Why Did The Mormon Church Become Involved In The Proposition 8 Battle?

[gnomon]

The church will not endorse any person/party, however we will support principles. Like pro-life legislation, anti-drug stuff, etc. etc.



there is no official position as far as I know. IMO - everything comes down to our own personal will - not our genes, or how we were raised - option #3 - our own personal choices dictate who we become.

If the Church cannot put forth an official decision regarding the nature of homosexuality and why it exists how can it begin to engage itself politically on the issue? If elders such as Oaks and Wickman and former elders such as Faust speak so much of the issue and the former two admit that they leave the nature/nurture debate to science then how can the Church honestly make any claim without speaking from ignorance?

ELDER OAKS: That’s where our doctrine comes into play. The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.
ELDER WICKMAN: Whether it is nature or nurture really begs the important question, and a preoccupation with nature or nurture can, it seems to me, lead someone astray from the principles that Elder Oaks has been describing here. Why somebody has a same-gender attraction… who can say? But what matters is the fact that we know we can control how we behave, and it is behavior which is important.

Same-Gender Attraction - LDS Newsroom

Both men admit that they do not know why people are homosexual (and I'll leave off other statements for right now to keep the thread from erupting) which implies that they don't know about human sexuality at all. They only state that we can control behavior.

How do they know this?

Also, since some elders state that while a temple marriage is a requirement for "exaltation" it is not absolutely necessary. If it's not absolutely necessary why would the Church, or any LDS, even care about the issue of same sex marriage at all?

 

[linwood]

Why Did The Mormon Church Become Involved In The Proposition 8 Battle?

They want to force everyone to live by their religious edicts through governmental rule of law.

 

[Watchmen]

The Church can meddle in politics AND provide humanitarian service. It's not an either/or situation. TVOR argued that such a dichotomy exists because for every $1 the Church has a choice where to send that money. That might be true, but that begs the question: who gets to decide how a Church spends its money? SSM proponents or the Church? Also, making the argument that autodidact and FatherHeathen did is disingenous, IMO. After all, the Church has spent over 11 Billion Dollars on humanitarian aid. Who are you to demand more?

 

[Watchmen]

If the Church cannot put forth an official decision regarding the nature of homosexuality and why it exists how can it begin to engage itself politically on the issue? If elders such as Oaks and Wickman and former elders such as Faust speak so much of the issue and the former two admit that they leave the nature/nurture debate to science then how can the Church honestly make any claim without speaking from ignorance?



Same-Gender Attraction - LDS Newsroom

Both men admit that they do not know why people are homosexual (and I'll leave off other statements for right now to keep the thread from erupting) which implies that they don't know about human sexuality at all. They only state that we can control behavior.

How do they know this?

Also, since some elders state that while a temple marriage is a requirement for "exaltation" it is not absolutely necessary. If it's not absolutely necessary why would the Church, or any LDS, even care about the issue of same sex marriage at all?

The church does have an official position which you quoted from and linked to.

As for why people are homosexual, is there any conclusive evidence one way or another (nature vs. nurture), or is the answer that we don't know. I don't believe that debate is settled. But guess what, it doesn't matter whether it's nature or nurture.

Can you link me to an elder saying temple marriage is not absolutely necessary for exaltation?

 

[rojse]

families are eternal treasures in heaven. Anything that would rob someone of their eternal family is a horror.

So... you don't agree with the effort to ban gay marriages, then?

 

[themadhair]

But guess what, it doesn't matter whether it's nature or nurture.

It actually does.

 

[McBell]

The Church can meddle in politics AND provide humanitarian service. It's not an either/or situation. TVOR argued that such a dichotomy exists because for every $1 the Church has a choice where to send that money. That might be true, but that begs the question: who gets to decide how a Church spends its money? SSM proponents or the Church? Also, making the argument that autodidact and FatherHeathen did is disingenous, IMO. After all, the Church has spent over 11 Billion Dollars on humanitarian aid. Who are you to demand more?

so you ready to fly off to the flock and claim your victory?

 

[rojse]

The Church can meddle in politics AND provide humanitarian service. It's not an either/or situation. TVOR argued that such a dichotomy exists because for every $1 the Church has a choice where to send that money. That might be true, but that begs the question: who gets to decide how a Church spends its money? SSM proponents or the Church? Also, making the argument that autodidact and FatherHeathen did is disingenous, IMO. After all, the Church has spent over 11 Billion Dollars on humanitarian aid. Who are you to demand more?

But dividing your interests means that you are not fully concentrating on your efforts of either. Funds and time spent politicking is funds and time not spent doing humanitarian work, and vice versa.

Congratulations on the humanitarian work that you do, yes, but who knows what the amount of funding could have been should the LDS have not used their monies to forward their political agendas?

This goes for other religions that try to forward their political agendas, not merely LDS, btw.

 

[rojse]

But guess what, it doesn't matter whether it's [homosexuality] nature or nurture.

Proof that homosexuals were born that way would not matter to you?

 

[Watchmen]

It actually does.

Why???

 

[Watchmen]

so you ready to fly off to the flock and claim your victory?

What does that mean?

J Bryson started this thread and I was hoping it could be a place of real discussion. Do you want to have a real discussion or do you just want to zap your on-liners?

 

[Watchmen]

But dividing your interests means that you are not fully concentrating on your efforts of either. Funds and time spent politicking is funds and time not spent doing humanitarian work, and vice versa.

Congratulations on the humanitarian work that you do, yes, but who knows what the amount of funding could have been should the LDS have not used their monies to forward their political agendas?

This goes for other religions that try to forward their political agendas, not merely LDS, btw.

Who says you can't concentrate fully on multiple areas? I don't buy that.

Also, the "LDS agenda" is furthered by both humanitarian work and politicking. Why should we have to chose one over the other? Because the gay community says so?

 

[McBell]

What does that mean?

J Bryson started this thread and I was hoping it could be a place of real discussion. Do you want to have a real discussion or do you just want to zap your on-liners?

Good point.
Your nonsense mixing of what is said and what you want to have been said are not even worth my one liners.
But guess what?
You still gonna get them.

Now perhaps if you were to start with open HONEST discussion...
But I will not hold me breath.

And yes, I am flat out saying you are dishonest.

Have a nice day.

 

[rojse]

Why???

Would God create people who had a tendancy towards homosexuality if he disagreed with it?

 

[Watchmen]

Proof that homosexuals were born that way would not matter to you?

Of course not. We are products of our genes and our environment. I didn't choose to be straight and gay people didn't choose to be gay. Just because a certain trait is determined by our environment doesn't necessarily mean we have any choice over it. I'm bound by the things that happened my first five years of life just as I am by my genes.

 

[themadhair]

Why???

Because having confirming evidence of natures role would debunk the main thrust of the 'homosexuality is a choice' argument.

 

[Watchmen]

Good point.
Your nonsense mixing of what is said and what you want to have been said are not even worth my one liners.
But guess what?
You still gonna get them.

Now perhaps if you were to start with open HONEST discussion...
But I will not hold me breath.

And yes, I am flat out saying you are dishonest.

Have a nice day.

Then you can be the first on my ignore list. Congratulations.

 

[rojse]

Who says you can't concentrate fully on multiple areas? I don't buy that.

Oh, dear...

The LDS has a limited amount of funds that it gains through donations, and the like. It has a limited amount of people whom are willing to do volunteer work in the church's name. Because of this, the LDS has a choice of how it is going to divide it's resources and volunteers in order to further it's own goals.

Also, the "LDS agenda" is furthered by both humanitarian work and politicking. Why should we have to chose one over the other? Because the gay community says so?

The gay community is decrying the fact that the "LDS agenda" has to include restricting gay rights and banning gay marriages.

 

[rojse]

Then you can be the first on my ignore list. Congratulations.

I suppose the ignore list makes it easier to hear only from those whom you agree with...

 

[McBell]

Then you can be the first on my ignore list. Congratulations.

Spoken as though you think your dishonesty means a lick of swine snot to me.