Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

[Trailblazer]

Unfortunately, Baha'is don't care about that interpretation.

Some of us Bah'ais do not care about ANY interpretation of the Bible because we are logical enough to know that the Bible can be used to prove or disprove anything people want to try to prove or disprove.

And some of us Baha'is know we do not need the Bible to prove who Baha'u'llah was.

The Dispensation of Jesus has been abrogated. How long are people going to hang onto the Bible, till hell freezes over?

 

[firedragon]

So they have to convert 1260 years to lunar years to get to 1222 then add that to 622. It is the year 1260 on the Islamic calendar, but it sure takes some manipulation to make the dates in Revelation work. Especially the 42 month one. Why multiply it by 30 to get 1260 just to divide it into the lunar calendar to get 1222 years in the solar calendar? But, then again, 6 references that the Baha'is use and turn into the 1260 prophecy? Each one referring to a different event, yet they revert back to 622 as when to start the calculation for each one? No consistency.

Its worse than that. They calculated the number of days from 622 to 1844 by multiplying the number of yeas by 365, then divided the number of days they got by 354 to get the number of years to 1,260. Do you see the flaw in that?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Except they didn't prophecy for 1260 solar years. So how many days in 3 1/2 lunar years? 1239. How many days in 42 lunar years? Hmmm? 1239? That can't be right? What happened to 1260? Besides, what we need is 1222 solar years to get to 1844 from 622. How do we do that? We claim the prophecy was all about 1260 lunar years. Then why are we using 30 days per month and 360 days in a year? If we do, why change it? So can you quote the Bible passage that justifies Baha'is to switch from solar to lunar years? That should clear things up.

Boy you are trying to make a very easy calculation into something else

Muhammad Revelation ended by the Bab in the year 1260, simple, that is 1260 years in the Muslim Faith.

CG consider the Old testament gave prophecy that can prove Jesus Christ by the Gregorian calendar and hinted to dates that needed more understanding. The New Testament gave prophecy that can prove Muhammad and the Bab by the Muslim Calendar and then gives us understanding that the Daniel Prophecies can now also be tied to.

That has just about done the subject I would say.

Here is a quote that will suffice;

Revelation 11:3 "And I will appoint my two witnesses (Muhammad and Ali), and they will prophesy for 1,260 days (Years), clothed in sackcloth (Law based faith like the OT)."

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Wrong beast.

Rev13:1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.
4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast​

So we have a dragon and a beast. As I recall one of them the Baha'is say is the Umayyads and the other is the Abbasids. Which one is which, and did one give its power to the other?

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months...
7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
​

The dragon has already had its time. This beast has authority for 42 months. Starting when and ending when? 622 to 1844? No. But Baha'is don't care. 42 months is 1260 lunar years and that's all the matters. But, who is this Lamb? One Baha'is says it is The Bab, but The Bab hasn't been born yet. But another problem, the 1st and 2nd Woes ended two chapters ago. This is in the time of the 3rd Woe. which is supposed to be about Baha'u'llah. But that's a minor problem. Now comes the good stuff.

11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.
12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people.
14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,
17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.
​

So that other beast already had power for 42 months. Now comes another beast. The other beast is the one that had a fatal wound. As I recall Baha'is say that is I believe an Umayyad leader who ruled from Andalucía. So which Islamic leader is this new one? That exercised authority on behalf of the other one? But anyway, this one sets up an image of the other beast and anyone that doesn't worship the image is to be killed. But then, this beast forces people to get a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads. They can't buy or sell without this mark. And what is this mark? It is 666. It has absolutely no relationship to the year 661AD when the first Umayyads leader took over. Unfortunately, it appears Abdul Baha is making things up. Which is fine... except Baha'is claim to have fulfilled all prophecies. Hopefully, you can show me how your interpretation of Revelation is indeed the true one.

CG, I remember @adrian gave you a full explanation on all this. Thus I see there is no point repeating it all. You are aware the explanations are available online. I also know the explanation ties in very well with what actually happened in the history of the Islam Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Its worse than that. They calculated the number of days from 622 to 1844 by multiplying the number of yeas by 365, then divided the number of days they got by 354 to get the number of years to 1,260. Do you see the flaw in that?

Another distraction. I understand why, as it is very convincing, one has to accept or reject the simplicity of it. For a Muslim to accept it would mean they have to consider the Bab's Message as from Allah.

Here is the simple way. @CG Didymus

Regards Tony

 

[sooda]

Wrong beast.

Rev13:1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.
4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast​

So we have a dragon and a beast. As I recall one of them the Baha'is say is the Umayyads and the other is the Abbasids. Which one is which, and did one give its power to the other?

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months...
7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
​

The dragon has already had its time. This beast has authority for 42 months. Starting when and ending when? 622 to 1844? No. But Baha'is don't care. 42 months is 1260 lunar years and that's all the matters. But, who is this Lamb? One Baha'is says it is The Bab, but The Bab hasn't been born yet. But another problem, the 1st and 2nd Woes ended two chapters ago. This is in the time of the 3rd Woe. which is supposed to be about Baha'u'llah. But that's a minor problem. Now comes the good stuff.

11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.
12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people.
14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,
17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.
​

So that other beast already had power for 42 months. Now comes another beast. The other beast is the one that had a fatal wound. As I recall Baha'is say that is I believe an Umayyad leader who ruled from Andalucía. So which Islamic leader is this new one? That exercised authority on behalf of the other one? But anyway, this one sets up an image of the other beast and anyone that doesn't worship the image is to be killed. But then, this beast forces people to get a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads. They can't buy or sell without this mark. And what is this mark? It is 666. It has absolutely no relationship to the year 661AD when the first Umayyads leader took over. Unfortunately, it appears Abdul Baha is making things up. Which is fine... except Baha'is claim to have fulfilled all prophecies. Hopefully, you can show me how your interpretation of Revelation is indeed the true one.

The head of the beast is emperor nero. The mark of the beast is Roman coin or a certificate issued to a Jew who could prove that he had sacrificed to celebrate the emperor's birthday.

 

[firedragon]

Another distraction. I understand why, as it is very convincing, one has to accept or reject the simplicity of it. For a Muslim to accept it would mean they have to consider the Bab's Message as from Allah.

Here is the simple way. @CG Didymus

View attachment 33571

Regards Tony

Great.

Prior to your plea of muslims and conversions, from what date in 622 to which date in 1844 have you done the calculation?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Great.

Prior to your plea of muslims and conversions, from what date in 622 to which date in 1844 have you done the calculation?

The calculation was done from the Bible to confirm that all the 1260 time Prophecies were actually saying 1260 years. That is the end of the calculation. Bible prophecy says the day and hour were not known. We now know the year from 2 sources. 1st from Daniel that shows it as 1844 and 1260 and then from Revelation showing 1260.

I do not need to do a calculation to determine the length of the Islamic Faith because it was the year 1260 when the Bab declared on May 23rd 1844.

It is simple it is firm, it happened and proven to be Biblical. It confirms Muhammed 100% and in doing so we have to accept the Bab's message was the fulfilment of that prophecy.

The time prophecy only opens the 'Gate' to all else, that then confirms the Message of Muhammad in the Bible. The Two Witnesses are Muhammad and Ali. Muhammed is the First Woe. The stories tell of the split of the Muslim faith, the Muslim empire, 7 countries, 10 rulers, the rise and fall of dynasties. Etc

The only loss is to our want to have the only right faith, we find that Allah embraces all and the right Faith is all that has come from Allah, all Allah's Names, all Allah's Messages. Islam finds it confirmation in the Message of Baha'u'llah, which means the 'Glory of God (Allah)'

As you can see, it is now well established in our hearts and you can see why Muslims that have clung to names, have tried and still do try to wipe any reference to the Baha'i Faith from history

Peace, true and lasting peace to you brother and all humamity. The day of God is here.

Yes I am passionate and I have to add, in my opinion, but really it matters not if it is my opinion. It matters if it is the Truth.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

The calculation was done from the Bible to confirm that all the 1260 time Prophecies were actually saying 1260 years. That is the end of the calculation. Bible prophecy says the day and hour were not known. We now know the year from 2 sources. 1st from Daniel that shows it as 1844 and 1260 and then from Revelation showing 1260.

I do not need to do a calculation to determine the length of the Islamic Faith because it was the year 1260 when the Bab declared on May 23rd 1844.

It is simple it is firm, it happened and proven to be Biblical. It confirms Muhammed 100% and in doing so we have to accept the Bab's message was the fulfilment of that prophecy.

The time prophecy only opens the 'Gate' to all else, that then confirms the Message of Muhammad in the Bible. The Two Witnesses are Muhammad and Ali. Muhammed is the First Woe. The stories tell of the split of the Muslim faith, the Muslim empire, 7 countries, 10 rulers, the rise and fall of dynasties. Etc

The only loss is to our want to have the only right faith, we find that Allah embraces all and the right Faith is all that has come from Allah, all Allah's Names, all Allah's Messages. Islam finds it confirmation in the Message of Baha'u'llah, which means the 'Glory of God (Allah)'

As you can see, it is now well established in our hearts and you can see why Muslims that have clung to names, have tried and still do try to wipe any reference to the Baha'i Faith from history

Peace, true and lasting peace to you brother and all humamity. The day of God is here.

Yes I am passionate and I have to add, in my opinion, but really it matters not if it is my opinion. It matters if it is the Truth.

Regards Tony

Thanks for another most vague and irrelevant faith based response. Maybe you do this with all honesty, but its completely useless. I am not trying to insult you, but this is my honest feedback.

I regret engaging again actually. Its frustrating. I will do my own research from your own sources.

I do not need to do a calculation to determine the length of the Islamic Faith because it was the year 1260 when the Bab declared on May 23rd 1844.

BTW, though you claim to believe in Muhammed, and the Quran, you contradict it with your statement, and its evident you dont know the book. You dont have to believe this, but the Quran claims that Islam existed since time immemorial. THATS THE CLAIM. So you claiming Islam began in 622 is bogus in two ways, the Quran, and the actual first contact recorded (true or not) n 610. Bottomline is, you contradict it in two ways. Please read the book and understand it. Your sources are 3rd party or 4th party at best.

I can see that you are a passionate evangelist for the Bahai faith, but the questions I asked are not to be responded to with preaching brother, but with specific responses. I keep begging you.

Peace.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I can see that you are a passionate evangelist for the Bahai faith, but the questions I asked are not to be responded to with preaching brother, but with specific responses. I keep begging you.

I gave you the answer asked.

The 1260 does not Need to be calculated other than knowing it is 1260 years.

It does not matter when it started, what Gregorian year it was. The reference to 1260 is the year that Allah fulfilled the promise. It is also the year 1844 foretold by some Christians.

I am happy to leave it there. Baha'u'llah does advise me not to pour out my heart upon ears that do not want to hear, that is my shortcoming, it's like trying to dam the ocean.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

I gave you the answer asked.

The 1260 does not Need to be calculated other than knowing it is 1260 years.

It does not matter when it started, what Gregorian year it was. The reference to 1260 is the year that Allah fulfilled the promise. It is also the year 1844 foretold by some Christians.

I am happy to leave it there. Baha'u'llah does advise me not to pour out my heart upon ears that do not want to hear, that is my shortcoming, it's like trying to dam the ocean.

Regards Tony

Peace.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

BTW, though you claim to believe in Muhammed, and the Quran, you contradict it with your statement, and its evident you dont know the book. You dont have to believe this, but the Quran claims that Islam existed since time immemorial. THATS THE CLAIM. So you claiming Islam began in 622 is bogus in two ways, the Quran, and the actual first contact recorded (true or not) n 610. Bottomline is, you contradict it in two ways. Please read the book and understand it. Your sources are 3rd party or 4th party at best.

You could have confirmed as I see Islam is eternal. Remember it is you asking for starting points to confirm calculations.

I see Adam as Islam. I see all Messengers now lost in time before Adam as Islam. I see all Messengers yet to come as Islam. The Glory of God is the Light of all Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

You could have confirmed as I see Islam is eternal. Remember it is you asking for starting points to confirm calculations.

I asked for "YOUR" starting point. Not the Islamic starting point. Your starting point contradicts every single logic in the theology discussed.

1. Advent of Islam. According to Quran there was never an "advent".
2. Another advent of Islam Abdul Baha cites. 12 years late.

Contradiction. Both ends.

You will dismiss this by either claiming "its faith" or/and saying "deaf ears".

Great.

 

[kjw47]

Did they not recognize Him as earlier prophesied in the Old and the New Testament an in all past scriptures?

Baha'is see that it has happened, but not as people have expected.

Maybe that humanity as a whole will now finally understand as to how a Messenger of God, is always rejected?

This is a rewording of another thread in this topic.

The vision for this thread embraces a wider audience, all of Humanity. We also have the Dates of AD1844 and AH1260 as a starting point.

Regards Tony

The bible says they hated Jesus. He was killed, as were the majority of apostles and followers. That is strong hatred. The truths he brought exposed their wickedness to Gods view of things. They did not like it. They hate the truth today as well. Jesus said his followers would be hated. Today as well. Truth is rejected for ear tickling untruths. Most claiming to be servants of Jesus, don't even know what he actually taught. Every time I show them, they reject it. Why?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I asked for "YOUR" starting point. Not the Islamic starting point. Your starting point contradicts every single logic in the theology discussed.

1. Advent of Islam. According to Quran there was never an "advent".
2. Another advent of Islam Abdul Baha cites. 12 years late.

Contradiction. Both ends.

You will dismiss this by either claiming "its faith" or/and saying "deaf ears".

Great.

I see that is splitting hairsas creation has always existed. Allah is the creator and each Messenger in this material world is an advent.

We all own death ears.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

I see that is splitting hairsas creation has always existed. Allah is the creator and each Messenger in this material world is an advent.

We all own death ears.

Regards Tony

Not according to the Quran. So you dont follow that book. In that case, dont claim it.

Also, your biggest arguments in the past 3 posts has been

1. Splitting hairs
2. Deaf ears

 

[CG Didymus]

Some of us Bah'ais do not care about ANY interpretation of the Bible because we are logical enough to know that the Bible can be used to prove or disprove anything people want to try to prove or disprove.

And some of us Baha'is know we do not need the Bible to prove who Baha'u'llah was.

The Dispensation of Jesus has been abrogated. How long are people going to hang onto the Bible, till hell freezes over?

I think you've made it clear what you think of the Bible. But why do Baha'is use the prophecies in the Bible? And then interpret them? It only shows that even Baha'is can prove anything they want to prove about the Bible. And ignore the things that don't suit their agenda.

 

[CG Didymus]

Its worse than that. They calculated the number of days from 622 to 1844 by multiplying the number of yeas by 365, then divided the number of days they got by 354 to get the number of years to 1,260. Do you see the flaw in that?

Sure there are 1260 lunar years between 622 and 1844. But there is only 1222 solar years. So were the prophecies in lunar or solar years? They claim it was both and see no problem with what they do.

I haven't studied the Daniel prophecy they use to get to 1844, and I haven't read anything from any Christian that tries to refute it. Do you know anything about that one?

 

[CG Didymus]

Boy you are trying to make a very easy calculation into something else

Muhammad Revelation ended by the Bab in the year 1260, simple, that is 1260 years in the Muslim Faith.

CG consider the Old testament gave prophecy that can prove Jesus Christ by the Gregorian calendar and hinted to dates that needed more understanding. The New Testament gave prophecy that can prove Muhammad and the Bab by the Muslim Calendar and then gives us understanding that the Daniel Prophecies can now also be tied to.

That has just about done the subject I would say.

Here is a quote that will suffice;

Revelation 11:3 "And I will appoint my two witnesses (Muhammad and Ali), and they will prophesy for 1,260 days (Years), clothed in sackcloth (Law based faith like the OT)."

Regards Tony

How many solar years between 622 and 1844? The answer is not 1260. How many days in a lunar month? It is not 30. How many days in a lunar year? It is not 360. Can you show me the Bible verse that you use to justify switching from solar to lunar years?

Baha'is are all over the place with their "interpretations". Is the "Lamb that was Slain" Jesus or The Bab? Is the 7th angel Baha'u'llah? 7 angel blow trumpets and bad things happen. An eagle says "Woe" three times about what is going to happen when the last 3 angels get ready to blow their trumpets. If the 1st Woe is about Muhammad, why aren't the 2 witnesses mentioned then? Why a couple of chapters later during the time of a different Woe?

Nothing is easy about this. Baha'is haven't and can't give a sensible interpretation of any of this, because they aren't infallible. They are just guessing. But then, when Abdul Baha' gives his interpretation, they are just as bad. And he only interprets a couple of chapters. I posted several verses all about the 3 Woes. Did you read them? The Umayyads and Abbasids are not a good fit into the verses that talk about the beasts. No, none of this is easy. If Baha'is want to be friends with all people, from all religions in love and unity... great. But don't go saying that all prophecies have been fulfilled and then not have an explanation for all the things written in Revelation.

 

[CG Didymus]

Its worse than that. They calculated the number of days from 622 to 1844 by multiplying the number of yeas by 365, then divided the number of days they got by 354 to get the number of years to 1,260. Do you see the flaw in that?

I don't know why I keep asking Tony and the other Baha'is. How does Islam interpret the 2 Witnesses in Revelation? How does Islam interpret the 3 Woes? How does Islam interpret the 1260 days and the 42 months. And, what about the beasts and dragon and the 666? Does any of the Baha'i interpretation make sense or fit in with Islamic interpretations?