Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[Skywalker]

Those were prophecies that were reinterpreted by Christians. They were not the Messianic prophesies.

Christians didn't reinterpret the prophecies, because what are the odds that Jesus could have arranged events to have met those prophecies, or could have been born into them? The Prophecies About Jesus

The Old Testament contains over 400 prophecies about the coming Messiah. Jesus Christ perfectly fulfilled every one of them.
Do you know what the odds of that happening are? Think about it: one single man fulfilling every prediction about the coming Messiah, Savior of the world.
A professor named Peter Stoner worked with 600 students to figure out what the probability would be of just eight (of the over 400) prophecies being fulfilled in any one person who had lived up to the present time. The result: 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000.21
Lee Strobel, an atheist-turned-Christian, performed some calculations to try to figure out what this would look like in real life. Lee notes:
“I imagined the entire world being covered with white tile that was one-and-a-half inches square—every bit of dry land on the planet—with the bottom of just one tile painted red. Then I pictured a person being allowed to wander for a lifetime around all seven continents. He would be permitted to bend down only one time and pick up a piece of tile. What are the odds it would be the one tile whose reverse side was painted red? The odds would be the same as just eight of the Old Testament prophecies coming true in any one person throughout history!”22

 

[Skywalker]

Now you are reinterpreting that verse without any justification. You cannot reinterpret a verse just because it is false.

The Christian doctrine on the Messiah is more consistent than other beliefs. Christians believe that there is one Messiah who will have a second coming. That is more consistent than either there are two Messiahs or the same Messiah will fulfill all of the prophecies in one coming.

 

[dybmh]

Even if someone would lie about eternal life

Lie? I didn't say anything about lying.

why would he choose to die to satisfy a belief in his followers about salvation from sin?

If the story is true, I think his motives were pure. He wanted to save his disciples.

 

[Skywalker]

Lie? I didn't say anything about lying.

If the story is true, I think his motives were pure. He wanted to save his disciples.

Why would his motives be pure if he wasn't God? Psychologists find the idea that Jesus had mental illness doubtful, and its questionable if a person's motives are pure even then-troubled is a more accurate term.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Yeshua's death actually had less to do with "payment," and more to do with reconciliation. God made a covenant that he would be our God, we broke the covenant (which he knew would happen), therefore in his mercy He already had in place the way for us to return. Just like the passover lamb, Yeshua's blood redeemed us from bondage (caused by breaking the commandments), in order that we might return to God. Here did this all in great mercy because he knew that, due to our humanity, we wouldn't be able to keep the commandments perfectly, therefore instead of condemning us to a permanent state of separation, he bore the penalty himself.
Also, God did forgive without demanding payment, for example the many times he relented of his anger towards Israel when they sinned against him in the wilderness.
We are all guilty according to the bible, yet he offers life and forgiveness in exchange for death and condemnation.

You're leaving out the part where Jesus says, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

So God's attempt at reconciliation to us doesn't come without a price, right? It'd be nice if God just said "You're forgiven. I'm God and I can forgive anyone without any demands for repayment." Now that's a God I can get behind. But this thing of God being like a stick-up artist in an alley putting a gun to my head and saying, "Sure you're free to reject my Son. I gave you free will. But if you exercise that free will to reject him your brains are going to be all over this sidewalk." That's not what I call free will. I call that coercion.

 

[Skywalker]

You're leaving out the part where Jesus says, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

So God's attempt at reconciliation to us doesn't come without a price, right? It'd be nice if God just said "You're forgiven. I'm God and I can forgive anyone without any demands for repayment." Now that's a God I can get behind. But this thing of God being like a stick-up artist in an alley putting a gun to my head and saying, "Sure you're free to reject my Son. I gave you free will. But if you exercise that free will to reject him your brains are going to be all over this sidewalk." That's not what I call free will. I call that coercion.

Jesus dying on the cross offered the gift of salvation. A person has to accept a gift to receive it.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The prophet Isaiah in the Old Testament mentioned the holiness of God. The Holiness of God

I don't give a fig about God's holiness. Far as I'm concerned that's just an idea the Jews and the church invented as part of the whole "You have to believe in Jesus or God will be forced against His will to send you to hell" pitch.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Jesus dying on the cross offered the gift of salvation. A person has to accept a gift to receive it.

I don't have to accept a gift if I don't want it. I told you, the whole "Jesus died for my sins" thing is just nonsense far as I'm concerned.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Jesus sweating blood doesn't contradict science. Why did Jesus sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane? | GotQuestions.org

I didn't ask if it contradicted science. I asked, "Who was there to see Jesus sweating blood?"

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

A judge can't always be clement, because people go to jail sometimes.

And sometimes they don't.

 

[Skywalker]

I don't give a fig about God's holiness. Far as I'm concerned that's just an idea the Jews and the church invented as part of the whole "You have to believe in Jesus or God will be forced against His will to send you to hell" pitch.

People don't go to hell because they are sinners they go to hell because they reject Christ.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

If there was no penalty it wouldn't have a meaning that something is against the law things are against the law because of order. Even little mistakes go against God's laws.

God never told me that even little mistakes go against His laws. I don't drink that kool-Aid.

 

[Skywalker]

And sometimes they don't.

That's just a detail-the big picture is that judges punish those who break the laws.What is hell? It is eternal fire and punishment for non-Christians | carm.org

Is Hell eternal conscious torment?
There are some Christian groups and many cults that deny the idea that hell, in the general sense, means eternal, conscious punishment. Some maintain that God’s eternal punishment is annihilation or non-existence. Others say it is temporal, and that eventually all will be saved out of hell. Perhaps the most common objection is that a loving God would never punish people in eternal torment. We agree that God is love (1 John 4:8), but He is also just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6) and eternal (Psalm 90:2; 1 Tim. 1:17). God punishes the evildoer (Isaiah 11:13), and this punishment will be eternal. But the question remains, is this eternal punishment conscious or not?

There are verses that can be interpreted to support the idea that the dead are not conscious after death: (Ecc. 9:5–the dead know nothing and Psalm 146:4 – their thoughts perish – are good examples.) Other verses compare the dead to sleep: Acts 13:36; 1 Cor. 15:1-6; 1 Thess. 4:13, etc. But these latter verses are merely comparing the similarity between the appearance of the dead and the appearance of someone sleeping.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

People don't go to hell because they are sinners they go to hell because they reject Christ.

People go to hell because God sends them to hell.

 

[Skywalker]

God never told me that even little mistakes go against His laws. I don't drink that kool-Aid.

All sin separates people from God. Some sins are greater than others. All sins are not equal. | carm.org

Are all sins equal? Are some sins worse than others?
by Matt Slick | Sep 12, 2010 | Questions, Sin

All sins are not equal. Some are worse than others. We can quickly see this from Jesus’ own words when he said in John 19:11, “You would have no authority over me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered me up to you has the greater sin.”

Other Scriptures that verify this are also taught by Jesus when he said the following:

• “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 “Nevertheless I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you,” (Matt. 11:21-22).
• “the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 “And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few,” (Luke 12:46-48).

Jesus clearly taught us that there is a difference in the level of sins that we can commit. So, we can conclude there are sins that are worse than others by nature. We could easily say, for example, that stealing a paperclip is not as bad as murdering a group of people.

However, it also seems to be the case that knowledge affects the severity of sin as well:

• “For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them,” (2 Pet. 2:20-21).

Peter says that awareness of sin and intent are factors that affect whether or not sin is greater or lesser. This is supported by the Scripture that says, “Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, to him it is sin,” (James 4:17).


All sin leads to damnation
Even though there are sins that are greater than other sins, all sin leads to eternal damnation. The reason sin does this is not because of the severity of the sin, but because of who the sin is committed against. Since it is God who gives the law when we sin we break his law. Therefore, we are offending God and our sin is against him. Since God is infinite, our sins take on an infinite quality.

This is why we need an infinitely valuable sacrifice, which is found in the person of Jesus who is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14).

 

[Skywalker]

People go to hell because God sends them to hell.

God doesn't send people to hell. People send themselves to hell. God made a way for everyone through Christ, but people can either accept or reject the gift of salvation.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

That's just a detail-the big picture is that judges punish those who break the laws.What is hell? It is eternal fire and punishment for non-Christians | carm.org

The big detail is that judges have discretion on who they send to jail.

 

[Skywalker]

I didn't ask if it contradicted science. I asked, "Who was there to see Jesus sweating blood?"

Jesus sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane. There didn't have to be his disciples eye witnessing it-it was recorded by them and they witnessed him after he came back to life. Why did Jesus sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane? | GotQuestions.org

Why did Jesus sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane?

Question: "Why did Jesus sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane?"

Answer: The night before Jesus Christ was crucified, He prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane. Luke, a physician, recorded that Jesus’ sweat was like drops of blood: “And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground” (Luke 22:44). Some consider Luke’s description as mere simile—Jesus’ sweat fell to the ground in large, heavy drops, the way that blood drips from an open wound. However, there exists a medical condition that produces the symptoms described and explains Luke’s mention of blood.

Hematidrosis is a rare, but very real, medical condition that causes one’s sweat to contain blood. The sweat glands are surrounded by tiny blood vessels that can constrict and then dilate to the point of rupture, causing blood to effuse into the sweat glands. The cause of hematidrosis is extreme anguish. In the other gospel accounts, we see the level of Jesus’ anguish: “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death” (Matthew 26:38; cf. Mark 14:34).

The intense anguish and sorrow Jesus felt was certainly understandable. Being God, Christ knew “all that was going to happen to Him” (John 18:4). He knew in painstaking detail the events that were to follow soon after He was betrayed by one of His very own disciples. He knew He was about to undergo several trials where all of the witnesses against Him would lie. He knew that many who had hailed Him as the Messiah only days earlier would now be screaming for His crucifixion (Luke 23:23). He knew He would be flogged nearly to the point of death before they pounded the metal spikes into His flesh. He knew the prophetic words of Isaiah spoken seven centuries earlier that He would be beaten so badly that He would be “disfigured beyond that of any man” and “beyond human likeness” (Isaiah 52:14). Certainly, these things factored into His great anguish and sorrow, causing Him to sweat drops of blood. Yet there was more.

Crucifixion was considered to be the most painful and torturous method of execution ever devised and was used on the most despised and wicked people. In fact, so horrific was the pain that a word was designed to help explain it—excruciating, which literally means “from the cross.” From His arrest in the garden until the time our Lord stated, “It is finished” (John 19:30), Scripture records only one instance where Jesus “cried out in a loud voice” (Matthew 27:46). As our sinless Savior bore the weight of the world’s sins on His shoulders, His Father must have looked away, as His “eyes are too pure to look on evil” (Habakkuk1:13), causing the suffering Servant to cry out “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Psalm 22:1; Matthew 27:46). The spiritual pain of this feeling of abandonment no doubt greatly exceeded the intense physical pain the Lord endured on our behalf.

At the beginning of creation, human history began in a garden (Genesis 2:8), and when the first Adam sinned against God in this garden, death entered the world (Genesis 3:6). Thousands of years later, Jesus Christ, the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45), entered into another garden to accept the cup from His Father’s hand (Matthew 26:42; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42), and death was about to be swallowed up in victory. Although God’s plan was designed before the creation of the world (Ephesians 1:4–5), we must never forget that its execution came at a great cost. Ultimately, then, we are the ones responsible for the blood that dripped from our Savior as He prayed in the garden. And we are the reason Jesus’ soul was overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Indeed, these bloodied sweat drops came at a great cost; let us never forget that.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

God doesn't send people to hell. People send themselves to hell. God made a way for everyone through Christ, but people can either accept or reject the gift of salvation.

That's just a way to whitewash God of all blame for His sending people to hell. God is the one who says, "Depart from me into eternal flames." If that's not sending someone to hell I don't know what is.

 

[Skywalker]

The big detail is that judges have discretion on who they send to jail.

Jesus talked more about hell than heaven. Universalism is not in the Bible. What is hell? It is eternal fire and punishment for non-Christians | carm.org

Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they’d get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.

Jesus said, “And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell,” (Matt. 5:29-30).