Why did the Jews reject their Messiah when he DID come?

[sooda]

If you are asking whether his movement came to establish a worldwide religion, no it did not. Other political factors simply were not there to carry it to that end as was so for Christianity. This, however, is not the point.

We were talking about Jesus, and how his followers believe he came back from the dead, and the claim was made that this was unique. It is not. So the fact that his followers believed he had risen cannot be used as evidence for the resurrection unless you also want to say that Al Hallaj also came back from the dead.

Gilding the lily is a tricky strategy. Supernatural myths may do more harm than good.

 

[Spartan]

The Genesis account comes from Sumer. It wasn't "borrowed" by them. Until Abraham, all
of Genesis has nothing to do with any Jew or Israel - both didn't exist.

That's a theory - that it came from Sumer. I never have seen any credible evidence to back that up.

 

[sooda]

That's a theory - that it came from Sumer. I never have seen any credible evidence to back that up.

Samuel Noah Kramer: History Begins at Sumer

The Ugaretic tablets of the north coast Canaanites.

The Dilmun Tablets

The Nag Hammadi

Code of Hamurabbi

 

[Spartan]

Samuel Noah Kramer: History Begins at Sumer

The Ugaretic tablets of the north coast Canaanites.

The Dilmun Tablets

The Nag Hammadi

Code of Hamurabbi

Lots of theories.

 

[sooda]

Lots of theories.

Not theories, Hard evidence.. scratched in ancient clay tablets long before Genesis.

 

[Spartan]

Not theories, Hard evidence.. scratched in ancient clay tablets long before Genesis.

Nuts. Like I said before, there could be older tablets discovered tomorrow that support the Genesis accounts. And any flood accounts would have come from Noah and/or his descendants to the Sumerians.

 

[sooda]

The Nag Hammadi Library - Gnosticism Explained
gnosticismexplained.org/the-nag-hammadi-library
The Nag Hammadi codices. The Nag Hammadi Library is a collection of early Christian scriptures (and a few other miscellaneous texts) discovered in the Egyptian desert in the middle of the twentieth century that has forced us to reconsider much of what we thought we knew about early Christianity, especially the type of early Christianity known as “Gnosticism.”

 

[sooda]

Nuts. Like I said before, there could be older tablets discovered tomorrow that support the Genesis accounts. And any flood accounts would have come from Noah and/or his descendants to the Sumerians.

The Summerians were accomplished farmers long before Adam and Eve. They had already invented writing, irrigation and sailboats by then.

 

[Spartan]

The Summerians were accomplished farmers long before Adam and Eve. They had already invented writing, irrigation and sailboats by then.

Save that fluff for somebody else.

 

[sooda]

1. Code of Hammurabi - Wikipedia
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi
   The Code of Hammurabi is a well-preserved Babylonian code of law of ancient Mesopotamia, dated back to about 1754 BC (Middle Chronology). It is one of the oldest deciphered writings of significant length in the world. The sixth Babylonian king, Hammurabi, enacted the code. A partial copy exists on a 2.25-meter (7.5 ft) stone stele.
   
   
2. Code of Hammurabi - HISTORY
   www.history.com/topics/ancient-history/hammurabi
   The Code of Hammurabi was one of the earliest and most complete written legal codes and was proclaimed by the Babylonian king Hammurabi, who reigned from 1792 to 1750 B.C. Hammurabiexpanded the ...
   

 

[sooda]

Save that fluff for somebody else.

The only reason you don't know is because you don't want to know.

1. 
   
2. History Begins at Sumer | Samuel Noah Kramer
   www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/1059.html
   History Begins at Sumer is the classic account of the achievements of the Sumerians, who lived in what is now southern Iraq during the third millennium B.C. They were the developers of the cuneiform system of writing, perhaps their greatest contribution to civilization, which allowed laws and literature to be recorded for the first time.
   
   
3. History Begins at Sumer: Thirty-Nine Firsts in Recorded ...
   www.goodreads.com/.../935992.History_Begins_at_Sumer

 

[Spartan]

The only reason you don't know is because you don't want to know.

1. 
   
2. History Begins at Sumer | Samuel Noah Kramer
   www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/1059.html
   History Begins at Sumer is the classic account of the achievements of the Sumerians, who lived in what is now southern Iraq during the third millennium B.C. They were the developers of the cuneiform system of writing, perhaps their greatest contribution to civilization, which allowed laws and literature to be recorded for the first time.
   
   
3. History Begins at Sumer: Thirty-Nine Firsts in Recorded ...
   www.goodreads.com/.../935992.History_Begins_at_Sumer

Flush

 

[sooda]

1. Ugarit - Wikipedia
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit
   By excavating the highest levels of the city's ruins, archaeologists can study various attributes of Ugaritic civilization just before their destruction, and compare artifacts with those of nearby cultures to help establish dates. Ugarit also contained many caches of cuneiform tablets, actual libraries that contained a wealth of information.
   
   
2. The Tablets from Ugarit : Center for Online Judaic Studies
   cojs.org/the_tablets_from_ugarit_and_their_importance...
   Ugaritic is a Northwest Semitic language and a close linguistic relative of Biblical Hebrew. The archives of Ras Shamra have yielded several thousand tablets, including 1,400 texts in the Ugariticlanguage and scripta; while many are fragmentary, others have been preserved in excellent condition.
   

 

[sooda]

The Indus Civilization and Dilmun, the Sumerian Paradise Land
www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/the-indus...
The Indus Civilization and Dilmun, the Sumerian Paradise Land. One of the most striking and impressive features of the Indus cities and towns is the important role which water and cleanliness seem to have played in the life of the people, as is evident from the extraordinary number of wells and baths in both public and private buildings,...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So YOU see no distinction between Isaiah's lowly man of sorrows who rejected fame
and power, forgave his enemies and entreated others to be as He was.
As compared to the Catholic Church (say) of the Middle Ages which crowned kings,
lived in sumptuous wealth, ruled the known world and killed those who opposed or did
not believe in it?

I think you have the classic problem of not being able to make distinctions.

I've lost the train of reasoning here. How does this reply to what you quoted?

Isaiah 53 refers to the remnant of Israel suffering vicariously for the rest of Israel.

All I said was that the Christian Church has a shameful history, not one that it can tout as an example of being inspired of God. Many Christians reply by using the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, which of course is no good at all. It really more admirable if a Christian accepts the responsibility for his Church's unseemly past. After all, we Jews accept our own past of idolatry, etc.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jacob, grandson of Abraham, spoke of a future Hebrew nation with a king.
But that this king would last only until the Messiah came, and in this Messiah
would the Gentiles trust.
Moses showed the people the nature of his Messiah, “...like unto me from the
midst, of your brethren. Him you shall hear.”
Job told the people that his Redeemer already lives and one day shall stand
upon the earth.
David saw the Messiah suffering on the cross
Isaiah saw his as the lowly man of sorrows who paid the price to redeem us.
Zechariah showed this lowly man and the reigning king were one and the same person.
Malachi celebrated his coming as one who would heal.
King Nebuchadnezzar saw him as "the son of God."

Please give me the chapter and verse in Genesis where Jacob/Israel speaks about a future King of his descendents that would last until a "messiah" came.

The prophet "like unto Moses" is Joshua.

The verse you are referring to in Job refers to God, not the Messiah, and Job is NOT in the Torah, it is in the Tanakh. The Bible often refers to God in anthropomorphic terms.

David did NOT see a messiah suffering on the cross. The verses you refer to are from a Greek MIStranslation known as the Septuagint. This is why Christians need to be able to read Hebrew, because they get fooled by these translations that use the flawed Greek manuscripts. If you knew Hebrew you would know that the correct translation of Psalm 22:17 is " For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet."

Isaiah 53's suffering servant refers to the Remnant of Israel, not the messiah. When you read the entire book of Isaiah, you will see that the servant is often identified as Israel, thus it would be out of place to suddenly use the same metaphor for a completely different person. If you need references to those other verses in Isaiah, I will provide them.

You will have to provide chapter and verse for your other references, since I have no clue what you are referring to.

In the future, when you make a point, try to quote and cite. Otherwise you are assuming your interlocutor is just going to take your word for it, which is kind of prideful.

 

[PruePhillip]

That's a theory - that it came from Sumer. I never have seen any credible evidence to back that up.

Epic of Gilgamesh is Sumerian, isn't it?
Abraham came from Syria, but was born in what would have been called Sumer.

 

[PruePhillip]

Please give me the chapter and verse in Genesis where Jacob/Israel speaks about a future King of his descendents that would last until a "messiah" came.

Genesis 4910
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he to
whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.

The scepter - royalty, meaning a nation and monarchy
not depart - for a long time
from Judah - Jacob's son, the one who offered himself for his brother
ruler's staff between his feet - the duty of care in protecting the Law.
until - there's a time when these things shall end
he - most translations say "Shiloh" , a name for the Messiah
belongs - some translations say the crown and law are his
shall come - prophecy of the Messiah
obedience of the nations - the end of the Jewish system of things leads to the Gentiles obeying the Messiah.

 

[sooda]

Epic of Gilgamesh is Sumerian, isn't it?
Abraham came from Syria, but was born in what would have been called Sumer.

Nope.. Look at a map.. Sumer would have been in Iraq.

 

[sooda]

Genesis 4910
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he to
whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.

The scepter - royalty, meaning a nation and monarchy
not depart - for a long time
from Judah - Jacob's son, the one who offered himself for his brother
ruler's staff between his feet - the duty of care in protecting the Law.
until - there's a time when these things shall end
he - most translations say "Shiloh" , a name for the Messiah
belongs - some translations say the crown and law are his
shall come - prophecy of the Messiah
obedience of the nations - the end of the Jewish system of things leads to the Gentiles obeying the Messiah.

Nope.

Shiloh | Land of the Bible
www.land-bible.com/shiloh


Shiloh. The Biblical Period The site of ancient Shiloh, a city in the Ephraim hill-country, was the religious capital of Israel for 300 years before Jerusalem. Mentioned in the time of the Book of Joshua and Judges, it is north of Beth-El, east of the Beth El–Shechem highway and south of Lebonah in the hill-country of Ephraim (Judg. 21:19).