dogsgod
Well-Known Member
It's not murder when you kill in the name of God. Cool.
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why did God kill many people?
- Thread starter Luke
- Start date
It's not murder when you kill in the name of God. Cool.
Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
I don't remember reading that clause in the agreement... Otherwise wouldn't it say, "Don't murder until I say when - and use my name so you don't get caught!"
Just says, "You shall not murder." Honestly, it sounds more like a suggestion than a command.... but in any case, I don't know how we can really claim that God murdered thousands unless we also believe that any kind of killing is murdering.
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OmarKhayyam
Well-Known Member
I got that you're talking about literalism and non-literalism. That's no excuse to misrepresent the metaphor.
/me pets the poor little metaphor.
The more proper distinction to be made is that some stories are to be taken literally (is meaningful in the narrative) and some non-literally (the narrative is there to express other meaning). Both can be real, both can really have happened; the metaphor is not exclusive of the literal story, in the same way science is not exclusive of the supernatural. (Possibly precisely the same way.)
Male bovine feces - cubed.
"Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven."
I don't believe there will be much rain in hell.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
No, no, no, you're missing the key point. If God tells you to do it, then it's not murder; it's just killing, which is permitted. "Murder," means unlawful killing. If God tells you to do it, then you're complying with God's law. So as soon as you persuade us that God told you to, then it's not murder at all. Nifty, don't you agree?
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
What percent of 'Bible believers' murder in the name of God? how many stoning have any of us witnessed lately in the frame of Judeo-Christian society?
I cant help but get the feeling we are chasing ghosts here
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
What percent of 'Bible believers' murder in the name of God? how many stoning have any of us witnessed lately in the frame of Judeo-Christian society?
I cant help but get the feeling we are chasing ghosts here
Fortunately, since we do not have a theocracy, Christians are no longer able to get away with killing people in the name of God, so the numbers are greatly reduced. (although I believe there was one in the news recently.) When we did have a Christian theocracy in Europe, there were millions of such killings, and they were a regular feature of public life.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
What period of history are we talking about?
Judeo-Christian society has shed much skin. while I agree there are much reforms to be made, the issues are now on the table of social debate.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
I believe we had theocracy in Europe from something like the 6th to 17th centuries--does that sound about right to you? During that time Christian mobs raged across Europe, slaughtering Jews, Muslims and other Christians, in the crusades; the church/state executed hundreds of thousands of "witches," and hundreds of thousands of Jews and others accused of heresy, all in the name of God, and all inspired by their belief in the Bible.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
I think history is a bit more complicated than that... there were strong turf battles between the state and the church going on.
Each seeking to gain political control of the other. To say it was a theocracy is a little naive.
wa:do
Each seeking to gain political control of the other. To say it was a theocracy is a little naive.
wa:do
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
There have been many social changes in 'Christendom' and the world at large in the last couple of centuries and dramatically more in the last century in our eyes.
Yes, there has been much suffering, but can we paint today's Christian world as the one of dark eras?
I think its more complicated than that. can we single out Christianity as the sole motivator for such atrocities? the religious passions behind much of the atrocities could have been one aspect of a more complex social reality. modern history has more than enough examples of genocide and strife in societies in which Christianity is not a factor.
I'm not downplaying the dark history of Christianity as it came to be a state religion, its simply that I believe that history has many layers.
can we point the finger at one point in history and say, 'if this religion would not be what society adhered to, history would have resulted in an outburst of enlightenment leaving all its negative baggage behind'?
Arthur C. Clarke thought so, and it might be a source for interesting alt history ideas.
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Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Let's remember what I was responding to. I wasn't arguing that Christianity is the only reason that Christians slaughtered people by the hundreds and thousands. I was responding to Caladan's question as to whether Christians have a tendency to kill people if they think their Bible recommends it. And the answer is yes, when the state lets them, they do so heartily and in great numbers. I hope you don't want gory details about Crusaders' horses up to their withers in blood, medieval torture devices, and numbers of innocents burned at the stake. Let's just all agree that it was a lot and let it go at that.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Europe was a pretty bloodthirsty place to start with... I don't think the Christian Europeans were any more bloodthirsty than the pagan Europeans they replaced. Just more organized.
Humans will take any excuse they can to start on a slaughter fest.
wa:do
Humans will take any excuse they can to start on a slaughter fest.
wa:do
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
So you don't think it makes much difference what people believe?
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Thats just it. the Christian society of today is much more diverse in its voiced opinions, agendas and philosophies. people of Christian background today, at least in the developed world hardly demonstrate the kind of atrocious actions that history attributes to the crusaders.
the episode of the crusaders in the holy land has ended at the last part of the 13th century, the last cases of witch trials in European Christian society were 200 years ago. we cant deny that Christianity was forced to progress, especially in the face of intellectual and scientific progress of the recent eras.
Do I think we are experiencing an ideal state of the religious aspects of society?
no.
but I wont hold my breath to see such an era. we are still debating many issues which involve religion, but at least today these issues are opened for debate and challenge.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Not really... humanity takes whatever excuse it can. Any ideology can step in and take religions place. We fight anyone that can be labeled as "other"... always have, always will.
wa:do
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
And another important change is that Christians are no longer permitted, let alone encouraged, to kill people like this. Christianity was forced to progress by the forces of secularism. Left to its own devices, you get mass murder. It's only when we separate Church and state and enforce secular law that Christian killings (not murder according to the Bible?) get under control. You do see the occasional breakout, though.
OmarKhayyam
Well-Known Member
The apologists for religion have no shame.
Yet try as they may they cannot deny this simple fact. If you do not believe in a god you will not be willing to kill in its name.
Religious faith may well have not been the only factor at work in creating the Dark Ages but is most certainly a necessary one. Absent the belief in "god" the most unconscionable acts of the age would not have occurred. It may well still have been a period of turmoil and war. But there would be no witches burned or heretics racked or heathens beheaded. Nor would science have been held hostage to superstition.
Where might we be today if instead of trying to determine how many angels could dance on the head of a pin they had spent the the same mental effort in understanding why a pin can be bent but not compressed?:sad4:
Yet try as they may they cannot deny this simple fact. If you do not believe in a god you will not be willing to kill in its name.
Religious faith may well have not been the only factor at work in creating the Dark Ages but is most certainly a necessary one. Absent the belief in "god" the most unconscionable acts of the age would not have occurred. It may well still have been a period of turmoil and war. But there would be no witches burned or heretics racked or heathens beheaded. Nor would science have been held hostage to superstition.
Where might we be today if instead of trying to determine how many angels could dance on the head of a pin they had spent the the same mental effort in understanding why a pin can be bent but not compressed?:sad4: