Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[Skywalker]

Not me. I dumped the Christian faith after 60 years in because there was absolutely NO evidence to sustain it--no evidence for Jesus, no evidence for the apostles, no evidence for Paul, no evidence for his crucifixion or resurrection. Even the tomb doesn't exist. Surely the apostles would have made it a holy site if Jesus had really risen. I'm not one of these gullibles who falls for "You have to accept on faith". I want proof if I'm going to believe in something and I think God understands the sentiment perfectly. However, if irrefutable evidence emerged that Jesus Christ was real I'd gladly return to the faith.

The other explanations for the crucifixion of Jesus are questionable. Does Hebrews 5:7 deny the Crucifixion of Jesus? | carm.org

Does Hebrews 5:7 deny the Crucifixion of Jesus?
by Ryan Turner | Jul 27, 2010 | Islam, World Religions

“In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety,” (Hebrews 5:7, NASB).

Muslim Argument from Hebrews 5:7
There are a number of Muslims who state that Hebrews 5:7 teaches that Jesus was not crucified. They believe that the statement “He was heard because of His piety,” indicates that God answered Jesus’ prayer not to be crucified.

Response
The High Priest and Psalm 22
First, the context of Hebrews 5 is how Jesus is our High Priest and Mediator. High priests would often offer prayers and petitions on behalf of the people of Israel. Therefore, Jesus as the great High Priest, did the same.

What Hebrews 5:7 (cf. Heb. 7:23-24) says is that God heard Jesus’ petition as a priest, but it does not say that God spared Jesus from being crucified (cf. Heb. 6:6). In fact, the author of Hebrews appears to be alluding to Psalm 22:24 which says, “…But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.” Psalm 22 is a Messianic Psalm where the Psalmist predicts the future death by crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah (Psalm 22:1-21; cf. 22:16), but ends in praise explaining the glories of the Messiah’s victory (Psalm 22:22-31). Interestingly, Hebrews 2:12 considers this Psalm as referring to Jesus as the Messiah by quoting Psalm 22:22, “Since that psalm is messianic for this author (cf. Heb. 2:12), it is probable that he actually has the sufferings of the Cross in mind, as does the psalm. This would be appropriate since the cries of the Savior would then be linked directly with His sacrificial work.”

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

It would be inappropriate if a judge let a criminal go unpunished.

Judges let criminals go unpunished all the time. It's called clemency. A mother is guilty of shoplifting but she has a 1-year old child to take care of. She was shoplifting food to feed her child. She's guilty but do you actually think the judge is going to send her to jail if there's nobody to take care of the child? The judge will likely issue her a warning not to do it again and let her go. God can do the same thing. We are actually better than God because we have the capacity to forgive without demanding payment in return. God is NOT capable of such acts of mercy.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Jesus sweat blood before he went to the cross. How is that a false suffering?

Jesus could not have died for our sins if he was a man.

How do you know Jesus sweat blood? Because Luke says he did? Luke wasn't even there. Nobody was there.

 

[Skywalker]

There's no price to pay for our sins. God is God. He doesn't need payment of anything to forgive. He demands us to forgive without payment. Why can't He do the same thing? Far as I'm concerned there's no such thing as sin anyway. There's just good actions and bad actions that are determined by whether they hurt or help.

A judge would not be just if he let a murderer evade punishment. God is against even the smallest sin.

We can forgive others but we cannot atone for others.

Even little sins harm us and God.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

A judge would not be just if he let a murderer evade punishment. God is against even the smallest sin.

We can forgive others but we cannot atone for others.

Even little sins harm us and God.

God never told me little sins harm Him. He never told me sin period harms Him. If God is that fragile that He's harmed by a little cuss word He doesn't deserve to be called God.

 

[Skywalker]

There's no price to pay for our sins. God is God. He doesn't need payment of anything to forgive. He demands us to forgive without payment. Why can't He do the same thing? Far as I'm concerned there's no such thing as sin anyway. There's just good actions and bad actions that are determined by whether they hurt or help.

Even little sins hurt us because they separate us from God.

 

[dybmh]

Why would Jesus have died for our iniquities if not to take our place?

The answer is there in the story if you look at it from a Jewish perspective. Remember Jesus was Jewish, and this miracle of eternal life and salvation, like all of his miracles, can be best understood from that context. I'm not going to give you the answer, because I don't think you will believe me. However I'll give you the clues to this riddle. And if you ever want to take a guess at the answer, feel free to let me know.

"Why would Jesus die for our iniquities if not to take our place?"

It wasn't substitution. A plausible alternative explanation can be found from the following:

• Jesus promised his disciples eternal life
• Jesus promised his disciples salvation from sin
• Jesus needed to die at the appropriate time
• Jesus made himself into the pascal lamb offering
• The requirement for eternal life is described in John 6:54

edit to add: Jesus doesn't need to be God to accomplish this miracle.

 

[Skywalker]

God never told me little sins harm Him. He never told me sin period harms Him. If God is that fragile that He's harmed by a little cuss word He doesn't deserve to be called God.

If there was no penalty it wouldn't have a meaning that something is against the law things are against the law because of order. Even little mistakes go against God's laws.

 

[Skywalker]

Judges let criminals go unpunished all the time. It's called clemency. A mother is guilty of shoplifting but she has a 1-year old child to take care of. She was shoplifting food to feed her child. She's guilty but do you actually think the judge is going to send her to jail if there's nobody to take care of the child? The judge will likely issue her a warning not to do it again and let her go. God can do the same thing. We are actually better than God because we have the capacity to forgive without demanding payment in return. God is NOT capable of such acts of mercy.

A judge can't always be clement, because people go to jail sometimes.

 

[Subduction Zone]

God is omnipotent, omniscient, and self existing.

Then there was no need for Jesus's crucifixion.

I do wish that you would make up your mind.

 

[Skywalker]

How do you know Jesus sweat blood? Because Luke says he did? Luke wasn't even there. Nobody was there.

Jesus sweating blood doesn't contradict science. Why did Jesus sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane? | GotQuestions.org

Hematidrosis is a rare, but very real, medical condition that causes one’s sweat to contain blood. The sweat glands are surrounded by tiny blood vessels that can constrict and then dilate to the point of rupture, causing blood to effuse into the sweat glands. The cause of hematidrosis is extreme anguish. In the other gospel accounts, we see the level of Jesus’ anguish: “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death” (Matthew 26:38; cf. Mark 14:34).

 

[Subduction Zone]

What evidence in the texts support Christians reinterpreting the text? Malachi 3:1 mentions God's messenger preparing the way before God.

The fact that they refer only to Malachi 3 1 and not he rest of the chapter. It clearly is not about Jesus in context. All sorts of things mentioned there that Jesus did not do.

 

[Skywalker]

God never told me little sins harm Him. He never told me sin period harms Him. If God is that fragile that He's harmed by a little cuss word He doesn't deserve to be called God.

The prophet Isaiah in the Old Testament mentioned the holiness of God. The Holiness of God

The Holiness of God
“I said: ‘Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!’” (v. 5)

- Isaiah 6:1–7
Correctly understanding the depth of human sin will give us a more accurate understanding of how far we have fallen in Adam, and, therefore, also the original dignity and position that God made us to possess as His image-bearers. But we cannot understand the depth of humanity’s evil until we know something of the backdrop against which our sin stands out. We are talking, of course, about the perfect holiness of the Lord, and today’s passage is one of the clearest presentations of this divine attribute in all of Scripture.

Isaiah’s call to ministry is well known, and it is remarkable for what it says about Isaiah and all other human beings. Without a doubt, the prophet was one of the most righteous and holy men in all of Judah, for the prophets were generally known for their piety and devotion to our Creator. Consequently, one might expect Isaiah to be confident in the presence of God and for the Lord to praise His servant for His goodness. Yet that is not what happened when Isaiah met Yahweh “in the year that King Uzziah died” (Isa. 6:1). Confronted with a vision of God on His throne, Isaiah could only proclaim an oracle of woe upon himself (v. 5). An oracle of woe was the worst prophecy that could be given of a nation or an individuals, and here Isaiah applies it to himself for his uncleanness (v. 5).

 

[Subduction Zone]

If there was no penalty it wouldn't have a meaning that something is against the law things are against the law because of order. Even little mistakes go against God's laws.

Okay, a penalty is fine. The problem is that your God is immoral. It is immoral to give a punishment far in excess of the supposed crime.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Jesus sweating blood doesn't contradict science. Why did Jesus sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane? | GotQuestions.org

Let's try to leave out what is probably myth for now. When you can show that the Bible is reliable then we can discuss some of the more arcane claims of the Bible.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Jesus sweat blood before he went to the cross. How is that a false suffering?

Jesus could not have died for our sins if he was a man.

If Jesus was just a man it was suffering. But then he was not God. If he was God then is was all for show.

This is why you need to make up your mind about Jesus.

 

[Batya]

Judges let criminals go unpunished all the time. It's called clemency. A mother is guilty of shoplifting but she has a 1-year old child to take care of. She was shoplifting food to feed her child. She's guilty but do you actually think the judge is going to send her to jail if there's nobody to take care of the child? The judge will likely issue her a warning not to do it again and let her go. God can do the same thing. We are actually better than God because we have the capacity to forgive without demanding payment in return. God is NOT capable of such acts of mercy.

Yeshua's death actually had less to do with "payment," and more to do with reconciliation. God made a covenant that he would be our God, we broke the covenant (which he knew would happen), therefore in his mercy He already had in place the way for us to return. Just like the passover lamb, Yeshua's blood redeemed us from bondage (caused by breaking the commandments), in order that we might return to God. Here did this all in great mercy because he knew that, due to our humanity, we wouldn't be able to keep the commandments perfectly, therefore instead of condemning us to a permanent state of separation, he bore the penalty himself.
Also, God did forgive without demanding payment, for example the many times he relented of his anger towards Israel when they sinned against him in the wilderness.
We are all guilty according to the bible, yet he offers life and forgiveness in exchange for death and condemnation.

 

[Skywalker]

The answer is there in the story if you look at it from a Jewish perspective. Remember Jesus was Jewish, and this miracle of eternal life and salvation, like all of his miracles, can be best understood from that context. I'm not going to give you the answer, because I don't think you will believe me. However I'll give you the clues to this riddle. And if you ever want to take a guess at the answer, feel free to let me know.

"Why would Jesus die for our iniquities if not to take our place?"

It wasn't substitution. A plausible alternative explanation can be found from the following:

• Jesus promised his disciples eternal life
• Jesus promised his disciples salvation from sin
• Jesus needed to die at the appropriate time
• Jesus made himself into the pascal lamb offering
• The requirement for eternal life is described in John 6:54

edit to add: Jesus doesn't need to be God to accomplish this miracle.

Even if someone would lie about eternal life (and its questionable Jesus had mental illness), why would he choose to die to satisfy a belief in his followers about salvation from sin? Jesus died to save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21) not to be popular. Desire & Suffering: Buddhism Vs Christianity | Reasons for Jesus

His early demise was not a terrible mistake or backlash from an unwise method of presenting his message. It was simply his destiny, the cup the Father gave him to drink. (See Matthew 26:39.) Jesus even claimed that no man took his life from him; he gave it up willingly. (See John 10:18.) Irrefutably, it was according to “the definite plan and foreknowledge of God”— for he was “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8). It was a necessary step in the plan for man’s redemption. (Acts 2:23, See Luke 24:13–32.)

 

[Skywalker]

Then there was no need for Jesus's crucifixion.

I do wish that you would make up your mind.

God being omnipotent and omniscient doesn't take away from his just nature. What does it mean that God is love? | GotQuestions.org

So, what does it mean that God is love? Love is an attribute of God. Love is a core aspect of God’s character, His Person. God’s love is in no sense in conflict with His holiness, righteousness, justice, or even His wrath. All of God’s attributes are in perfect harmony. Everything God does is loving, just as everything He does is just and right. God is the perfect example of true love. Amazingly, God has given those who receive His Son Jesus as their personal Savior the ability to love as He does, through the power of the Holy Spirit (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1, 23-24).

 

[Batya]

Okay, a penalty is fine. The problem is that your God is immoral. It is immoral to give a punishment far in excess of the supposed crime.

Jesus' death was not a punishment.