Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

[TransmutingSoul]

That's okay. Jesus wasn't the Grand Messiah. He was just a little one along the way. Since Jesus, there has been Muhammad and The Bab. But the Big Messiah, the one that Baha'is say has fulfilled all the prophecies of every religion is Baha'u'llah. Israel is back in its homeland and I'm sure every once in awhile you have a few hours of peace... maybe even a whole day. Oh, and did you know the Baha'i headquarters are in Haifa. There must be prophecies that say the Messiah set up shop in Haifa and not Jerusalem? And if you can't find any, I'm sure the Baha'is will show you some.

I see peace on a worldly scale is what the Messiah offered. It is never forced, no Faith has ever been forced by a Messenger. I can see Muhammad implanted in the mind of man, the right for all time, that a person can choose and practice their faith. There is no compulsion in religion.

In the time of Muhammad there were 7 Nations with Ten rulers. The Ottoman empire took hold of the Holy Land, no Jews could come home. It was the year 1260 when the Muslims faced the opportunity to fulfill the promise of Muhammad of a great Nation under One God. The Bab and Baha'u'llah gave their Message in the Middle of the Ottoman Empire and offered Peace to the world.

But men did not want peace, they wanted power and history unfolded. The Bab was executed, Baha'u'llah banished never to return.

In that process many ancient prophecies found fulfillment that can be attributed to no other claimed Messenger. The path was given and is always available, the promise fulfilled. The Most Great Peace will come, but now we still have to find the Lesser Peace. Thus the quandary, who is responsible for that peace?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Then there are verses that say Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives and to Jerusalem. Baha'u'llah came from Persia. Why didn't Jesus plainly say that he, no that the next messenger, would return in the Spirit of God and come from Persia. No, that the next messenger would not be him, that is Jesus, but would be an Arabian. And then the next two after the Arabian would be Persians.

It is all in there CG, it is up to us to find it. Our heart is our guide, our perceived knowledge our downfall.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How about all those things Baha'u'llah wrote? Profound things. How could he write all that stuff? God must have been dictating it to him. But 90% of the writing is fluff. How many times can a person say... "The most effulgent" "The most wonderous" "The pen of this wronged one"? Sorry, but it gets a little tedious to try and find the point to what he was trying to say. It's much easier to have someone else quote a verse or two and then tell me what Baha'u'llah was trying to say. Unless, it is Shoghi Effendi. The master of sentences that go on and on and on and on. Sure it's got some great things in it. But it also has some questionable things too.

That is how Faith is based in reason. That is how one can say with confidence their Faith is not just a whim. Ones reason has to be based in science. One has to test each aspect with heart and mind.

For some the journey is instant, for some it is a lifetime, for some they never start and for others they never finish.

There is a book the Seven Valleys - Link - The Call of the Divine Beloved | Bahá’í Reference Library

The Seven Valleys are described as "An exposition of the mysteries enshrined in the stages of ascent for them that seek to journey unto God, the Almighty, the Ever-Forgiving."

It is said to recognize Gods Messenger one has walked all these valleys, thus that is why I see some jump from peak to peak, life has taken them into these valleys already. I see that is why my wife Found Baha'u'llah by just reading a prayer and I was lucky to be her partner.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What does the Baha'i future look like? All rosy? No wars? No racism? No poverty? All the world will be one? Really? All the other messages from God didn't want that? What was there message? "Come on now be nice. And please stop fighting and listen to me. Love one another. Oh well, maybe next messenger you'll listen." But some do listen, but it's not enough. Then God let's the message get distorted? That's his fault. And it is still his fault. His message isn't clear enough and not brought with enough authority to put it into action.

It will be what we make it. What we have to consider is, what will our choices contribute to the worlds future. How will we be part of that peaceful foundation?

That is why I use we as the journey is more than I.

It may interest you to read this short article on 'Salvation' - Salvation: For One and All

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All religions have their reasons for rejecting all or most of the beliefs of the other religions. One religion might say that they have reincarnated several times and that there are many gods, Another might say that God brought them everlasting laws that they are to obey and that a promised Messiah will come some day to bring peace to the world. Another might say that their prophet is God in the flesh and is part of a Trinity... and that the power of Satan, the devil, has been conquered and sin and death have been defeated. And so on with all the other religions.

Then there is the Baha'i Faith that says that all of you are right... except part of the message from your religion was only temporary. New laws and necessary changes were brought by the next prophet. That parts of the original message has been misinterpreted, distorted, or other things have been added in to the message, thus making it wrong. Things like you who believe in reincarnation and many gods... wrong. You who think your laws are forever, wrong. And you misinterpret the prophecies by taking them too literally and reject your many Messiahs. So again, you're wrong. And you, you make your messenger God? Wrong. You believe in a literal Satan? Wrong.

So to firmly believe in one's religion is to put one's head in the sand? Why say you believe in your religion is it is not firmly? Why not stand up for it when people in other religions tell you that you are wrong? But Baha'is do firmly believe those people are wrong. Yet, believe that those other religions have all come from one God and, originally, were all true?

I'm not buried in the sand. I'm looking around and I see support for the beliefs of most religions. It's kind of like religious truth is relative. It depends on your culture and your religion as to what you believe to be true. So is God relative? Baha'is keep saying things that are symbolic are taken too literal by people in religions. Like the resurrection. Like Satan. Like Creation. Well, is God taken too literal? Is God just a symbolic way of explaining our highest ideals? Is God love, or is Love God?

Baha'is are so concerned over people not recognizing the people they believe are "Messiahs", but they reject the many other religious and spiritual leaders. Even within Judaism, who is a manifestation for the Baha'is? Sometimes Adam and Noah are included. Why? They are part of the Jewish religion. And the story of their lives are rejected, the Creation story and The Flood, yet they were real? And were manifestations? Why? They certainly were not perfect people. They made mistakes. But then so did Abraham and Moses. Two that are always on the Baha'i list of manifestations. As people who brought a new message to mankind from God? It is a continuing Jewish message from God. Showing how the Israelites came to be and how they were God's Chosen people. Did God un-choose them?

But reject the Baha'i Faith? My main problem is with the idea of "progressive" revelation. I don't see the connections, and or progression, from ancient beliefs to modern religions. At least not how Baha'is believe them. I can see how religions that sacrificed to gods for good crops and fertility evolved into believing in one God. But I don't see how the supposed One God was always there and always the one sending prophets with a consistent and progressive message about who he is and what they should do. So, therefore, I doubt and question the Baha'i Faith. And yes, one thing blows it for me. If the Baha'i Faith isn't 100% right and convincing, then how can I believe any of it?

To me that discussion was about doubt. Remember the book the 'Hidden Words'. It is the book that says condenses the inner essence of all past Faith into short quotations to meditate upon.

This is one of those meditations.

"O FLEETING SHADOW! Pass beyond the baser stages of doubt and rise to the exalted heights of certainty. Open the eye of truth, that thou mayest behold the veilless Beauty and exclaim: Hallowed be the Lord, the most excellent of all creators!"

I see that is why the 'Book of Certitude' was revealed, did you every read it?

In that book it explains how people change. "For their agitation was turned into peace, their doubt into certitude, their timidity into courage. Such is the potency of the Divine Elixir, which, swift as the twinkling of an eye, transmuteth the souls of men!"

All the best CG, you can only just keep asking those question, the key is when we ask them, what is it we ask for, where is our mind focused?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

In that process many ancient prophecies found fulfillment that can be attributed to no other claimed Messenger.

Maybe it's time to look at those prophesies again. So from the Bible, what are five of the main prophecies that point to Jesus. From the Bible and the NT, five that point to Muhammad. Then, five that point to The Bab. And, five that point to Baha'u'llah.

Please add in the timeline graph based on Daniel. I don't think I've ever heard anyone try and refute it...Same with the 1260 day prophecy. But make them separate and not part of the five. The timeline and 1260 I think are your strongest prophecies. The rest... I don't remember any real strong ones. I think I felt most were verses out of context, including those about Jesus. So let's see what you got.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Here's a list of non-Messianic Jewish rabbis who said Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah.

What Rabbis Have Said about Isaiah 53 - Hope In Messiah

It was debated, and it was resolved. 'Nuff said.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's okay. Jesus wasn't the Grand Messiah. He was just a little one along the way. Since Jesus, there has been Muhammad and The Bab. But the Big Messiah, the one that Baha'is say has fulfilled all the prophecies of every religion is Baha'u'llah. Israel is back in its homeland and I'm sure every once in awhile you have a few hours of peace... maybe even a whole day. Oh, and did you know the Baha'i headquarters are in Haifa. There must be prophecies that say the Messiah set up shop in Haifa and not Jerusalem? And if you can't find any, I'm sure the Baha'is will show you some.

There is no "little messiah" in the sacred texts of Judaism. Baha'i has its own scriptures that say utterly different things. Different religion.

 

[paarsurrey]

To tell the truth. The Israelites were apostocised at that time. The Israelite teachers, looked down on the Amharets( Flock) Giving Gods table scraps to them. They lacked-LOVE. They followed the Law but fell short on love. They hated Jesus. A mere carpenters son trying to teach them. And his truths exposed the wickedness of mankind-they did not like it. So they had him killed. Then the apostles were killed( John died natural) then the followers were being killed for sharing the truths Jesus brought, House to house, city to city-Luke 10, Acts 20:20.

Israelites/Jews of Jesus time did not follow Moses' Torah in punishing or attempting to kill Jesus. Did they, please?
Anybody, please

Regards

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Israelites/Jews of Jesus time did not follow Moses' Torah in punishing or attempting to kill Jesus. Did they, please?
Anybody, please

Regards

It is recorded that the destruction of the first temple happened for idolatry, violence, and because of lack of charity towards the poor.

The destruction of the second Temple did NOT happen for these reasons. Israel was observing the 613 laws and being faithful in these regards. The problem was baseless hatred by one Jew towards another. It was absolutely out of control. Indeed Jews killed Jews as if they were Romans during the war. Think about it.

As for the execution of Jesus, it was carried out by the Romans for stirring up unrest and claiming to be the messiah, King of the Jews. Romans routinely put such men to death. The gospel accounts seeking to blame the Jews rather than the Romans are attempts to survive in a world where they were being persecuted and killed by the Romans--they could not afford to further provoke them and had to, basically, kiss up to them.

It is said that when we learn to love without reason, that the messiah will come.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe it's time to look at those prophesies again. So from the Bible, what are five of the main prophecies that point to Jesus. From the Bible and the NT, five that point to Muhammad. Then, five that point to The Bab. And, five that point to Baha'u'llah.

Please add in the timeline graph based on Daniel. I don't think I've ever heard anyone try and refute it...Same with the 1260 day prophecy. But make them separate and not part of the five. The timeline and 1260 I think are your strongest prophecies. The rest... I don't remember any real strong ones. I think I felt most were verses out of context, including those about Jesus. So let's see what you got.

I see prophecy is a code. It was written in scripture for our heart to unfold when the answer becomes available, and not before. I see a vary rare few can understand it fully prior to the event, but there are some that partially crack that code.

I will try to give this some substance later today.

Regards Tony

 

[Spartan]

It is recorded that the destruction of the first temple happened for idolatry, violence, and because of lack of charity towards the poor.

It's also recorded that Jerusalem fell because they rejected their Messiah (God):

Luke 19:37–44 As He approached the road leading down from the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of His disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen: 38 “Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” 39 But some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”40 He answered, “I tell you, if they keep silent, the very stones will cry out!” 41 Now when Jesus approached and saw the city, He wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had only known on this day, even you, the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and surround you and close in on you from every side. 44 They will demolish you—you and your children within your walls—and they will not leave within you one stone on top of another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God (Jesus).”

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's also recorded that Jerusalem fell because they rejected their Messiah (God):

Luke 19:37–44 As He approached the road leading down from the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of His disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen: 38 “Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” 39 But some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”40 He answered, “I tell you, if they keep silent, the very stones will cry out!” 41 Now when Jesus approached and saw the city, He wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had only known on this day, even you, the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and surround you and close in on you from every side. 44 They will demolish you—you and your children within your walls—and they will not leave within you one stone on top of another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God (Jesus).”

This is CHRISTIAN teaching, which as you know, we Jews consider completely irrelevant. For one thing, the destruction of the second Temple came a good 40 years after the crucifixion. Your proposal seems a little silly in that light.

 

[Spartan]

This is CHRISTIAN teaching, which as you know, we Jews consider completely irrelevant. For one thing, the destruction of the second Temple came a good 40 years after the crucifixion. Your proposal seems a little silly in that light.

The coming destruction of Jerusalem is a JEWISH teaching, by the Jew Matthew (see below).

You're unfamiliar with the scriptures.

Jesus said the destruction would come upon "this generation" Matthew 23:35-36. In context that's the generation of the Pharisees he was reading the riot act to in his "Seven Woes" speech.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The coming destruction of Jerusalem is a JEWISH teaching, by the Jew Matthew (see below).

You're unfamiliar with the scriptures.

Jesus said the destruction would come upon "this generation" Matthew 23:35-36. In context that's the generation of the Pharisees he was reading the riot act to in his "Seven Woes" speech.

Sorry, but just because a teaching is by a Jew doesn't make it a Jewish teaching. If a Jew writes something of his beliefs as a Buddhist, it is not a Jewish teaching. Same thing if the Jew writes something that is a Christian teaching. The gospel of Matthew is a Christian text, not a Jewish text.

I am not unfamiliar with my own scriptures. and for that matter, I am not even unfamiliar with yours. I'm very into comparative religion, and so far as Christianity goes, people in general should make themselves familiar with the dominant religion of our culture, as I have.

However, what is written in your gospels has no authority for me, no more than, say, the Book of Mormon or the Quran or the Vedas. You can quote to high heaven, and it not authoritative to me. I think that the gospels mix history with mere legend. Jesus did not prophecy the destruction of the Temple. The gospel of Matthew was written AFTER the destruction of the Temple and the words put into Jesus' mouth.

 

[Spartan]

Sorry, but just because a teaching is by a Jew doesn't make it a Jewish teaching. If a Jew writes something of his beliefs as a Buddhist, it is not a Jewish teaching. Same thing if the Jew writes something that is a Christian teaching. The gospel of Matthew is a Christian text, not a Jewish text.

That's your opinion. I don't share it. The New Testament is in part the true fulfillment of Judaism.

I am not unfamiliar with my own scriptures. and for that matter, I am not even unfamiliar with yours. I'm very into comparative religion, and so far as Christianity goes, people in general should make themselves familiar with the dominant religion of our culture, as I have.

Well then the only alternative is that you're forgetful. You apparently were unaware of the "this generation" quote from Matthew 23:35-36

However, what is written in your gospels has no authority for me, no more than, say, the Book of Mormon or the Quran or the Vedas. You can quote to high heaven, and it not authoritative to me. I think that the gospels mix history with mere legend. Jesus did not prophecy the destruction of the Temple. The gospel of Matthew was written AFTER the destruction of the Temple and the words put into Jesus' mouth.

Horse manure.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's your opinion. I don't share it. The New Testament is in part the true fulfillment of Judaism.

It is this sort of arrogance and presumption that gets Christians into trouble with Jews. If you want to know why Jews have bad reactions to Christian missionary efforts, examine statements like this. Judaism is fine the way it is. It needs no improvement.

Well then the only alternative is that you're forgetful. You apparently were unaware of the "this generation" quote from Matthew 23:35-36

The problem being that "this generation" passed away 2000 years ago, and Christians are still waiting for things to happen, such as Jesus return. Not a very smart verse for you to bring up.[/QUOTE]

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe it's time to look at those prophesies again. So from the Bible, what are five of the main prophecies that point to Jesus. From the Bible and the NT, five that point to Muhammad. Then, five that point to The Bab. And, five that point to Baha'u'llah.

Please add in the timeline graph based on Daniel. I don't think I've ever heard anyone try and refute it...Same with the 1260 day prophecy. But make them separate and not part of the five. The timeline and 1260 I think are your strongest prophecies. The rest... I don't remember any real strong ones. I think I felt most were verses out of context, including those about Jesus. So let's see what you got.

CG, I have contemplated answering this, I see this ground has been well covered.

This link lists some of the prophecies - Prophecies from the Bible - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

Regards Tony

 

[Spartan]

It is this sort of arrogance and presumption that gets Christians into trouble with Jews. If you want to know why Jews have bad reactions to Christian missionary efforts, examine statements like this. Judaism is fine the way it is. It needs no improvement.

This is the sort of arrogance and presumption that gets believers of Judaism in trouble with Christians. The New Covenant, etc., is clearly foretold in Jeremiah. Ignoring it and/or making other excuses about that just makes us Christians wonder if you've ever read your own scriptures.

The problem being that "this generation" passed away 2000 years ago, and Christians are still waiting for things to happen, such as Jesus return. Not a very smart verse for you to bring up.

That's just another example of your ignorance about the Christian scriptures.

First of all, Jesus - in Matthew 23:35-36 - is clearly talking about that current generation. "...Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

Second, that's a different generation that Jesus was referring to than he spoke of in Matthew chapter 24. Matthew chapter 24 speaks about a future generation that sees the end time signs.

And then you muddle all that up with a confused reference to Jesus' "imminent" return. So let me help you out with that.

Skeptic: "At Matthew 16:28, Jesus tells his disciples: “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” The people who were standing there all died eventually, and they never saw Jesus return to establish a kingdom."

Response: Mark 9:1 notes, "Until they have seen the kingdom of God come with power;"

First, what is the Kingdom of God? Romans 14:17 answers that: "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

Furthermore, in Luke chapter 11:14, Jesus drove out a demon that had left a man mute. The mute was healed. Then, in Luke 11:20, Jesus said, “But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, THEN THE KINGDOM OF GOD HAS COME TO YOU.”

The Kingdom of God is also Jesus being seen in a Kingdom appearance (more on that later).

When did it come with power? In Acts 1:8: “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

So, the power would come by virtue of the Holy Spirit. When did that happen?

It (the power) happened in Acts chapter two, verses 1-4: "When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them."

After that, Act 5:12 notes the miracles and power of the disciples: "And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people."

But when did some of the disciples see Jesus coming in his kingdom?

"It is that Jesus’ Transfiguration occurs next in the synoptists’ accounts (Mt 17.1-8; Mk 9.2-8; Lk 9.28-36a). Jesus took Peter, James, and John “up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him” (Mt 17.1-3). From a literary perspective, it seems pretty obvious that all three synoptists intended for their readers to understand that Jesus referred to his upcoming Transfiguration when he said some disciples would see him coming in his kingdom before they die."

Did Jesus’ Disciples See “the Son of Man Coming in his Kingdom”?

Glad to help you out!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe it's time to look at those prophesies again. So from the Bible, what are five of the main prophecies that point to Jesus. From the Bible and the NT, five that point to Muhammad. Then, five that point to The Bab. And, five that point to Baha'u'llah.

Please add in the timeline graph based on Daniel. I don't think I've ever heard anyone try and refute it...Same with the 1260 day prophecy. But make them separate and not part of the five. The timeline and 1260 I think are your strongest prophecies. The rest... I don't remember any real strong ones. I think I felt most were verses out of context, including those about Jesus. So let's see what you got.

CG have a look at how some people are now focusing on how end time prophecy focuses on the East.

This person has picked up on how Persia was to play a part.

The Book of Daniel is unsealing - Middle East and Prophecy!

It is also gives the thought that Biblical prophecy is still unfolding. In that regard I remember discussing the idea that prophecy may not be a chronological unfolding of events, they are snippets of time. Like a jigsaw puzzle that needs the pieces put together to see the picture.

Elam is part of that Persian Empire. One Title of Baha'u'llah is the 'Lord of Hosts' and this passage can now be considered;

Jeremiah 49:35 "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will break the bow of Elam, the chief of their might".

The Shah and the religious leaders are who banished Baha'u'llah from the East (fulfilling more prophecy about the East) and Baha'u'llah prophecised their downfall because of their neglect to embrace the new message.

Jeremiah 49:36 "And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come."

Baha'i refugee's have fulfilled this prophecy, but many others are also refugees from Persian origin.

Jeremiah 49:37 "For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies, and before them that seek their life: and I will bring evil upon them, [even] my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them:"

How applicable to current day Iran, where the Bab and Baha'u'llah were unjustly treated and banished from.

Jeremiah 49:38" And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD."

Iran will be the first part of Baha'i pilgrimage in the future. The throne is set in Elam, Persia, Iran. The Government will soon grant freedom to practice Faith for the Baha'i and streams of Baha'i will flow to that throne.

Jeremiah 49:39" But it shall come to pass in the latter days, [that] I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD."

This shows how prophecy is highly veiled in Metephor. Notice how this is applicable to Iran, sanctioned by America and the world. It is no coincident Abdul'baha travelled to America and gave a vision of how America would play a major part in leeding the way to peace.

Now there are the many Visions of Daniel about Elam and the many prophecy specifically fulfilled by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Thus the Mathimatic probability can now begin to be calculated. It becomes far beyond mere coincidence that these prophecy are fulfilled by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony