Why Did We Evolve the Notion of God?

[meogi]

Too simplistic.

Simple or not, you're not presenting any other mechanisms.

1) Where did we get the idea in the first place?

Where do we get any idea in the first place? The idea of the divine likely came about because it gives us control over that which we have no control over; mainly that which we observe, nature.

2) Why did we believe it was reality,

Because it allowed us to control reality. To define it.

With that, you've left the realm of biology, and entered that of sociology.

rather than just a story?

A story is a way to teach. That's all. Teach your kids how the world works as you understand it.

3) What made it so advantageous as to be universal?

Well, for one thing it allows large groups of people to consort together under the same 'reality.' But back when we were first coming up with the idea, it reduced stress in our lives (which plays a larger impact on our bodies, genetically, than you probably think).

I wish I hadn't lent my copy of Genome, autobiography of a species in 23 chapters by Matt Ridley to a friend so I could quote some stuff.

 

[Storm]

Simple or not, you're not presenting any other mechanisms.

I've spent this entire thread talking about how we can't ignore the reality of mystical experiences.

Where do we get any idea in the first place? The idea of the divine likely came about because it gives us control over that which we have no control over; mainly that which we observe, nature.
Because it allowed us to control reality. To define it.

The idea of God doesn't give us any control.

A story is a way to teach. That's all. Teach your kids how the world works as you understand it.

Exactly. If God were just made up as a way to explain things, nobody would believe it.

Well, for one thing it allows large groups of people to consort together under the same 'reality.' But back when we were first coming up with the idea, it reduced stress in our lives (which plays a larger impact on our bodies, genetically, than you probably think).

I agree that stress reduction probably played a part in why it was selected for, but I don't think it was the only factor.

 

[Magic Man]

Exactly. If God were just made up as a way to explain things, nobody would believe it.

I have to disagree here. I think a lot of people believe simply because they want to. I believe that there is no God because that's what makes sense to me. If I lived 3,000 years ago, and someone brought up the idea of a god making it rain, I might believe that because it made sense at the time. I think many people need more than a way to explain things, but there are others who don't.

On the other hand, I agree with your assessment that it probably started with a mystical experience, and evolved from there. But some people need an experience like that to believe, and some don't.

 

[Storm]

I have to disagree here. I think a lot of people believe simply because they want to.

Yes, now. Now that God is so firmly entrenched in our collective consciousness, it's easy to believe. But we're talking about when the idea first popped up.

If I lived 3,000 years ago, and someone brought up the idea of a god making it rain, I might believe that because it made sense at the time. I think many people need more than a way to explain things, but there are others who don't.

How would it make sense? Wouldn't your first response be "How?" Mine would.

It just gets my goat when people assume that our ancestors were too dumb to know the difference between reality and make-believe.

 

[Wandered Off]

I think a lot of people believe simply because they want to.

Could you, for a moment, want to believe in unicorns and then, because you wanted to, really believe it?

 

[sandandfoam]

We evolved the notion of God because we are rational and we need an explanation. I also think our ancestors saw God everywhere. Nature as Theophany, makes sense to me.
I have wondered is there a correlation between not seeing God and urbanization ?

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, now. Now that God is so firmly entrenched in our collective consciousness, it's easy to believe. But we're talking about when the idea first popped up.


How would it make sense? Wouldn't your first response be "How?" Mine would.

It just gets my goat when people assume that our ancestors were too dumb to know the difference between reality and make-believe.

I don't think they were dumb, but I think without all of the knowledge about the world we have now, it was easier for them to believe such things as gods. My first response would be "How?", but maybe that's why I'm an atheist. It seems to be well-known that the less knowledge you have, the more you're willing to believe what someone else tells you. I'm sure there were people who didn't believe, but they were probably the ones using it to control others.

As to your point about this not being the first cause, I'll agree there. There had to be something that started it, I think, but this seems to have been a factor in why it was accepted when it was brought up.

 

[Storm]

I don't think they were dumb, but I think without all of the knowledge about the world we have now, it was easier for them to believe such things as gods. My first response would be "How?", but maybe that's why I'm an atheist. It seems to be well-known that the less knowledge you have, the more you're willing to believe what someone else tells you. I'm sure there were people who didn't believe, but they were probably the ones using it to control others.

As to your point about this not being the first cause, I'll agree there. There had to be something that started it, I think, but this seems to have been a factor in why it was accepted when it was brought up.

"How?" would be the first response of the average 3-year-old, too.

 

[meogi]

I've spent this entire thread talking about how we can't ignore the reality of mystical experiences.

Appologies, I havn't read the entirety of the thread.

I know I can ignore the 'reality' of mystical experiences, because I've taken some pretty crazy drugs. But I'm not sure how you're defining mystical.

The idea of God doesn't give us any control.

Again, appologies, I didn't type that correctly. If you look at my previous quote, there's the word assemblance in there.

Exactly. If God were just made up as a way to explain things, nobody would believe it.

Not today. But primitive humans? That is what we're talking about, right? Origins and such?

[ninja edit]To put a timeline into perspective, I'm assuming we're talking about before the dawn of civilization. Greater than 20,000 years ago. More likely around 500,000 to 1 million.

I agree that stress reduction probably played a part in why it was selected for, but I don't think it was the only factor.

Agreed, but it is the only biological reason I can think of.

 

[sandandfoam]

It seems to be well-known that the less knowledge you have, the more you're willing to believe what someone else tells you.

Our ancestors had a huge amount of knowledge, perhaps far more than you and I but their knowledge was different to ours, it pertained more to the natural world than technology. I can envisage an argument that suggests their knowledge was superior to ours, after all how long would you or I survive if someone didn't provide our food ?

 

[Magic Man]

Could you, for a moment, want to believe in unicorns and then, because you wanted to, really believe it?

It takes a little more than that. I grew up Catholic, and believed because that's the way I was taught. When I started to question things, I started to not believe. For a long time, though, I couldn't shake my basic belief in God, even though my head told me it was wrong. When something is that indoctrinated, it takes a lot to get rid of it, and many people, I think, end up finding it easier and more enjoyable to stop questioning and just succumb to belief.

 

[sandandfoam]

It takes a little more than that. I grew up Catholic, and believed because that's the way I was taught. When I started to question things, I started to not believe. For a long time, though, I couldn't shake my basic belief in God, even though my head told me it was wrong. When something is that indoctrinated, it takes a lot to get rid of it, and many people, I think, end up finding it easier and more enjoyable to stop questioning and just succumb to belief.

As an aside could you envisage yourself thinking your way through atheism or is it settled ?

 

[Escéptico]

It just gets my goat when people assume that our ancestors were too dumb to know the difference between reality and make-believe.

Well, they didn't have any notion of randomness, did they? Ancient peoples were emphatic in their belief that event was inextricably linked with intention.

We call this superstition now, but it certainly played a role in the evolution of folk religions: human behavior is correlated with some natural phenomenon, therefore the suspicion arises that the behavior caused the phenomenon. If the perceived correlation continues, the behavior is repeated and the presumption of causation is reinforced.

The revolution in thought that Pascal and Fermat effected with probability theory was one of the biggies. Not until the 17th century AD were people able to measure correlation in a more objective way. Statistics is one of the best tools we have for creating and testing more reliable models of reality.

 

[Magic Man]

Our ancestors had a huge amount of knowledge, perhaps far more than you and I but their knowledge was different to ours, it pertained more to the natural world than technology. I can envisage an argument that suggests their knowledge was superior to ours, after all how long would you or I survive if someone didn't provide our food ?

I understand. I wouldn't say they had more knowledge than us, just different knowledge. I think we have a better understanding of how things in nature work from a technical standpoint.

I understand your point, S, but then how do you explain so many people just believing what others tell them? Do you think that everyone who believes in religion has had a mystical experience?

 

[Magic Man]

As an aside could you envisage yourself thinking your way through atheism or is it settled ?

If you meant thinking my to religion, then the answer is no. Religion is not something you "think yourself into". I don't rule out the possibility of my conversion to a religion, but it wouldn't be based on reasoning my way there.

 

[Willamena]

We evolved the notion of God because we are rational and we need an explanation.

I think, rather, that we evolved the notion of God because we are rational and realized an explanation ("realize" as in to make real). That, of course, requires understanding.

What it is that is understood, though, is the point of contention between all beliefs.

 

[sandandfoam]

Statistics is one of the best tools we have for creating and testing more reliable models of reality.

Is it ?
If my experience of reality is only experienced by a statistically insignificant proportion of the population is it not real ?
I think your view rests on belief in an objective reality that I too am coming to believe in but have yet to experience

 

[Willamena]

Well, they didn't have any notion of randomness, did they? Ancient peoples were emphatic in their belief that event was inextricably linked with intention.

Perhaps that still is the notion of "randomness" today.

 

[Wandered Off]

I think your view rests on belief in an objective reality that I too am coming to believe in but have yet to experience

Seems to me an objective reality cannot ever be experienced. I see experience as always subjective.

 

[Magic Man]

Seems to me an objective reality cannot ever be experienced. I see experience as always subjective.

Very true. I've said before that I think there is an objective reality, but I know that I can never experience it because once I experience something, it is part of my subjective reality.

Not that that makes it any less real.