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Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
SeekingAllTruth said:
I go back to my original question:

If God really wanted us to believe His son was Jesus Christ who was the savior of mankind, then why didn't He make sure the original gospels were preserved? Why don't we have gospels SIGNED by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that can be reliably dated to within 10 years of Jesus so that there would be no doubt whatsoever they were genuine and completely in agreement as to the details???????

Instead we have a hodgepodge of conflicting accounts of Jesus birth and death and genealogy written decades to a century and possibly longer afterward by anonymous Greek scholars who obviously were not eyewitnesses and had no sources upon which to base their accounts. Nor does a single historian in Jesus' time or within 50 years of his death mention Jesus or Paul or the 12 apostles.

It seems God did a real crappy job of giving us reliable proof for Jesus. This says to me that God really doesn't give a damn whether or not we believe in Jesus. That's the only logical conclusion I can come to, especially with regard to all the conflicting dates and guesswork for when the gospels were written and who wrote them.
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There are records of accurate early gospels. The Magdelan fragments don't have conflicting dates and guesswork and we know their authors. They were written at earlier dates than other gospels and their historical details agree with the Bible writers calling Jesus, God. https://breakpoint.org/a-fictional-messiah/

They dismiss the accounts of His miracles and resurrection as products of the oral tradition. But if the Gospels really were written shortly after Jesus walked the roads of Galilee, as evangelicals believe, then there wasn’t time for a fanciful oral tradition to spring up. Even more exciting is the fact that when the Magdalen manuscript refers to Jesus, it used the word Lord, translated from a Greek term that was reserved exclusively as a reference to God, proving that the earliest Christians did believe that Jesus was God Himself. Christians shouldn’t be surprised when historical documents authenticate biblical truth. As historian Paul Johnson writes, “In the long term, Christian truth and historical truth must coincide.” Thanks to the decades of liberal teaching, many people today aren’t sure whether the New Testament is trustworthy. That’s why these Magdalen fragments are so important. They provide solid evidence for the historicity of Scripture and bring the historical reality of Christ into sharper focus than ever before.
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Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Skywalker said:
Without Jesus being God, he couldn't pay the price of sin, because sin has the penalty of infinite separation from God, and we are finite beings. How is that a non sequitur?
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You need to support this claim. You are now contradicting yourself when you claim that your God is omniscient and omnipotent.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
This isn’t a theological construct. It’s loose opinion. Where, for example do you get the concept that the penalty for sin is “infinite?” Where is your argument that “dying” makes him the Messiah? You’ve pulled out some disparate texts out of context, but you haven’t shown at all that this was in the minds of those who wrote them.

You’ll have to do much, much better.
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What would be the purpose of Jesus dying for our sins if the penalty for sin is finite? If God isn't a trinity, can we be saved? The answer is no. | carm.org

If God isn’t a trinity, can we be saved?
by Matt Slick | Aug 25, 2009 | Questions, Salvation

If God were not a Trinity, we could not be saved. The reason is simple. Our sins are against infinite and holy God; and we are, therefore worthy of infinite punishment. Sins are related to the one offended.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
Not germane to my post. I said that prophecy was NOT about future prediction.
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There are different purposes of prophecy. One purpose of prophecy is about future prediction. Are there modern-day prophets or is there a need for prophets today?

Are there modern-day prophets or is there a need for prophets today?
by Matt Slick | Mar 19, 2011 | Questions, Other

Are there modern-day prophets or is there a need for prophets today?

In the New Testament, the gift of the office of prophet was a temporary one granted by God for the purpose of building His Church. Contrary to the apostles, who had broad ministries, these men had localized ministries within local churches, as we see illustrated in such places as Acts 11:21-28 and Acts 13:1.

Scripture shows us that the prophets of the New Testament had two primary purposes:

  • They were gifted men given to the Church and appointed by God (Eph. 4:11, 1 Cor. 12:28) for the purpose of helping to lay the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20).
  • They, like the apostles, received God’s revelation (Eph. 3:5) and truth and proclaimed it to their churches. It is important to remember that the early Church did not have a completed Bible, so God granted this revelation for the purpose of teaching His message to the Church. The New Testament prophets also spoke forth and taught the apostles’ doctrine. Everything taught by these prophets had to be consistent with the teaching of the apostles (1 Cor. 14:36-37).
So, are prophets still needed today? Looking at the two functions listed above, we can see that the office of prophet is one that is no longer necessary and has ceased within the Church because:

  • The foundation of the Church was laid long ago.And
  • God’s revealed Word was completed with the close of the New Testament canon.
The Church’s foundation does not need to be laid again, and there is no need for further revelation beyond what God has provided for us in His complete Word, the Bible. Today we are blessed to have Scripture as our complete and final authority in all things (2 Tim. 3:16-17). If someone now claims to have received a “special revelation,” we must test it against Scripture. If it is contrary to the Word of God, then it must be rejected. If it is consistent with Scripture, then we have to ask why an “extra” word was necessary if its truth is already contained in the Bible. So while we always need men who are willing to proclaim boldly the Word of God as contained in Scripture (as pastors, teachers, and evangelists), there is no need for the office of “prophet” as it existed in the New Testament.


Are there modern-day prophets or is there a need for prophets today?
by Matt Slick | Mar 19, 2011 | Questions, Other

Are there modern-day prophets or is there a need for prophets today?

In the New Testament, the gift of the office of prophet was a temporary one granted by God for the purpose of building His Church. Contrary to the apostles, who had broad ministries, these men had localized ministries within local churches, as we see illustrated in such places as Acts 11:21-28 and Acts 13:1.

Scripture shows us that the prophets of the New Testament had two primary purposes:

  • They were gifted men given to the Church and appointed by God (Eph. 4:11, 1 Cor. 12:28) for the purpose of helping to lay the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20).
  • They, like the apostles, received God’s revelation (Eph. 3:5) and truth and proclaimed it to their churches. It is important to remember that the early Church did not have a completed Bible, so God granted this revelation for the purpose of teaching His message to the Church. The New Testament prophets also spoke forth and taught the apostles’ doctrine. Everything taught by these prophets had to be consistent with the teaching of the apostles (1 Cor. 14:36-37).
So, are prophets still needed today? Looking at the two functions listed above, we can see that the office of prophet is one that is no longer necessary and has ceased within the Church because:

  • The foundation of the Church was laid long ago.And
  • God’s revealed Word was completed with the close of the New Testament canon.
The Church’s foundation does not need to be laid again, and there is no need for further revelation beyond what God has provided for us in His complete Word, the Bible. Today we are blessed to have Scripture as our complete and final authority in all things (2 Tim. 3:16-17). If someone now claims to have received a “special revelation,” we must test it against Scripture. If it is contrary to the Word of God, then it must be rejected. If it is consistent with Scripture, then we have to ask why an “extra” word was necessary if its truth is already contained in the Bible. So while we always need men who are willing to proclaim boldly the Word of God as contained in Scripture (as pastors, teachers, and evangelists), there is no need for the office of “prophet” as it existed in the New Testament.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
Many Christians believe that they are. They of course fail if one treats them as future predictions as @Skywalker has shown.
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Jesus fulfilled predictions of the Messiah having a forerunner and being rejected by Israel. It's not certain that they weren't put there so Jesus would look like the Messiah also means it's not certain that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

  • [*]His messenger sent before Him.
    Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
    Malachi 3:1, Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Isaiah 40:3, The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

    Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
    Matthew 3:1-3, In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, and saying, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    Matthew 3:11 (John speaking), I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worth to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

    When the Pharisees asked who he was, John explained in John 1:23, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias."




    [*]Rejected by Israel.
    Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
    Isaiah 8:14, And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

    Psalm 118:22-23, The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

    Isaiah 28:16, Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation...

    Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
    I Corinthians 1:22-24, For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jew a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

    Read Jesus' parable of the householder from Matthew 21:33-46:

    33. Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
    34. And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
    35. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
    36. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
    37. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
    38. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
    39. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
    40. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
    41. They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
    42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
    44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
    45. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
    46. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
    See also the parable of the marriage feast found in Matthew 22:1-14.

    There are Jews that believe in Jesus as Messiah. However, it is very clear that today, Israel, as a nation, has rejected Christ.
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S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
Less beer — more critical thinking is called for.
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Jesus could not have died for our sins if he was an archangel or a good man or a prophet. Why would God punish someone for eternity for temporary sins?

when we sin, we sin against the Holy King of the entire universe; and the penalty is eternal damnation.

There is no way that mere humans can satisfy the infinite judgment of a holy God because we are finite and sinners. We are not capable of doing enough good or being good enough to make things right. The only one left who is capable of performing a perfect act of atonement is God himself. Therefore, God the Son came down in the form of Jesus and bore the wrath of God the Father. But this could not be possible if God were not a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The second person of the Trinity became a man (John 1:1, 14; Phil. 2:5-8) and was subject to the Law (Gal. 4:4), bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), and took our punishment (Isaiah 53:4-6). Without God being a Trinity this could not be possible; and there could be no full and complete incarnation which would make the sacrifice of Jesus of infinite value, which in turn would satisfy the judgment of an infinite God.
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Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
sojourner said:
“Nuh-uh” isn’t a sufficient rebuttal.

Yes and of course. There is always a need for those called to speak truth.
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Unless a claim is made without any valid support, as our protagonists cannot seem to do. Occasionally I will put in the effort to show how he is wrong, but it is really not worth my time. Most of the time his poor arguments are refuted with Hitchen's Razor.
 
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