Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[SeekingAllTruth]

Jesus sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane. There didn't have to be his disciples eye witnessing it-it was recorded by them and they witnessed him after he came back to life. Why did Jesus sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane? | GotQuestions.org

What you're saying doesn't make sense. Who was in the garden when Jesus sweated blood? Who saw it so it could be written?

 

[Skywalker]

That's just a way to whitewash God of all blame for His sending people to hell. God is the one who says, "Depart from me into eternal flames." If that's not sending someone to hell I don't know what is.

Hell is being alone and separated from God, not about burning. Is hell literally a place of fire and brimstone? | GotQuestions.org

Is hell literally a place of fire and brimstone?

Question: "Is hell literally a place of fire and brimstone?"

Answer: By raining down fire and brimstone upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, God not only demonstrated how He felt about overt sin, but He also launched an enduring metaphor. After the events of Genesis 19:24, the mere mention of fire, brimstone, Sodom or Gomorrah instantly transports a reader into the context of God’s judgment. Such an emotionally potent symbol, however, has trouble escaping its own gravity. This fiery image can impede, rather than advance, its purpose. A symbol should show a similarity between two dissimilar entities. Fire and brimstone describes some of what hell is like—but not all of what hell is.

The word the Bible uses to describe a burning hell—Gehenna—comes from an actual burning place, the valley of Gehenna adjacent to Jerusalem on the south. Gehenna is an English transliteration of the Greek form of an Aramaic word, which is derived from the Hebrew phrase “the Valley of (the son of) Hinnom.” In one of their greatest apostasies, the Jews (especially under kings Ahaz and Manasseh) passed their children through the fires in sacrifice to the god Molech in that very valley (2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chronicles 33:6; Jeremiah 32:35). Eventually, the Jews considered that location to be ritually unclean (2 Kings 23:10), and they defiled it all the more by casting the bodies of criminals into its smoldering heaps. In Jesus’ time this was a place of constant fire, but more so, it was a refuse heap, the last stop for all items judged by men to be worthless. When Jesus spoke of Gehennahell, He was speaking of the city dump of all eternity. Yes, fire was part of it, but the purposeful casting away—the separation and loss—was all of it.

In Mark 9:43 Jesus used another powerful image to illustrate the seriousness of hell. “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.” For most readers, this image doesescape its own gravity—in spite of the goriness! Few believe that Jesus wants us literally to cut off our own hand. He would rather that we do whatever is necessary to avoid going to hell, and that is the purpose of such language—to polarize, to set up an either/or dynamic, to compare. Since the first part of the passage uses imagery, the second part does also, and therefore should not be understood as an encyclopedic description of hell.

In addition to fire, the New Testament describes hell as a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13). The very variety of hell’s descriptors argues against applying a literal interpretation of any particular one. For instance, hell’s literal fire could emit no light, since hell would be literally dark. Its fire could not consume its literal fuel (persons!) since their torment is non-ending. Additionally, the gradation of punishments within hell also confounds literalness. Does hell’s fire burn Hitler more fiercely than an honest pagan? Does he fall more rapidly in the abyss than another? Is it darker for Hitler? Does he wail and gnash more loudly or more continually than the other? The variety and symbolic nature of descriptors do not lessen hell, however—just the opposite, in fact. Their combined effect describes a hell that is worse than death, darker than darkness, and deeper than any abyss. Hell is a place with more wailing and gnashing of teeth than any single descriptor could ever portray. Its symbolic descriptors bring us to a place beyond the limits of our language—to a place far worse than we could ever imagine.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Jesus talked more about hell than heaven. Universalism is not in the Bible. What is hell? It is eternal fire and punishment for non-Christians | carm.org

>>>>>>Some say that Jesus talked about hell more than heaven and so we should do the same. Rubbish! Jesus did not threaten people into the Kingdom.

Does Jesus talk about Hell more than Heaven?

 

[Skywalker]

What you're saying doesn't make sense. Who was in the garden when Jesus sweated blood? Who saw it so it could be written?

Luke the physician wrote about Jesus sweating blood in the garden. Who Wrote The Gospel Of Luke & Acts? | Reasons for Jesus

By Brian Chilton| In this article, we consider the Third Gospel, the Gospel of Luke. Who wrote the Gospel? What clues do we have from the internal and external evidence, the date, and the location and audience?

Proposed Author by Tradition
Traditionally, Luke is proposed as the author of the Third Gospel. Luke was a physician and an associate of Paul the apostle (Col. 4:14; Philemon 24).

Internal Evidence
Internally, a few distinctive markers are found.

1. First and most noticeably, the author of the Third Gospel writes to one “Theophilus” (Acts 1:3)[1] and seeks to provide an “orderly sequence” (Acts 1:3) of the life of Jesus, after having had “carefully investigated everything from the very first” (1:3) according to what the “original eyewitnesses and servants of the word handed down” (Acts 1:2). From this information, one can gather that the author was not an eyewitness of the events of Jesus’s life. But, the author had access to those who had.

2. Second, the author of the Third Gospel also authored the book of Acts. The level of detail and precision, writing style, the similar address to Theophilus, as well as the connective clause in the first of Acts connects the two works to the same author.[2]

3. Third, the level of Greek used in both the Third Gospel and the book of Acts is highly advanced. Having taken biblical Greek courses, I have found that a person learns first from the Gospel of Mark and John before tackling the Gospel of Luke. Due to the high degree of Greek employed in the Third Gospel and the book of Acts, one can deduce that the author is quite advanced in his education.

4. Fourth, the author focuses on Jesus’s ministry to the Gentiles and to the outcasts of society. The Sermon on the Plain is preserved in the Third Gospel. There the author notes that people came to hear Jesus from all around. The author notes that many of the people who heard Jesus were Gentiles from the region of Tyre and Sidon (Luke 6:17).

5. Fifth, the author describes medical matters far more and to a greater degree than the other Gospels. In Luke 4:38, Luke is sure to note that Simon Peter’s mother-in-law suffered from a high fever. In Luke 14:2, the author describes a man’s body that had “swollen with fluid.” Such details indicate a man who has an eye for medical matters.

6. Sixth, because of the author’s involvement with the book of Acts, one can deduct from the “we passages” that the author was a close associate of the apostle Paul. For instance, the author of Acts writes that “When it was decided that we were to sail to Italy, they handed over Paul and some other prisoners to a centurion named Julius, of the Imperial Regiment” (Acts 27:1).

7. Finally, the author had access to a great wealth of Jesus’s teachings that are not found in the other Gospels. For instance, it is only in the Gospel of Luke that one reads the Parable of the Good Samaritan and the Parable of the Lost Son. The author would have needed to have access to multiple eyewitnesses to be able to possess such knowledge and to be able to construct the orderly account that he did.

All in all, the internal evidence strongly points to someone of the caliber of Luke, the physician. Luke would hold the educational background, the eyewitness access, the resources, and the training needed to construct both the Third Gospel and the book of Acts. So far as I am concerned, I do not believe there are any other contenders.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Hell is being alone and separated from God, not about burning. Is hell literally a place of fire and brimstone? | GotQuestions.org

You're in the distinct minority with that.The vast majority of Christians believe hell is a place of fire and torment.

 

[Skywalker]

>>>>>>Some say that Jesus talked about hell more than heaven and so we should do the same. Rubbish! Jesus did not threaten people into the Kingdom.

Does Jesus talk about Hell more than Heaven?

Jesus talked more about hell and heaven, because he came to save us from hell. Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

Jesus did not soften the truth about Hell and eternal punishment in an attempt to make His message more palatable to accommodate culture. Rather, Jesus warned about Hell more than all of the prophets and apostles combined.

Jesus did this and gave His life for the sins of the world, because He cares deeply for us and does not will that any would perish (Mathew 18:14). His heart truly does break for those who refuse to follow Him (Matthew 23:37-39). Jesus warned about Hell because He doesn’t want anyone to choose to go there. He warned about Hell because He knew well that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge (Proverbs 1:7) and wisdom (Psalm 111:10).

 

[Skywalker]

You're in the distinct minority with that.The vast majority of Christians believe hell is a place of fire and torment.

Hell is about being separated eternally from God in outer darkness. John 3:19

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Since darkness is what people want, they will be given it for eternity. God won't force people into heaven against their will.

 

[dybmh]

Why would his motives be pure if he wasn't God?

You're not making sense. Anyone can have pure motives.

Psychologists find the idea that Jesus had mental illness doubtful, and its questionable if a person's motives are pure even then-troubled is a more accurate term.

I'm not saying anything about mental illness. I'm not sure why you're bringing this up.

 

[Skywalker]

And sometimes they don't.

A judge who doesn't punish is not a just judge. Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

What kind of deterrent would it be to tell a group of potential serial killers, rapists and child molesters that they need not worry about repenting or going to prison for the rest of their lives, or suffering the death penalty because they have already been forgiven? If this fact holds true, all they would need to do is tell the judge they will receive his love later. However, if they still end up in prison for some reason, they still can – on their own accord later – change their minds and the judge would freely let them out and even pay for an awesome vacation to the Bahamas or another island paradise! What a deal!

Logically, this kind of mindset would only encourage criminals to continue on with their wicked and perverse thoughts and deeds. However, Rob Bell is offering this same type of counterfeit hope of post mortem salvation, which is absolutely foreign to the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ. Tragically, this deceiving and licentious doctrine will prove to be a powerful satanic attack that will actually help to swell the population of Hell. Many of those who might otherwise repent, will sadly buy into Bell’s lie and take his false doctrine to its practical conclusions. Wrong doctrine leads to wrong living and could potentially lead many straight to Hell for all eternity.

Rob Bell is promising his vast audience eternal life, even if they choose to continue in their sin and earthly rebellion against God. This is essentially the false doctrine that God rebuked the false prophets of spreading in the days of Ezekiel:

“And you have encouraged the wicked by promising them life, even though they continue in their sins.” –Ezekiel 13:22b

 

[Skywalker]

You're not making sense. Anyone can have pure motives.

I'm not saying anything about mental illness. I'm not sure why you're bringing this up.

CS Lewis said either Jesus was a liar, lunatic, or God. If Jesus was a liar or a lunatic his motives couldn't have been pure. At best he would have been a troubled person.

 

[Skywalker]

I don't have to accept a gift if I don't want it. I told you, the whole "Jesus died for my sins" thing is just nonsense far as I'm concerned.

God won't force people to accept his free gift of salvation. If a person doesn't want anything to do with God now, why would he accept them into heaven? Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

No Second Chance in Hell

God’s Word is clear that one can so harden their heart that they will no longer hear the voice of God (Hebrews 3:6-14). When we see the post mortem pleadings of the damned in scripture, we never see them offered another chance to get right with God or told to “wait until you are purified or finally forgiven in the future.” Rather, we see when they do plead, the door to heaven is shut (Matthew 25:1-13) and they are cast away as evil-doers (Matthew 7:21-23). They are told that those who are on earth need to respond to the revelation given to them on earth or they are without hope (Luke 16:27-31).

 

[Skywalker]

I don't give a fig about God's holiness. Far as I'm concerned that's just an idea the Jews and the church invented as part of the whole "You have to believe in Jesus or God will be forced against His will to send you to hell" pitch.

Heaven and hell is in the Bible. it's not church doctrine. People confuse God with pastors and priests, who are human beings. Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

The scriptures are clear:

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.” –John 3:36

The scriptures speak of those whose hearts have become so hard that “it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance” and who end up being cursed (Hebrews 6:4-8). The scriptures state that “there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” but only “fiery judgment” that will consume God’s adversaries (Hebrews 10:26-31).

In the book of Hebrews, God further states:

“See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.” –Hebrews 12:16-17

The Lord makes it clear that there will be a time when it is too late to repent and even the cries for mercy from the wicked will go unheard by God:

“Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me, since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD.” –Proverbs 1:28-29

There is hardly any wiggle room for a second chance in hell in these passages or anywhere in Scripture. Bell would have his readers believe of the book of Revelation that “the letter does not end with blood and violence” (p.112). That, of course, depends on whether or not you are saved or lost. Certainly, the redeemed enter into a New Heaven and a New Earth filled with unending bliss in the presence of God (Revelation 21 & 22).

In contrast, the book of Revelation ends with far greater horrors than blood and violence for the impenitent wicked. In fact, God warns in the last chapter of the book of Revelation that the time will come when the wicked will go into eternity and continue to be wicked and the righteous will continue to be righteous:

“Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.” –Revelation 22:11

 

[rational experiences]

Hell is about being separated eternally from God in outer darkness. John 3:19 quote.

Night time clear gases not burning.

Space a condition will remain as the condition space for ever and ever.

Is not eternity or eternal.

Meaning eternal never changed.

Space stretched contracts. As energy removed it's own mass. Space emptiness increases. Space gets larger. Space gets colder.

Theme one day space might shut itself

Meaning increasing mass of Empty space will overcome eradicate form.

If space shuts then a higher body owning the hole would support its shut.

The eternal.

Where we conscious humans quote came from after heavens filled back in space.

An eternal spirit would quote. I became a human as I entered into heavenly hell

Immaculate not burning.
Natural light burning.

Inherited life survived but die. As the eternal had been converted.

How the spiritual teaching was taught.

When I die due to daylight the dies...I leave a recorded living life in gas spirit heavens as my father in science caused it. But I was separated from the eternal and live forever as that one spirit who had a human experience.

Ask a human how did you know destruction.

Our parents came out of the eternal. Were changed by creation. Made them intelligently advised from a higher state of being.

What I was taught.

The eternal owned one message recorded before the two human parents became human.

Human reasoning God caused all my problems. I became trapped living on earth.

No proof.

Will never be proven. I can only discuss a personal experience.

 

[dybmh]

CS Lewis said either Jesus was a liar, lunatic, or God. If Jesus was a liar or a lunatic his motives couldn't have been pure. At best he would have been a troubled person.

Well... I didn't say any of that. The story of Jesus "dieing for people's sins" does not require that he is God. That's the point, believe it or not.

 

[rational experiences]

Jesus talked more about hell and heaven, because he came to save us from hell. Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

A man gets brain prickled gas burning fallout irradiated.

Quotes science satanism God earth body converted caused it.

Changed my holy flesh. Blood leaked out unnaturally as bio chemicals minerals changed.

God body owned minerals.

Machine mass took minerals melted then. Satanism.

Says ice balances a stable holy water life.

Water carrier January.

I am born in January water aware.

Ice melts evaporation effect stopped. Water held above our heads keeps gases heated not to burn.

Water ground mass replaced.

A human was constantly body attacked.

Knew atmosphere supported human health only.

Asked questions

What constant harmed him.

Science pyramid using water to cool nuclear converting the reason. Channelled water into pyramid. Proven design pumped water.

Temple held alchemical vats.

We lost ground water. Spirit image seen humans deceased animals boarding pyramid ramp.

Phenomena.

I saw men about time era by dress dark ages plus Michael Jackson and Elvis images plus aliens. Manifest. Float over ground disappear.

Proven machine communication cause.

Current atmospheric model studying radiation radio waves by machines.

I saw black and brown wispy smoke whilst my brain prickled burnt.

I am a female.

Knew how my brother must have felt ignored by satanic science liars.

 

[Subduction Zone]

CS Lewis said either Jesus was a liar, lunatic, or God. If Jesus was a liar or a lunatic his motives couldn't have been pure. At best he would have been a troubled person.

He forgot "legend".

 

[Skywalker]

He forgot "legend".

The parallels between Jesus and Zoraster are embellished. Jesus Vs Zoroaster – Debunking The Alleged Parallels | Reasons for Jesus

6. He was slain. Zoroaster was indeed said to be slain, but his death isn’t vested with any significance. There are a couple of stories about his death. A late story has him struck by lightning, but that is from a post-Christian source. An account that is generally accepted has Zoroaster killed at age 77 by a wizard/priest. There are no details on this death, other than that it occurred in a temple. A nice story from the 17th century has Zoroaster whipping out rosary beads and throwing them at his assassin as he dies. [Jack.ZP, 124-9]Either way, Zoroaster’s murder has neither the invested significance nor the surrounding similarities of the death of Jesus. There is also a third account that has him killed in battle as a king! However, none of this may matter as Herzfeld, after analysis of the data, concludes that the “murder of Zoroaster is entirely unhistorical” for the stories of it are all in late sources as much as 1400 years after his time, and had he truly been murdered, it would “resound loudly and persistently in history” before that [Herz.ZW, 241, 845].

The death of Zoroaster not being significant is different from salvation in Christianity being in the acceptance of Jesus as one's Creator and Savior. Zoroastrianism scriptures don't mention that he died for the sins of the world. There also in no historical evidence regarding the death of Zoroaster. Hallucination Theories to Explain Jesus' Resurrection?

Collective hallucinations
One of the central issues in this entire discussion concerns whether a group of people can witness the same hallucination. Most psychologists dispute the reality of such occurrences, as pointed out below. A rare attempt suggesting that collective hallucinations are possible, without any application to Jesus' resurrection, is made by Leonard Zusne and Warren Jones. They point to phenomena such as claimed sightings of the virgin Mary and other accompanying reports from groups of people. In cases like these, "expectation" and "emotional excitement" are "a prerequisite for collective hallucinations." In such groups we see the "emotional contagion that so often takes place in crowds moved by strong emotions...." [25]

But favoring collective hallucinations is highly problematic, and on several grounds.

(1) To begin, the chief examples of "collective hallucinations" provided by Zusne and Jones were group religious experiences such as Marion apparitions. But these citations simply beg the question regarding whether such experiences could possibly be objective, or even supernatural, at least in some sense. In other words, why must a naturalistic, subjective explanation be assumed? [26] This seems to rule them out in an a priori manner, before the data are considered.

 

[rational experiences]

He forgot "legend".

Science owns a written document called it a bible.

Who from a healthy saved life write evidence life was attacked in science cause.

Wrote never give God...being earth a name ever again.

Science warning to science. You never forgot...you ignore due to human greed and want.

 

[Skywalker]

Well... I didn't say any of that. The story of Jesus "dieing for people's sins" does not require that he is God. That's the point, believe it or not.

God is infinite. We are finite beings made in His image and likeness. Why could any human being pay the wages of sin, which is eternal separation from God? Your Time on Earth is Running Out | Good Fight Ministries

Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). Jesus is the only way to be saved because He alone had the infinite value as the God-man to pay for the sins of the whole world (Hebrews 3:1-3).

Jesus not only died for our sins on the cross, but He rose from the dead on the third day, conquering the grave and death. While Jesus died for the world, His blood is only efficacious for those who repent and place their trust in Him.

Jesus was the only one who could die for our sins for the same reason Jesus is the judge of all people-because He is God and infinite.

“In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.” (Acts 17:30-31)

 

[Subduction Zone]

The parallels between Jesus and Zoraster are embellished. Jesus Vs Zoroaster – Debunking The Alleged Parallels | Reasons for Jesus



The death of Zoroaster not being significant is different from salvation in Christianity being in the acceptance of Jesus as one's Creator and Savior. Zoroastrianism scriptures don't mention that he died for the sins of the world. There also in no historical evidence regarding the death of Zoroaster. Hallucination Theories to Explain Jesus' Resurrection?

You are taking a strange detour again.