Why do Atheists Debate Religion?

[LuisDantas]

So religion has different meanings in different contexts correct?

Sure.

The context here is why atheists debate religion correct?

Yes, and that is one more reason not to encourage that common mistake.

In this context the meaning of the word 'religion' does in fact refer specifically to belief in a supreme power.

Uh, no, not at all. Quite the opposite.

 

[Bunyip]

It is something. Much of my belief is non-theistic, he is grossly misrepresenting the term 'religious' & 'religion' to suit his own arguments.

LOL How exactly am I grossly misrepresenting by sticking to the accepted meaning in the correct context? Exactly as it is found in most dictionaries.

Look it up.

 

[LuisDantas]

LOL How exactly am I grossly misrepresenting by sticking to the accepted meaning in the correct context? Exactly as it is found in most dictionaries.

Look it up.

Do you really think that is what you are doing?

I take major exception to your statement.

 

[Bunyip]

Sure.




Yes, and that is one more reason not to encourage that common mistake.

How is it a mistake? That words have context specific meanings is not a mistake, and that we should use the correct one is not a mistake either.

Uh, no, not at all. Quite the opposite.

According to common usage it does, according to the dictionary it does. You are the one who is denying what can be found in any dictionary.

 

[Quintessence]

It is something. Much of my belief is non-theistic, he is grossly misrepresenting the term 'religious' & 'religion' to suit his own arguments.

I don't know if I'd say that. I just think it is very erroneous to presume the OP meant to limit discussion of religion to merely theistic religions, or, even if they did, that it is wise to limit the discussion in that fashion to begin with. Actual professors and scholars of religious studies would not do such a thing. I had a few religion courses in college. In none of them was religion defined in a manner that required acceptance of gods or higher powers. I don't think it's at all reasonable to assume a theistic-centric definition of religion. I understand why this assumption happens sometimes; people can be ethnocentric. I rarely find an ethnocentric approach to topics to be acceptable.

 

[Bunyip]

Do you really think that is what you are doing?

I take major exception to your statement.

Of course that is what I am doing. I have checked in half a dozen dictionaries so far and have researched the etymology of the word - that it relates to belief in a supreme power in this context is clear.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is clear, I suppose, if you don't care to learn the reality of the facts.

 

[Desert Snake]

I understand why this assumption happens sometimes; people can be ethnocentric. I rarely find an ethnocentric approach to topics to be acceptable.

I'm not sure if it's even ethnocentric, it's just wrong. In terms of actual debate/discussion, yes I think it's unacceptable.

 

[Bunyip]

It is clear, I suppose, if you don't care to learn the reality of the facts.

On the contrary, anyone interested enough to open their dictionary will find that I am correct.

Simple enter 'define religion' into googpe and the result will confirm my position.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not sure if it's even ethnocentric, it's just wrong. In terms of actual debate/discussion, yes I think it's unacceptable.

Considering that the thread is an effort at understanding why atheists may have an interest in religious matters, I must agree. Emphatically.

 

[Quintessence]

I'm not sure if it's even ethnocentric, it's just wrong. In terms of actual debate/discussion, yes I think it's unacceptable.

Maybe I'm being generous. I like to think of it as ethnocentrism. The way people understand religion in my country is overwhelmingly informed by the dominating religions of my culture. Those religions happen to be theistic. Because education on religion is abysmal in my country, people learn about what religion is based on what the dominant religions are in my culture. They are not exposed to the diversity of the world's religions, much less the scholarly study of religions. It's easy for people in my culture to believe religion must be theistic, must be organized, must be dogmatic, must have a sacred text, and yada yada yada because that's what religion looks like based on their limited exposure to the subject. It's wrong, but it's all that they know.

 

[LuisDantas]

On the contrary, anyone interested enough to open their dictionary will find that I am correct.

Simple enter 'define religion' into googpe and the result will confirm my position.

Come on. You are far smarter than that. Do you think so little of us as to expect a dictionary to keep us puzzled?

 

[Quintessence]

On the contrary, anyone interested enough to open their dictionary will find that I am correct.

Simple enter 'define religion' into googpe and the result will confirm my position.

Sure. Go to your public library, check out any decent book on world religions, and it will not confirm your position. Because it will have, you know, a chapter on that atheistic religion called Buddhism. And maybe even one on Confucianism! Le gasp! :faint:

 

[Willamena]

Should I point out that this discussion will devolve into the one about whether babies are atheists? (As the same convention is to blame.)

Probably no.

 

[Bunyip]

Come on. You are far smarter than that. Do you think so little of us as to expect a dictionary to keep us puzzled?

I am certainly surprised that you would go so far without bothering to consult one yes.

When you say that this thread is supposed to be about asking atheists how they feel about religious matters - you mean 'religious' in the context of theism/atheism and so on I assume. As opposed to how they feel about somebodies religious devotion to baseball or Justin Beiber. Hence my point that equivocating between the meaning of 'religious' in different contexts is problematic.

 

[s2a]

TheScholar;3824801]Here's a question to debate. I'm on a road to search for knowledge, and I find something intriguing. When I joined, I expected a fair number of Spiritualists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, Pagans, etc. The one thing I didn't count on was the number of Atheists, I expected a few, but the number was much larger then I expected. I found that intriguing.

I understand people with a religion talking about their religion. I don't understand why some people talk so much about their lack of a religion. Am I wrong to not understand?

Why do Atheists debate religion?

I'm not going to take part in this debate, except to ask questions and dig further into ideas and thoughts.

Side Note: I grew up in a rather Christian community, and do not know many atheists. I expect that I could learn a lot about atheism from this discussion.[/quote]

Here's a question to debate. I'm on a road to search for knowledge, and I find something intriguing. When I joined, I expected a fair number of Spiritualists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, Pagans, etc. The one thing I didn't count on was the number of Atheists, I expected a few, but the number was much larger then I expected. I found that intriguing.

OK.

I understand people with a religion talking about their religion. I don't understand why some people talk so much about their lack of a religion. Am I wrong to not understand?

Probably. Spiritual knowledge may involve treating with unpleasant and annoyong “unbelievers; st before you path…sorry ‘bout that.

Why do Atheists debate religion?

Is it really unavoidable? In the United States anyway? Notice any dominance of TV on Sundays between 5 to 9 on Sundays in your cabled neck of the woods?

Got a lot of cable Shinto, Muslim, Judaism, Hindu, or Pagan programming in those, or any other hours? ANY?

Got too much programming challenging Christian claims at any time? ANY?

I'm not going to take part in this debate, except to ask questions and dig further into ideas and thoughts.

Coward.

Even car-bombing suicide terrorists at least claim personal responsibility for their heinous acts. You seek less accountability for politically opinions?

Oh, excuse me, My dad just farted. He had more compelling things to say than you have to offer….

Side Note: I grew up in a rather Christian community, and do not know many atheists. I expect that I could learn a lot about atheism from this discussion.

Indeed. There is much you might choose to *read* here first, and much more available to peruse in such “communities” as precursor…

You may discover that “atheists” encompass the entire spectrum of domestic and foreign policy issues, governmental accountabilities/responsibilities, heath care issues, and even Constitutional concerns.

You may discover that your accepted religious “faith” has almost NOTHING to do with “atheist” concerns for ALL. Then again, you may “believe” that ALL “atheists” think alike, and will burn as they most assuredly deserve.

Your opinions are always welcomed.

Just don’t take it too hard when you are proved to be wrong.

Fair enough?

 

[Quintessence]

Should I point out that this discussion will devolve into the one about whether babies are atheists?

Probably no.

At that point, I will light the thread on fire and ensure its incineration is total by dousing it in rocket fuel before ignition.

 

[Bunyip]

Sure. Go to your public library, check out any decent book on world religions, and it will not confirm your position. Because it will have, you know, a chapter on that atheistic religion called Buddhism. And maybe even one on Confucianism! Le gasp! :faint:

Several of my books on World religions define Buddism as a philosophy as opposed to a religion - on the basis that it does not posit a higher power.

Confuscianism is also often referred to as a philosophy for the same reasons.

 

[s2a]

At that point, I will light the thread on fire and ensure its incineration is total by dousing it in rocket fuel before ignition.

Brilliant!

Kill the messenger!

Bad news is always his fault!

 

[Quintessence]

Oh, hey, and in case anybody is interested in what a much more thorough dictionary actually says about the word religion (though it's still not a specialist dictionary, which is what we would really want to be using), prepare for a wall of text from the Oxford English Dictionary (and yes, I'm too lazy to format this nicely like I do for my "exploring theisms" series because seriously):

religion, n.
Forms: ME relegeon, ME religeoun, ME religioune, ME religiune, ME relygeoun, ME relygioun, ME relygyoun, ME relygyun, ME–15 relegyon, ME–15 religiun, ME–15 religyone, ME–15 relygion, ME–15 relygione, ME–15 relygyon, ME–16 religeon, ME–16 religione, ME–16 religioun, ME–16 religyon, ME–17 religon, ME– religion, lME riligioun, 15 relegion, 15 relygyone, 15–16 relligion; Sc. pre-17 ralegioun, pre-17 relegioun, pre-17 relegioune, pre-17 releidgeon, pre-17 reliegieoun, pre-17 religeoun, pre-17 religeowne, pre-17 religione, pre-17 religioun, pre-17 religioune, pre-17 religyowne, pre-17 relligion, pre-17 relygyon, pre-17 relygyoun, pre-17 relygyoune, pre-17 relygyown, pre-17 relygyowne, pre-17 17– religion, 18– releegion.
Etymology: < Anglo-Norman religioun, religiun, Anglo-Norman and Old French, Middle French religion (French religion ) system of beliefs and practices based on belief in, or acknowledgement of, some superhuman power or powers, also any particular such system (both first half of the 12th cent. in Anglo-Norman, originally in commune religion , translating post-classical Latin catholica religio ; the figurative use in sense 4b is apparently not paralleled in French until later (c1810)), monastery (c1130 in Anglo-Norman), religious house (1139 in Anglo-Norman), action or conduct indicating belief in, obedience to, and reverence for a god, gods, or similar superhuman power, piety, devotion (c1145), state of life bound by religious vows (c1150), scrupulousness, conscientiousness (c1210), religious order (end of the 13th cent. or earlier in Anglo-Norman), (specifically) Protestantism (1533 in ceulx de la religion the Protestants, lit. &#8216;those of the religion&#8217 and its etymon classical Latin religi&#333;n-, religi&#333; supernatural feeling of constraint, usually having the force of a prohibition or impediment, that which is prohibited, taboo, positive obligation, rule, impediment to action proceeding from religious awe or conscience, scruple, manifestation of divine sanction, religious fear, awe, religious feeling, superstition, quality evoking awe or reverence, sanctity, religious observance, religious practice, ritual, particular system of religious observance, cult, conscientiousness, in post-classical Latin also monastic community (8th cent.), religious order, rule observed by a religious order (12th cent.) < re- re- prefix + a second element of uncertain origin; by Cicero connected with relegere to read over again (see relection n.), so that the supposed original sense of &#8216;religion&#8217; would have been &#8216;painstaking observance of rites&#8217;, but by later authors (especially by early Christian writers) with relig&#257;re religate v., &#8216;religion&#8217; being taken as &#8216;that which ties believers to God&#8217;. Each view finds supporters among modern scholars.
Compare Old Occitan religio (late 12th cent., earliest in sense &#8216;religious order&#8217, Catalan religió (13th cent.), Spanish religión (end of the 12th cent.), Portuguese religião (13th cent.), Italian religione (second half of the 13th cent.). The Latin word was also borrowed into other Germanic languages: compare Middle Dutch, Dutch &#8224;religioen state of life bound by religious vows, religie system of faith and worship, belief in superhuman powers, etc., Middle Low German religi&#333;n, religie, German Religion (early 16th cent.), Swedish religion (1539), Danish religion (16th cent.).

1. A state of life bound by religious vows; the condition of belonging to a religious order. Also fig. Cf. to enter into religion at enter v. 8b.
Chiefly in Christian contexts, esp. with reference to the Roman Catholic Church.

a1225 (1200) Vices & Virtues 43 (MED), Ðo ðe ðese swikele woreld habbeð forlaten and seruið ure drihten on religiun, hie fol&#541;ið Daniele, ðe hali profiete.
c1230 (&#9656;?a1200) Ancrene Riwle (Corpus Cambr.) (1962) 9 Easkið him..hwer he funde in hali writ religiun openlukest descriueþ & isutelet þen is i sein iames canonial epistel: he seiþ what is Religiun, hwuch is riht ordre.
c1350 (1333) William of Shoreham Poems (1902) 63 (MED), Relessed Schel hym nau&#541;t be religioun, Þa&#541; he be nau&#541;t professed.
&#9656;a1393 Gower Confessio Amantis (Fairf.) viii. 1265 (MED), In blake clothes thei hem clothe, This lady and the dowhter bothe, And yolde hem to religion..After the reule..Where as Diane is seintefied.
a1400 (1325) Cursor Mundi (Vesp.) 23049 (MED), Þai..Went þaim in to religiun..For to beserue vr lauerd dright.
&#9656;c1449 R. Pecock Repressor (1860) 484 (MED), Oon maner religioun is..a bynding a&#541;en of a mannys fre wil with certein ordinauncis maad bi God or bi man or with vowis or oothis.
a1500 Lancelot of Laik (1870) 1300 Non orderis had he of Relegioune.
1528 Rede me & be nott Wrothe sig. d viii, Ware thou never in religion? Yes so god helpe me and halydom, A dosen yeres continually.
1535 D. Lindsay Satyre 3673 Mariage, be my opinioun, It is better Religioun, As to be freir or Nun.
1586 A. Day Eng. Secretorie i. sig. P3, Forsweare thou nothing good..but building of monasteries and entring into religion.
1663 H. Cogan tr. F. M. Pinto Voy. & Adventures (new ed.) xxviii. 111 Those of the country [sc. China] repute him for a Saint, because he ended his dayes in Religion.
1672 in F. O. Blundell Old Catholic Lancs. (1941) III. v. 47 She is called in Religion by the name of Barbary Ignatius.
1764 H. Walpole Castle of Otranto iv. 139 My father..was retired into religion in the kingdom of Naples.
1825 R. Southey in Q. Rev. 32 364 We must enter into religion and be made nuns by will or by force!
1886 H. N. Oxenham Mem. R. de Lisle 6 The two others..are in religion; the former entered the Order of the Good Shepherd in 1863.
1907 A. B. Teetgen Life & Times Empress Pulcheria xxvi. 220 Eutyches, the superior of a populous monastery outside the walls of Constantinople, had spent practically the whole of his life in religion.
1998 M. P. Magray Transforming Power of Nuns iii. 44 Women did not long remain in religion without a sense of spiritual purpose.

2. Christian Church.

a. A particular religious order or denomination; &#8224;a religious house. Also fig. Now rare.

?c1225 (&#9656;?a1200) Ancrene Riwle (Cleo. C.vi) (1972) 3 Richten hire & smeðen hire is of vh ordre & of uh religion.
c1300 St. Edward Elder (Laud) 192 in C. Horstmann Early S.-Eng. Legendary (1887) 52 (MED), Seint Edward cam..To an holi man þat þere was nei&#541; in an oþur religion.
a1425 (&#9656;?a1400) Chaucer Romaunt Rose (Hunterian) (1891) l. 6352 Somtyme am I Prioresse..And go thurgh all Regiouns Sekyng all religiouns.
1483 Caxton tr. J. de Voragine Golden Legende 426/1 Saynt Rygoberte..ordeyned a relygyon of chanounes and clerkes.
1496 J. Alcock Mons Perfeccionis (de Worde) sig. bv, As hymself for his pryde & enuy was caste oute of the holy relygion of heuen.
1528 T. Cromwell in R. B. Merriman Life & Lett. Cromwell (1902) I. 322 The exchaunge to be made bitwene your colledge in Oxforde and his religion for Saundforde.
1548 Hall's Vnion: Henry VIII f. cxliij, This priest..was receiued into euery Religion with Procession, as though the Legate had been there.
1569 R. Grafton Chron. II. 194 This Religion of Saint Iohns, was greatly preferred, by the fall and suppression of the Templers.
1631 J. Weever Anc. Funerall Monuments 114 If any professed in the said Religion were negligently forgotten.
1687 A. Lovell tr. J. de Thévenot Trav. into Levant i. 12 A Dagger, which the King of Spain sent as a Present to the Religion.
1770 Ann. Reg. 1769 147 Some ships of the religion of Malta.
1858 F. W. Faber Foot of Cross i. 67 There were several false and counterfeit religions, which had troubled the Church about that time.
1902 Builder 27 Sept. 265/1 The sudden spread and popularity of the Franciscan religion in North Italy immediately on the death of Francis..was very remarkable.

&#8224;b. A member of a religious order, spec. a member of the clergy. Obs.

a1250 (&#9656;?a1200) Ancrene Riwle (Nero) (1952) 168 Forto beon so angresful..nis nout god icweme, and ancre ful nomilche uor swuch religiun [c1230 Corpus Cambr. religius] nis nout god icweme.
c1330 Short Metrical Chron. (Royal) 527 in J. Ritson Anc. Eng. Metrical Romanceës (1802) II. 292 (MED), Sethe he delede..To thilke that were povre in londe, That other to povre religiouns.
a1400 (1303) R. Mannyng Handlyng Synne (Harl.) 7556 (MED), Specyaly þat comandeþ he..to bysshopes and persones, To prestys, and ouþer relygyons [v.r. relygyones].
a1400 (1325) Cursor Mundi (Gött.) 22001 (MED), Quatkin man sum euer it es..Or laued or religiun, Clerk, monk, or canun.
&#9656;c1426 J. Audelay Poems (1931) 17 (MED), Herbore þe pore pur charyte, And &#541;ef mete and dreng to þe nede, And cumford hom þat woful be, Ellis be &#541;e no relegyon.
a1500 (1400) T. Chestre Sir Launfal (1930) 427 (MED), Fyfty rewardede relygyons; Fyfty delyuerede pouere prysouns.

&#8224;c. Collectively: people devoted to a religious life. Obs.

1487 (&#9656;a1380) J. Barbour Bruce (St. John's Cambr.) xx. 162 Till religioune of seir statis, For heill of his saull, gaf he Siluir in-to gret quantite.
a1525 (&#9656;c1448) R. Holland Bk. Howlat l. 190 in W. A. Craigie Asloan MS (1925) II. 100 Alkyn chennonis eik of vyer ordouris All maner of religioun ye less & ye maire.
1568 in W. T. Ritchie Bannatyne MS (1928) II. f. 80, All religioun levis in holines.