why did God kill many people?

[Caladan]

Yet try as they may they cannot deny this simple fact. If you do not believe in a god you will not be willing to kill in its name.

This post is completely detached from reality, dozens of millions of people have been butchered without a belief in god being involved, people are sent into death camps in DPRK today without Christianity or a deity involved.

 

[Caladan]

And another important change is that Christians are no longer permitted, let alone encouraged, to kill people like this. Christianity was forced to progress by the forces of secularism. Left to its own devices, you get mass murder. It's only when we separate Church and state and enforce secular law that Christian killings (not murder according to the Bible?) get under control. You do see the occasional breakout, though.

WOW, OK. sorry but this is all just too paranoid for me. I could never live with the belief that my fellow citizens are capable of crucifying me at any given moment when given enough leash.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

And another important change is that Christians are no longer permitted, let alone encouraged, to kill people like this. Christianity was forced to progress by the forces of secularism. Left to its own devices, you get mass murder. It's only when we separate Church and state and enforce secular law that Christian killings (not murder according to the Bible?) get under control. You do see the occasional breakout, though.

Stalinist Russia and communist China should be remembered here. Both are models of a non-religious state, and Stalinist Russia killed more people alone than any other state in history, including Nazi Germany (which was a Christian state).

You're right, religion can be dangerous, but so can anything else when combined with a psychotic nationalistic ideology.

 

[Katzpur]

in Gods commandments it says Thou Shalt Not Kill. then why in historie has God destroyed cities and killed many people. if God create humankind i n his image and if God is love then why does he kill people.

So He should let everybody live forever? Sounds like a real bummer to me.

 

[Buttons*]

No, no, no, you're missing the key point. If God tells you to do it, then it's not murder; it's just killing, which is permitted. "Murder," means unlawful killing. If God tells you to do it, then you're complying with God's law. So as soon as you persuade us that God told you to, then it's not murder at all.

If our government tells us to kill people, it's not murder, it's just killing - it's the same damned thing. Do you have a problem with our government? Maybe, but it's still our governing body. Maybe some people who believe in God feel that way about him. "Sure he can sometimes do that, but until he asks for it, we do nothing." And when, lately, has God commanded people to die or kill in his name? Aside from a few Schizophrenics, I don't know any Christians who desire to follow God's "law to kill." (Partly because there really isn't one...)

 

[painted wolf]

The apologists for religion have no shame.

Yet try as they may they cannot deny this simple fact. If you do not believe in a god you will not be willing to kill in its name.

Those blind to reality will forget humans will find a host of reasons to kill one another that have nothing to do with faith.
Nationalism, resources, political ideology....

Only those totally detached from the complexities of the real world would suggest that every struggle in human history was based purely on religion.

But there would be no witches burned or heretics racked or heathens beheaded. Nor would science have been held hostage to superstition.

Right because only religious people torture others... No torture in the name of any other power than god has ever happened.

Yup... never a gulag or political prisoner maltreated for any reason but religion.

Communism was great for science... they didn't cripple themselves with politically dogmatic views of science like denying evolution by natural selection in favor of Lamarckism.

wa:do

 

[OmarKhayyam]

This post is completely detached from reality, dozens of millions of people have been butchered without a belief in god being involved, people are sent into death camps in DPRK today without Christianity or a deity involved.

Notice how they twist the argument and introduce irrelevant issues. They truly have neither shame nor intellectual integrity.

The argument is:

Unless you believe in "god" - any god - you will NOT kill in its name.

That fact has NOTHING whatever to do with any events in Korea - nothing.

Again, if I don't believe in "God" i will not kill in "God's" name. If I don't believe in "God" I won't CARE if there are heretics or not. I won't CARE if there are godless heathens or not. I won't CARE if you don't believe in god.

If I don't believe in Allah I won't kill in Allah's name.

Simple even obvious.

But note how they create a strawman to avoid the obvious.

 

[painted wolf]

The implication you made was that killing in gods name is the predominant excuse for killing.

Tap dance around it all you want.

wa:do

 

[Quagmire]

So He should let everybody live forever? Sounds like a real bummer to me.

Yes. :yes:

then we would be looking at threads with titles like, "How could a beneficient God let this place get so damned crowded"?

 

[logician]

Nobody has a corner on morality, and religion is not about morality, as is obvious.

 

[Quagmire]

Unless you believe in "god" - any god

Does Money, Oil, Land, or Power count (because that's all it's ever really about anyway)?

- you will NOT kill in its name.

True; if you don't care about any of the above, you probably wont bother attacking, invading, or killing anybody.

Again, if I don't believe in "God" i will not kill in "God's" name.

Depends on what qualifies something as a person's "God".

If I don't believe in "God" I won't CARE if there are heretics or not.

No, but you'll still want their land.

I won't CARE if there are godless heathens or not.

...but you'll still want their land.

I won't CARE if you don't believe in god.

...but you'll still want....

 

[painted wolf]

Nobody has a corner on morality, and religion is not about morality, as is obvious.

Exactly.
Though religions incorporate morality into their philosophies, the purpose of religion goes far beyond simple moral codes. Religion is a social unification tool, an expression of culture and history, a way to improve oneself as well as a way to reach an ultimate goal. ("heaven" in some faiths)

wa:do

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"Does Money, Oil, Land, or Power count (because that's all it's ever really about anyway)?"

No, that is NOT what religious killings are about. The religious kill solely exclusively for RELIGIOUS reasons. Not $ not power not land not fame not revenge not sex NOTHING but religion.

Nothing else matters nor is anything else a factor.

Has religion been used by the non-religious as an excuse or cover? You bet. Stalin springs quickly to mind. But Stalin was not a believer. Believers kill just 'cause you don't worship my god.' Or worship my god the right way.

The Russians Christians killed each other over how to make the sign of the cross. But if they didn't believe making that gesture meant anything . . .

 

[painted wolf]

No, that is NOT what religious killings are about. The religious kill solely exclusively for RELIGIOUS reasons. Not $ not power not land not fame not revenge not sex NOTHING but religion.

Nothing else matters nor is anything else a factor.

I think you will find purely religious killings to be rather uncommon. Most killings are complex with a lot of factors working into them.

Even 9/11 wasn't solely about religion... it was about politics as much as it was about faith.

wa:do

 

[Caladan]

Notice how they twist the argument and introduce irrelevant issues. They truly have neither shame nor intellectual integrity.

Nice ad hom.

The argument is:

Unless you believe in "god" - any god - you will NOT kill in its name.

weak. think out of the box for a bit, we might as well say: "Unless you believe in [enter belief]- any [belief]- you will NOT kill in its name.
atrocities have never been the child of a single parent.
religion, politics, culture and society, economic interests, all these and more cannot be seperated from each other.

That fact has NOTHING whatever to do with any events in Korea - nothing.

Actually it has everything to do with how this thread has unfolded. several members have singled out religion as if it was exclusively THE root of many negative phenomena. while other members, myself included, claim that religion is one aspect of the social jigsaw, an aspect which is rapidly changing. and there is no point, today in the developed world to make a voodoo doll out of it. in fact its passe.

 

[Autodidact]

WOW, OK. sorry but this is all just too paranoid for me. I could never live with the belief that my fellow citizens are capable of crucifying me at any given moment when given enough leash.

People, all of us, are capably of horrors (as well as heroism) under the right circumstances. For a recent example, Rwanda's Tutsis were probably not living with the belief that their fellow citizens were capable of killing them by the thousand, but they were.

 

[Autodidact]

Stalinist Russia and communist China should be remembered here. Both are models of a non-religious state, and Stalinist Russia killed more people alone than any other state in history, including Nazi Germany (which was a Christian state).

You're right, religion can be dangerous, but so can anything else when combined with a psychotic nationalistic ideology.

Which, as I said, is not my point. I was arguing that what people believe about God affects their actions. Caladan replied that today's Christians don't go around stoning adulterers, and I responded that when they were permitted to, they did. I don't think that the people who burned thousands of innocent women at the stake were significantly different than us, they just believed different things than we do, and lived in an environment that encouraged and enabled those beliefs.

Of course, what people believe about other things affects their actions, in much the same way.

 

[Autodidact]

If our government tells us to kill people, it's not murder, it's just killing - it's the same damned thing. Do you have a problem with our government?

Sometimes.

Maybe, but it's still our governing body. Maybe some people who believe in God feel that way about him. "Sure he can sometimes do that, but until he asks for it, we do nothing." And when, lately, has God commanded people to die or kill in his name? Aside from a few Schizophrenics, I don't know any Christians who desire to follow God's "law to kill." (Partly because there really isn't one...)

Yes, and when the Nazis killed millions of people, it was wrong, whether or not their government ordered it. If the Israelites really did slaughter every Midianite, it was wrong, whether or not they believed that their God commanded it. But millions of modern Christians believed that it was (or would have been) right. That's where I take issue, both with the Nazis and those Christians. As for modern Christians no longer cutting swaths of destruction and brutality across the continent, I submit it's because modern secular democracy restrains them from doing so. For another example, apparently thousands of Muslims, with similar beliefs, do want to kill or die in Allah's name, because they are not so constrained.

 

[Autodidact]

The implication you made was that killing in gods name is the predominant excuse for killing.

Tap dance around it all you want.

wa:do

He never said that or anything like that.

 

[logician]

Religion is like any other institution, it's as good or bad as the people running it.

If you've ever been a member of any church, that should be obvious.