smokin'!

Nothing does... not the most peaceful philosophies you can think of.

I couldn't disagree more. What people believe matters. It determines their actions. Peaceful philosophies contribute greatly to peaceful actions.

I got my interpretation mostly from liberal Jewish theology as well... it is an amazingly varied and lively source of theological thought isn't it.

Yes, a lot of it is great. However, most of what's great doesn't come from the Bible, and vice versa.

 

[Autodidact]

Well, that's the topic of the OP.

O.K., great, I'm on topic. And what I have to say about the topic is that it's a very unhelpful commandment. It tells you nothing.

As I mentioned before, there are several commandments to kill in the OT, as we all know... from cursing one's parents to destroying cities. I don't think that there's proof that any of these commands were actually followed.

That is so not the point. Look, people, millions of modern people spend hours studying this book to learn how to live and what their God expects of them. One of the more important things you might want to find out is what killing is acceptable, and what is not. And the book is silent on the issue. Or rather, it tells us to kill people who pick up sticks on Saturday (how weird is that?) but not when NOT to kill. Which would be helpful to know.

So you have people who say abortion is prohibited, people who are opposed to war, people against capital punishment, people who say to kill all the Jews, and people who say each of these things is permitted, all getting their guidance from the same source! Not a very helpful commandment, that.

 

[painted wolf]

Not rational Christianity (oxymoron) actual Christianity. That's the one I'm worried about.

I think you'll find that AIG is not all that representative on a global scale of Christiandom.

I couldn't disagree more. What people believe matters. It determines their actions. Peaceful philosophies contribute greatly to peaceful actions.

And yet every corner of the globe with humanity has terrible violence. Otherwise Nepal should be the most peaceful place around.

Yes, a lot of it is great. However, most of what's great doesn't come from the Bible, and vice versa.

I should hope not... as the Bible isn't a Jewish work.
But even among Christians there is a very wide theological interpretive structure.

wa:do

 

[angellous_evangellous]

! Not a very helpful commandment, that.

haha

It's only unhelpful when people don't recognize the difference between murder and other types of killing.

As I said before, there are many types of killing - both in the ancient world and today - that are not murder.

The unhelpful thing in this case is the translation "thou shalt not kill," when it is plainly "thou shalt not murder."

 

[Autodidact]

I think you'll find that AIG is not all that representative on a global scale of Christiandom.

I just chose one quick one. Go ahead, Google it, see what you find. I doubt that you'll find many saying hey, Yahweh was still a kid, he learned better.

I should hope not... as the Bible isn't a Jewish work.
But even among Christians there is a very wide theological interpretive structure.

wa:do

Well, to be more precise, the Tanakh. Lots of smart stuff from the rabbis, lots of horrible stuff in the Torah. And, as I was saying to Angellous, lots of useless stuff.