Why did the early church send greetings in God, and in Jesus Christ, instead of a trinity?

[ecco]

The next time someone says evolution must be wrong because there are disagreements on the specifics, I'll point them to the crux of this thread and remind them that Christianity must be wrong because there are disagreements on the specifics.

 

[Soapy]

Brian2, you mention John 17:8 I guess in a flawed effort at a trinity claim but which actually declares and proves that Jesus is not God.

• “For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.”

Jesus, here, states that GOD gave him the words to give to the Disciples/Apostles.

Jesus is the servant of God and was taught by GOD what to say and do:

• “For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.” (John 5:20)

The Father SHOWS the Son… and even what the Father has shown the Son so far, the Son says there is far more the Father has to show him such that the world will be amazed. Meaning that the Son is STILL being taught…!

Hardly a case for a GOD to be TAUGHT… except, of course, if he is a PAGAN god!!!

It is THE FATHER who raised the dead. And in time to come at the judgement seat, the Son will raise the dead to judge them and give them eternal life or consign them to eternal death of the spirit:

• “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.” (John 5:21)

You will see that when Jesus was involved in the raising up of the dead (or ‘sleeping’) ones, Jesus always prayed to the Father for the Holy Spirit. Jesus and the Scriptures explained why he did that:

• “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.” (John 11:22)….
• “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.” (John 11:27)….
• “Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?” So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.” (John 11:40-42)

What the above extract shows is that Martha believed that GOD would GIVE Jesus what was necessary to raise up Lazarus. She acknowledges that Jesus is THE MESSIAH… (the Messiah IS NOT GOD) She believed that Jesus was the Son of God (The Son of God IS NOT GOD).
Jesus, moved by the love shown to Lazarus, and being a friend of Lazarus, CRIED OUT TO GOD for the ability to raise up Lazarus (temporarily … as Martha said, ‘I know he will be raised up at the last day’… this was not that Last Day… Lazarus died again at some time in his life afterwards, obviously). So Jesus’ ‘raising up of the dead’ was temporary. No one who Jesus raised up lived forever… they all died because this was NOT the LAST DAY… the true resurrection was assigned to Jesus BY GOD as well as the judgement … these two acts were GRANTED to the Son BY GOD:

• “For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.” (John 5:26)
• “And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.” (John 5:27)
• “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,” (John 5:22)

‘And you believe that the Father sent me!’

The ‘Sending from the Father’ was after Jesus was anointed by the Father:

• “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.“ (Acts 10:37-38)

Here is a profound declaration that it was by the anointing that Jesus gained the powers that allowed him to carry out the acts he performed. This is compounded by the powers the Apostles received when they too were anointed by Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

These powers are not a direct personal fleshly advantage. It means that the Holy Spirit infuses the individual according to the strength of their belief. Jesus, of course, was infused with the FULL MEASURE of the Holy Spirit…:

• “The Father was pleased that the son should be filled with the fullness of the Holy Spirit’
• “And a voice was heard from Heaven saying “This is my Son in whom I am well pleased” as the holy spiritual slighted on Jesus in a light fluttering breeze like that produced by a dove.

The apostles, it will be noted, only received measured portions and therefore only specific powers according to their strength of belief. And the Holy Spirit anointed them with tongues of fire and wind and thunder… unlike Jesus’ anointment. (Why do Pentecostal churches this use a Dove for their Bible logo when it was Tongues of fire that was the anointing at Pentecost???)

So, you see, no one, not even the most staunch believer in Jesus Christ, the messiah, believed that Jesus was GOD…. Yet hundreds and thousands of years later groups called Trinitarians claim a lie that he was ALMIGHTY GOD IN FLESH!!!

Heresy, scandal, blasphemy, pagan worship of the created being…

‘For they change the truth into a lie and worship the created being and place the created soul on the throne of God calling him God when he himself claimed he was not… nor should there be a reason to deny what he is not nor any reason to claim that he was when no one at the time ever really claimed him to be so… An emissary who claims he is the king who SENT HIM to speak the words of the king… is a dangerous emissary … this emissary is the trinitarian Jesus-God’.

 

[Soapy]

The next time someone says evolution must be wrong because there are disagreements on the specifics, I'll point them to the crux of this thread and remind them that Christianity must be wrong because there are disagreements on the specifics.

The specifics are concerning a pagan God-Man belief and a true Sinless righteous holy man belief.
The trinitarian cannot distinguish that their belief IS Pagan … while vehemently admonishing all claims of ‘Gods’ which …ARE PAGAN… you know the type:

• Superman
• Thor
• Heracles
• Achilles
• The Egyptian god-men
• …

Yes… Trinitarians deny these because they don’t come under the ‘Christian’ hat but don’t want to realise that ‘Jesus’ is exactly the same as pagan belief … that Jesus Christ is a ‘God-Man’. In fact done Trinitarians (no two Trinitarians actually agree on what trinity believes … which is great for denying a trinity claim when it is shown to be false:

• ‘Not me, guv! I don’t believe THAT trinity claim… I believe THIS equally insane and equally blasphemous trinity claim!!’

 

[ecco]

Brian2, you mention John 17:8 I guess in a flawed effort at a trinity claim but which actually declares and proves that Jesus is not God.

• “For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.”

Jesus, here, states that GOD gave him the words to give to the Disciples/Apostles.

Who was the eyewitness that recorded these words of Jesus?

 

[ecco]

Yes… Trinitarians deny these because they don’t come under the ‘Christian’ hat but don’t want to realise that ‘Jesus’ is exactly the same as pagan belief … that Jesus Christ is a ‘God-Man’. In fact done Trinitarians (no two Trinitarians actually agree on what trinity believes … which is great for denying a trinity claim when it is shown to be false:

As I said...I'll point them to the crux of this thread and remind them that Christianity must be wrong because there are disagreements on the specifics.

 

[Soapy]

As I said...I'll point them to the crux of this thread and remind them that Christianity must be wrong because there are disagreements on the specifics.

TRINITARIAN Christianity is wrong.

It should be patently clear that if Jesus was God then there would be no need to differentiate him FROM GOD…

Even the simple fact that Jesus is called, and calls himself, ‘Son’ of God, should demonstrate that he IS NOT GOD.

The Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD!

A Son IS NOT his Father.

And clearly, Jesus IS NOT HIS FATHER.

But when Trinitarians realise this simple yet profound truth it makes them gag! So they developed a get-out: Say that the Son is of the SAME SUBSTANCE and nature as the Father…
Which is ridiculous when it comes Spirit… because GOD, the FATHER of all things, including the holy angelic Spirits, and the spirit in mankind, DOES NOT PROCREATE.

Now, you won’t find many, if any, Trinitarians talking about Procreation and Creation. Why? Because they would have to admit that it is impossible fir GOD to have ‘A Son’ as Spirit… Sake substance, same nature!!!

It is the FLESH which is ‘same nature; same substance’. Spirit, is not a substance. Trinity basically created a God and his Son in a flesh model instead of the other way round.

So, I beg you, ask a trinitarian to define ‘God’ and ‘Son of God’ and see the farce that they come up with… honestly, try it!!!

The reality and truth is that ‘Son’ in spiritual terms means:

• ‘He who does the works of the Father’

You will read many times where Jesus states that he is doing and finishing THE WORKS that his Father gave him to do…

THAT is the epitome of ‘A Son’.

The holy angels, likewise, carry out exactly what God commands them to do… therefore they too are classed as ‘Sons of God’.

‘Son’, in spiritual terms, therefore has nothing to do with procreation. So there is no linking of ‘substance’ or nature of a direct sort. But it is clear that ‘a Son’ (which, ironically, is a similar word to SERVANT in Hebrew) must CARRY the nature of him who instructed him, commanded him, SENT HIM… If a king raged over a action then the Son rages too because it reflects the kings anger … it is conveyed to the audience. If a Master sends a servant pleading with his lost Son, then the servant imitates the pleading of the father…

As such, we can see that Jesus perfectly REFLECTS the nature of God, his spirit Father, and as such is called, ‘The image of God’, which rightly shows that Jesus ‘does nothing that he does not first see his Father do!’… Can an image do anything but what it’s source does…? That is a perfect image that reflects only what it’s source does… and when that source is holy, righteous, sinless, and powerful, then so is the image!!

Truly, what is the point or purpose to GOD clothing himself in flesh and coming into his own creation to save his own creation from the sin caused by his creation… No! The salvation must come as a penance from one whom is of the creation.

There is plenty more but [im on my lunch bylreak at work…]

 

[ecco]

TRINITARIAN Christianity is wrong.
<snip>
There is plenty more but [im on my lunch bylreak at work…]

In your opinion, "TRINITARIAN Christianity is wrong."

That's all it is, an opinion. An unsubstantiated opinion. The "facts" going into your argument are all based on the writings of mortal men trying to start a new religion. In other words, their opinions.

So, your conclusion is nothing more than your opinion which is based on the opinions of others.




Furthermore, your opinion is contrary to the opinions of other Christians. As I said, this is a great example of the overall weakness of Christianity. Thousands of sects and cults, all with their own views, all derived from interpretations of the same small body of writing by anonymous authors.

 

[Soapy]

In your opinion, "TRINITARIAN Christianity is wrong."

That's all it is, an opinion. An unsubstantiated opinion. The "facts" going into your argument are all based on the writings of mortal men trying to start a new religion. In other words, their opinions.

So, your conclusion is nothing more than your opinion which is based on the opinions of others.




Furthermore, your opinion is contrary to the opinions of other Christians. As I said, this is a great example of the overall weakness of Christianity. Thousands of sects and cults, all with their own views, all derived from interpretations of the same small body of writing by anonymous authors.

Quite right. My opinion IS COUNTER to MOST TRINITARIAN CHRISTIANS!!

And that’s the point!!

The road to eternal death is broad and wide and easily travelled by the majority. The road to eternal life is narrow, rocky, not easily travelled, and found by the few!

It’s so easy to believe in a GOD-MAN who gives up being GOD (can you believe that??) to become a feeble man (less than the angels he is supposed to have created : Christians will know the verse that pertains to!).
It’s not so easy (but they do) to believe that this God-man who gave up being God REMAINED being God even after he Gave up being God!
And then did great works BY THE POWER OF GOD that he WASN’T-BUT-WAS when he felt like it (Schizophrenic) and feared dying despite being GOD who cannot die (Paranoid schizophrenia)…. Spoke to himself for help to overcome sin etc.

Yep! I DO speak unlike most other Christians.

 

[Brian2]

\
Trinity say in one breath that the Father created [through the Son!!????]… then you say it was the Son that created!!!

Which is it…? Both statements cannot be true.

The Bible says that all things have been created by/through the Son.

So, how did the Son create all things and yet not carry a title of ‘Father’? Hmmm… a demon question worthy of a demon answer!!!

The title Son shows the relationship the Son has to His Father, not to us.

‘IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME’… God caused a NEW ADAM to be born BUT NOT OF THE SEED OF A SON OF ADAM, but a mew creation as of the FIRST CREATED MAN, Adam.

Jesus is the the seed of the woman (Gen 3:15) and still is human.
Jesus came from heaven and His spirit was placed in a body.

‘It can hardly be righteous that ‘GOD, himself’ should be a sacrifice to save his own creation.

It proves nothing to anyone that it is possible for man to live a sinless life….

God cannot sin so what would be the point? ….

God cannot die so what would be the purpose?

Jesus the man was tempted as we all are and did not sin.
God is not even tempted by what we human are tempted by.
When we humans die bodily our souls do not die (Matt 10:28),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the man Jesus died just the same as we die and His living soul went to the place of the dead, hades.

And yes, ‘God raised up God’ is silly….

‘God was seated next to God’ is ridiculous and blasphemous….

‘God being anointed by God’ is plain stupid…

‘God putting on flesh’ is pagan…

Yet all the above and more ARE TRINITY BELIEFS!

You said it…!

You are twisting what I said and just showing that what I said was right. It does sound silly to say that God is seated next to God etc. The language used cannot say such things and still make sense to us. So the Bible language speaks of God and Son and Spirit of God.

 

[Brian2]

It’s so easy to believe in a GOD-MAN who gives up being GOD (can you believe that??) to become a feeble man (less than the angels he is supposed to have created : Christians will know the verse that pertains to!).
It’s not so easy (but they do) to believe that this God-man who gave up being God REMAINED being God even after he Gave up being God!
And then did great works BY THE POWER OF GOD that he WASN’T-BUT-WAS when he felt like it (Schizophrenic) and feared dying despite being GOD who cannot die (Paranoid schizophrenia)…. Spoke to himself for help to overcome sin etc.

Yep! I DO speak unlike most other Christians.

You speak like the atheist mockers of Christianity who make a parody of the gospel.
You make a parody of the trinity doctrine for the sake of making fun of it.
IOW you set up a strawman and dress it at a clown and it has nothing to do with the trinity doctrine.
Why don't you just answer the scriptural quotes presented to you which show that your own beliefs about Jesus are false?

 

[Soapy]

You speak like the atheist mockers of Christianity who make a parody of the gospel.
You make a parody of the trinity doctrine for the sake of making fun of it.
IOW you set up a strawman and dress it at a clown and it has nothing to do with the trinity doctrine.
Why don't you just answer the scriptural quotes presented to you which show that your own beliefs about Jesus are false?

Ah Brian2, Brian2, it’s so sad that you believe what you believe despite what the reality is. The parody that you speak of is exactly what I claim trinity makes for itself - that’s why it is so easy to be a detractor of it.

Yo recognise that Jesus is not God when it is pointed out to you that God cannot be seated next to God nor can Jesus be EQUAL to God … let alone be equal to God and BE GOD!

True true true… it’s a farce! Glad you see it!

Now what do you say about John 1:1? (The word of God created all things and was God and was with God????!!!)

The ‘word of God’ is the very WORD that God spoke to create all things: ‘Let there be light’… Now that is one monumental, glorious, all powerful, amazingly intelligent, masterful Word!!

Oh, the definition of ‘God’:

• Monumental
• Glorious
• All Powerful
• Amazingly intelligent
• Masterful
• …

Yep, ‘The word of the masterful, all powerful one was… ‘amazingly intelligent, glorious, wonderful, majestic’ “The word of God [the being] was God [adjective]’

• “The chess grandmaster was GOD of his game”
• “The judge in his courtroom was GOD”
• “The Principal of the school was God”

When I asked for a definition of ‘God’ no one replied … I know why…!!

 

[ecco]

The road to eternal life is narrow, rocky, not easily travelled, and found by the few!

A few, indeed.

Millions of "fews" all believe they are the ones who have found the True Path.

There are the few millions of Muslims.
There are the few millions of Trinitarians.
There are the few millions of Hindus.

Nothing makes any of them, or you, special.

 

[moorea944]

A few, indeed.

Millions of "fews" all believe they are the ones who have found the True Path.

There are the few millions of Muslims.
There are the few millions of Trinitarians.
There are the few millions of Hindus.

Nothing makes any of them, or you, special.

I disagree.

Even Peter reminds the brothers and sisters (or saints) in his book that they are special (Paul does the same). They are holy, they are called, etc, etc.
That you should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

For even hereunto were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow his steps:

So you see, there are some people in this world that are special to God. Maybe not to man or to you, which I really dont care one way or the other. But what really counts is that we are special to our Heavenly Father.....

 

[ecco]

A few, indeed.

Millions of "fews" all believe they are the ones who have found the True Path.

There are the few millions of Muslims.
There are the few millions of Trinitarians.
There are the few millions of Hindus.

Nothing makes any of them, or you, special.

I disagree.

Well of course you disagree. That is my point. A Muslim reading this would also disagree.

So you see, there are some people in this world that are special to God. Maybe not to man or to you, which I really dont care one way or the other. But what really counts is that we are special to our Heavenly Father.....

Wrong. There are many, many people in this world who believe they are special to God. It doesn't matter which god. It doesn't matter which religion. All Muslims believe they are special to God. All Hindus believe they are special to God. All Bahai's believe they are special to God.

No one is in a religion thinking, "Wow, maybe I should become a/an ______ so that I too could be special to God. In my current religion, I am nothing special to God".

 

[Soapy]

A few, indeed.

Millions of "fews" all believe they are the ones who have found the True Path.

There are the few millions of Muslims.
There are the few millions of Trinitarians.
There are the few millions of Hindus.

Nothing makes any of them, or you, special.

The important thing is to have faith in what we believe - But what we believe must be faithful to the belief we believe in.

You believe in nothing… you have faith in nothingness.

Jesus said that it is better that it is better to believe and have faith in something than that is not true than to have no faith at all.

‘it is better to be cold or hot than tepid for me. Tepid is bitter and I spit you out!’

 

[Soapy]

Well of course you disagree. That is my point. A Muslim reading this would also disagree.



Wrong. There are many, many people in this world who believe they are special to God. It doesn't matter which god. It doesn't matter which religion. All Muslims believe they are special to God. All Hindus believe they are special to God. All Bahai's believe they are special to God.

No one is in a religion thinking, "Wow, maybe I should become a/an ______ so that I too could be special to God. In my current religion, I am nothing special to God".

But we are not debating with Muslims.

We are debating with persons of like faith but different interpretations of that same faith.

We are dialoguing the true faith of a singular basic tenet.

 

[ecco]

You believe in nothing… you have faith in nothingness.

I guess it somehow makes you feel good to believe that. You are wrong of course. But, if that's what you need to get through the day -oh well.

Jesus said that it is better that it is better to believe and have faith in something than that is not true than to have no faith at all.

Mirror, mirror, on the wall.

In any case, all you are doing is providing examples to prove my point:

• All theists believe their god is the right true real god.
• All theists believe their religion is the right true real religion.
• All theists believe other gods are false gods.
• All theists believe other religions are wrong.

 

[ecco]

But we are not debating with Muslims.

We are debating with persons of like faith but different interpretations of that same faith.

We are dialoguing the true faith of a singular basic tenet.

Nonsense. You are making claims for and about your religious beliefs. Those claims are no different than the claims made by all theists of all religious beliefs.

Is your comment about debates with Muslims the beginning of a duck and dodge strategy?

 

[Soapy]

A Christian named Irenaeus wrote in 180 AD "Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spake to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers."

So you believe this guy, Irenaeus, is defining ‘God’ as ‘Father and Christ’, as three-person trinity!!!?

You believe that Irenaeus believed that, ‘I and the Father are one’ proves a three-person trinity?

That ‘trinitarian Christians’ define “God” as “Him” who sat on the throne (God) and “the lamb looking as though slaughtered (Jesus), STANDING in front of the throne and among the elders (human holy men!).

And Irenaeus would have heard of the martyr, Stephen, when stoned (??!!) in vision, saw heaven open and saw: ‘GOD SEATED on the throne and Jesus STANDING next to him’.

And these two, in clear heirachially separate positions, constitute a trinity of persons as one co-equal almighty God?

So, Irenaeus didn’t consider a third person in a trinity because there was no such thing as a trinity of persons as one God… point to note that ETERNAL LIFE depends on believing that:

• “Father, …[is] The only true God”
• “Jesus Christ is Lord”

“God” and “Lord” are far different titled positions. And ‘Only True’ God purposes that ‘others can be called “God” but there is one and only one that is true’. And Jesus Christ, whom the only true God SENT, is not [included as] ‘only true God’, but only as “Lord”.

Going back.. where did Irenaeus derive the claim that the Father, together with Jesus Christ, spoke to Moses and manifested to the fathers?

And, in any case, Jesus BECAME ‘Christ’ after he was ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit which the Father SANCTIFIED him with.

What does ‘Anointed’ and ‘Sanctified’ mean?

 

[Soapy]

This it what happens when people try to make sense of decisions that were made under duress by a group of men trying to reconcile two different religious concepts.

There is only one God.
The people of that God were promised a Messiah.
The Messiah is the Son of God, the Father.
Reminder: There is Only One God.
The Son (the Messiah) is part of the God/Father; indistinguishable from the God/Father.
The Holy Ghost? Well, he's the one who impregnated Mary thereby preserving the concept of a Messiah-from-a-Virgin.
This raises the question of why did God/Father not impregnate Mary Himself?


Conundrums wrapped in enigmas wrapped in "How the hell are we supposed to reconcile all of this?"


All of this, and a lot more, would have been avoided if Marcion had won out. Oh, well. To the victors...

It’s more than two conceptual ideas. It’s THREE….!!

There’s the two lies and the third us the truth!

Neither the Athanasian nor the Arian belief is the truth. It’s the old: ‘Tell two lies and prove one of the wrong … the second is therefore FORCED to be claimed as the truth!’.

And there is the false premise method:

• Jesus said only God was Good
• Jesus was not bad
• Therefore Jesus must be God!!!

also:

• God is our only Lord and Saviour (Old Testament)
• Jesus is our only Lord and Saviour (New Testament)
• Therefore Jesus must be God!!!

And:

• The word of God was God
• Jesus is the word of God that was WITH GOD
• Jesus must be God (*who was WITH GOD)

Really???

That’s trinitarian logic for you - illogical.
*Trinitarians cannot see their fallacy and twisted logic in which they both claim that:

• There is only one God
• Beside this one God there is no other

and:

• Jesus is the God that was beside God
  • ‘Raised up to Heaven and seated at the RIGHT HAND OF GOD
  • Stephen looking up into heaven saw God seated on his throne - and Jesus STANDING next to him (note: no third person)
  • John by the spirit saw - ‘Him who sat on the throne’ and ‘The lamb of God looking as though slaughtered STANDING in front of the throne and in the midst of the elders (human holy men!)

It must be some strong delusion that obscures the truth to these trinitarian types…
Oh, yes… ‘God will send them a strong delusion such that they will believe the lie!’

Of course, and what God prophesies must come true .. . So there it is … Only the spirit of God coming into them will change them to the truth … we can only hope and pray and keep teaching that one or a few of each that we reach out to will gain that Holy Spirit and be saved, even on their last living day.