why did God kill many people?

[painted wolf]

Religion is like any other institution, it's as good or bad as the people running it.

If you've ever been a member of any church, that should be obvious.

Which is why it's everyone's duty to keep an eye on their leaders. No matter who they are.

wa:do

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"Nice ad hom."

Thanks. I liked it also.

As for the actual argument which you deliberately twisted - belief in a god is a necessary but not sufficient pre-condition for religious terrorism.

Religious belief is NOT - say again NOT - the sole cause of evil in the world. But it IS unquestionably the sole cause of RELIGIOUS evil. And history, particularly the "Dark Ages" are filled with it. And 90% comes from 2 religious traditions.

And there is no reason whatever to doubt that the devout and firm believers among us today would do much the same had they chance. As evidence I point to the fact that where they HAVE had the chance by virtue of majority vote or superiour force they have INDEED imposed their theology. And would leave no doubt that is what they are doing. Nor do they make any secret of that being their intent. As e.g. Pat Robertson reminds his followers daily. As does Ralph Reed, as does OBL, as does Ann Coulter as does . . . will you get the idea. (I hope).

 

[Alla Prima]

in Gods commandments it says Thou Shalt Not Kill. then why in historie has God destroyed cities and killed many people. if God create humankind i n his image and if God is love then why does he kill people.

I believe man created 'God' so he could oppress his follow man and gain power over him. What is more tyrannical than claiming a 'God' for all mankind then endowing him with power to destroy everything and send non believers to Hell. What a scam.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"What a scam."

Indeed.

But a wildly successful one. Until about 1870 the HRCC was the richest private institution is history. And they got that way while proclaiming "sell all thou hasts, give to the poor and take up thy cross and follow me."

Gotta hand it to em. They make it work.

 

[Caladan]

As for the actual argument which you deliberately twisted - belief in a god is a necessary but not sufficient pre-condition for religious terrorism.

I took it a step further than that.

Religious belief is NOT - say again NOT - the sole cause of evil in the world. But it IS unquestionably the sole cause of RELIGIOUS evil. And history, particularly the "Dark Ages" are filled with it. And 90% comes from 2 religious traditions.

To me and other members this idea/agenda is insufficient. religion is part of a culture and society, it grows out of a society and its part of the social structure of the society. it is one element in a wider experience. given, it can be an intense element, but it needs to meet the right conditions for it to become such. for example, locations which suffer from poverty are more likely to foster religious passions (not that black and white). therefore, many times its meaningless to make a distinction of 'religious evil', because that 'evil' is a result of many catalysts, perhaps poverty, strife over resources, demographic unrest, regional unrest, ethnic tensions, etc.
in all these, religion is one element of a reality. and making a separation into 'religious evil' begins to lose its meaning in the face of many other realities which are sewed together with religion.

And there is no reason whatever to doubt that the devout and firm believers among us today would do much the same had they chance. As evidence I point to the fact that where they HAVE had the chance by virtue of majority vote or superiour force they have INDEED imposed their theology. And would leave no doubt that is what they are doing. Nor do they make any secret of that being their intent. As e.g. Pat Robertson reminds his followers daily. As does Ralph Reed, as does OBL, as does Ann Coulter as does . . . will you get the idea. (I hope).

Sure, I agree with that to a point. secularization is the way to go as far as im concerned.
however, I don't trust that if given the chance, most of the religious public will be up in arms, stoning adulteresses and slaughtering Jewish neighborhoods.

 

[vitriol]

I believe man created 'God' so he could oppress his follow man and gain power over him. What is more tyrannical than claiming a 'God' for all mankind then endowing him with power to destroy everything and send non believers to Hell. What a scam.

God is mistaken with divinity,the essence of life,religion is mistaken with spirituality.
Divinity never killed any man,man kills man.Man has butchered his own like no other species that has ever walk or crowl on the surface of this planet.All in the name of a look-a-like god that makes no sense at all.

 

[painted wolf]

I believe man created 'God' so he could oppress his follow man and gain power over him. What is more tyrannical than claiming a 'God' for all mankind then endowing him with power to destroy everything and send non believers to Hell. What a scam.

well... seeing as spiritual/ritual behavior predates humanity by a good several tens of thousands of years... I doubt that was the first reason.

Seeing as most early religions don't have heaven/hell concepts there is another strike against your idea.

I'm afraid the advent of religion in the human species is a bit more complicated than you think.

wa:do

 

[Autodidact]

I took it a step further than that.


To me and other members this idea/agenda is insufficient. religion is part of a culture and society, it grows out of a society and its part of the social structure of the society. it is one element in a wider experience. given, it can be an intense element, but it needs to meet the right conditions for it to become such. for example, locations which suffer from poverty are more likely to foster religious passions (not that black and white). therefore, many times its meaningless to make a distinction of 'religious evil', because that 'evil' is a result of many catalysts, perhaps poverty, strife over resources, demographic unrest, regional unrest, ethnic tensions, etc.
in all these, religion is one element of a reality. and making a separation into 'religious evil' begins to lose its meaning in the face of many other realities which are sewed together with religion.


Sure, I agree with that to a point. secularization is the way to go as far as im concerned.
however, I don't trust that if given the chance, most of the religious public will be up in arms, stoning adulteresses and slaughtering Jewish neighborhoods.

I think the key factor is the relationship between the Church and State. It seems to me that when religious leaders are empowered to govern, and granted some measure of state endorsement and power, they become violent, internally, externally, or both. In a secular system, in which their power is limited by the state, this tendency is inhibited.

 

[Autodidact]

well... seeing as spiritual/ritual behavior predates humanity by a good several tens of thousands of years... I doubt that was the first reason.

Please expound on this.

 

[painted wolf]

Neanderthals finds have shown strong ritualistic/spiritual behavior... from burial practice to deliberate arrangement of animal bones in ways mirroring human animistic practice.

This indicates that the "wireing" for such behavior dates to our last shared common ancestor.
Indeed a close group to our shared ancestor is known to have begun keeping elderly, non-reproductive members alive... Clearly these individuals were serving a purpose of some sort for the community. I'm not saying it was religious... but it was a major cultural shift in 'human' behavior... and likely the role these people played was cultural.

wa:do

 

[michel]

Neanderthals finds have shown strong ritualistic/spiritual behavior... from burial practice to deliberate arrangement of animal bones in ways mirroring human animistic practice.

This indicates that the "wireing" for such behavior dates to our last shared common ancestor.
Indeed a close group to our shared ancestor is known to have begun keeping elderly, non-reproductive members alive... Clearly these individuals were serving a purpose of some sort for the community. I'm not saying it was religious... but it was a major cultural shift in 'human' behavior... and likely the role these people played was cultural.

wa:do

Do you not think that the elderly were there to look after their Grand children ? - I remember reading somewhere that grand parents have a big part to play - and the time in which to do it.

I can't speak for myself, because I hardly knew my grandparent - we were in Africa; by the time we came back, they were elderly, infirm - my English grandfather had had a stroke and was pretty unresponsive; his wife (my grandmother) suffered from Altzheimers.........


But our children really loved my parent - they never really knew my father in law (There was a difference of 36 years between him and Marie's mother).

Sometimes, if I talk of my paremnts and refer to them in that way "My mother" - our sons get upset, because they think that I am being possesive about whom I am talking about - they want the names they called them by used..........

 

[JMorris]

Neanderthals finds have shown strong ritualistic/spiritual behavior... from burial practice to deliberate arrangement of animal bones in ways mirroring human animistic practice.

This indicates that the "wireing" for such behavior dates to our last shared common ancestor.
Indeed a close group to our shared ancestor is known to have begun keeping elderly, non-reproductive members alive... Clearly these individuals were serving a purpose of some sort for the community. I'm not saying it was religious... but it was a major cultural shift in 'human' behavior... and likely the role these people played was cultural.

wa:do

interesting post

 

[painted wolf]

Do you not think that the elderly were there to look after their Grand children ? - I remember reading somewhere that grand parents have a big part to play - and the time in which to do it.

This would be a much larger gap than just grandparents... early humans reached sexual maturity much younger than H.sapiens does. You are also talking about individuals that would need healthy individuals to pre-chew their food and give them the softest choicest foods, lead them around and support them .... they wouldn't really be up to chasing kids around.
This is even more significant when you think about the fact that this is a nomadic people... people who had yet to figure out what clothing was and was still using fairly simple stone tools. (though they were likely starting to experiment with new tools, as the mental wireing to make complex stone tools is another shared trait that H.sapiens and H.neanderthalensis gained from them)

wa:do

 

[Caladan]

I think the key factor is the relationship between the Church and State. It seems to me that when religious leaders are empowered to govern, and granted some measure of state endorsement and power, they become violent, internally, externally, or both. In a secular system, in which their power is limited by the state, this tendency is inhibited.

I acknowledge what you're saying. but again, even modern history is not that simple. with the secularization of Europe there were indeed trends of partially including the Jews of Europe as one nation among many, however, what was once a traditional theological prejudice against the Jews made way for the use of science to foster prejudice against the Jews. when Jews were once persecuted on religious basis, now the discrimination was defined in racial terms.
I agree, it can be said that this was a conclusion of centuries of religious xenophobia which has simply arrived at its climax. still later into the modern era when the liberalization of Europe was spreading, nationalism has reached radical new heights which made the ground prepared for the dark episode of WWII.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"why did God kill many people? "

Remember the story of the scorpion and the frog?

That's why.

 

[curious-er]

in Gods commandments it says Thou Shalt Not Kill. then why in historie has God destroyed cities and killed many people. if God create humankind i n his image and if God is love then why does he kill people.

A rancher (yes, back to the herd annanlogy) kills some sick animals from his herd in order to protect the herd as a whole. Days later a neighbor comes over and kills some of the ranchers herd. When the rancher brings charges against the neighbor, the neighbor claims the rancher is a hypocrate. Why is it okay when the rancher kills some of the flock, but not the neighbor? The herd belongs to the rancher.

Every life, every cel, every particle, every molecule, every atom of everything in the universe was created by God, and continues to exist because of God. It belongs to him. Therefore as it's creator and owner, God has the right to determine it's use, function, longevity or lack there of.

You are looking at the removal of someones existance (which is what death is) from the stand point of the one who has no right to remove it. Humans are in essence animated dirt. We do not own, or have the right to take another persons life. To do so intentionally is murder. However the one who animated us, who provides the spark of life, has the right to remove that spark and return us to inanimate dirt. Because the life is his, the dirt is his, the spark is his.

 

[JMorris]

"why did God kill many people? "

Remember the story of the scorpion and the frog?

That's why.

THAT deserves frubals!

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"Because the life is his, the dirt is his, the spark is his."

So you say. But you present no evidence for this beyond your dogmatic assertion.

Why not bring this god of yours around for a chat? A few questions should settle this entire matter.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

THAT deserves frubals!

Thanks

 

[Don Penguinoini]

God kills no-one. We do.