Why do atheists talk to believers so much?

[Trailblazer]

Regarding the portion I underlined....
Yes, I can feel the blinding radiance of your humility.

No, it does not make all atheists arrogant and all believers humble, my mistake. We all make mistakes. It is admitting them that matters most.

But you have no idea how many atheists have called me gullible, said I am a brainwashed believer, and said they are too smart to fall for a Messenger.

You can do the math yourself as to whether that is arrogant or not.

 

[corynski]

I started this dialogue with @ wandering peacefully on another thread but it was brought to my attention that we were getting off topic for that thread so I am starting a new thread.

@Trailblazer said:
"Mostly what I was wondering about is why “some atheists” spend as much time as they do talking about god and religion, if they have no interest in it.

Trailblazer....... You could read some anthropology to learn of your true human evolution and heritage. Humans have created thousands of gods and goddesses, but they won't 'show up', have you noticed? Therefore no one can agree upon which gods or goddesses are real. Atheists simply prefer to experience reality rather than make-believe, and the scientific method is about as close as we'll get to discovering 'reality' at this time. Science can't really corroborate any of the biblical 'miracles' is one problem, and also Jesus tells many that he will 'return' before such and such, but can't seem to make it back .......

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is a point well taken, but then one might ask why the believers in these religions do not agree among themselves? There is a good reason why people disagree as to their meanings but that in no way proves that the scriptures are not correct. How is it the fault of those who wrote the scriptures that people misinterpreted them after they were written?

There are myriad problems with the Bible and older scriptures. First, they were not written by a Messenger of God, but rather by men who spoke for and about the Messenger of God. The New Testament came to us by way of oral tradition so there is no way to know if Jesus actually uttered those words.

Second, the Bible has been translated and re-translated and re-translated so they have lost a lot of their original meanings. These scriptures do not represent what any God inspired with any degree of specificity, so every word in the Bible cannot be taken literally as the authentic saying of the Prophet.

Given what I said above, I do not expect an external party to consider these scriptures correct, but that does not mean there is nothing in them that is correct. The Baha’i view is that God's Revelation is under His care and protection, so we can be confident that the essence, or essential elements, of what the Bible intended to convey has been recorded and preserved. It does not have to be 100% accurate in order to convey spiritual truth.

What you and other atheists consider outlandish is just what you consider outlandish. That does not define it as outlandish. It is just your personal opinion that it is outlandish. The same applies to the complete lack of evidence for God’s existence. What you and other atheists consider a complete lack of evidence is just what you consider a complete lack of evidence. That does not mean that there is a complete lack of evidence. It is just your personal opinion that there is a complete lack of evidence because you do not SEE the evidence that exists as evidence at all.

What I and other believers see is a lot of evidence for God’s existence; you and other atheists just do not see what we see. That does not mean that it is not there.

The Essence (intrinsic nature) of God (what God is comprised of, where God dwells, how God functions) is unknowable to anyone, including the Messengers. However, we can know “some” of the Attributes of God because they are revealed in scriptures. The Abrahamic religions are in agreement as to these Attributes of God.

Here are some of God’s Attributes that are unique to God’s nature: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, All-powerful, Omnipresent, All-Wise, All-Knowing, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial.

Here are “some” of God’s Attributes that are manifested by the Messengers of God and which can also be manifested by ordinary humans: Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Forgiving, Patient.

Do you really think the small number of atheists in the world (7% of the world population) have that much power?

Again, how can are the scriptures to be blamed for the fact that people cannot agree on what they mean? That does not prove anything about the scriptures themselves; it only says something about the people who are reading them. Truth is truth. What people do to misconstrue what was written has nothing to do with what was actually written on the page.

Why would it matter what you believe anymore than it matters what I believe. Logically speaking, Baha’u’llah was (a) a Manifestation of God, making what He wrote identical to the will of God, or (b) Baha’u’llah was not a Manifestation of God and what He wrote is gibberish.

What you and other atheists consider believe is just what you believe. That does not define it as truth. It is just your personal opinion. Likewise, what I and other Baha’is believe does not define it as truth. It is just what we believe is the truth. The truth just is and it is independent of what we believe about it.

They are different kinds of truths. Scientific truths can be proven but religious truths cannot be proven. All we have is the evidence that indicates that they are true. The salient point is that just because they cannot be demonstrated to be true does not mean they are not true. They might be true or not.

Of course it will never make it to the side that includes things like the value of the gravitational pull of the Earth. Religion is not science. People all have to determine its truth value for themselves, and not everyone looking at the same evidence will come to the same conclusions because we are all very different in how we view the evidence, given variations in our childhood upbringing, heredity, education, and adult experiences. However, if people do not even look at the evidence but rather just assume that there is nothing worth looking at then there is no way they will ever know anything about it.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103​

(CONTINUED ON NEXT POST...)

How do you educate about bahaulah when you cant (as repeated again) describe the nature of the source with whom makes him important and more than human to begin with?

I can read anything about bahaullah the person, the human. But I have no clue what bahaullah is when you cant even describe the source of his divinity.

If the bible is currupted, why is in the bahai faith?

Why do you go off people to judge scriptural accuracy?

Thats ah uge mistake christians and bahai do; judge athenticity by people (we need to maket he word christian or the world needs peace under one god) rather than of the message

As if man can corrupted divinity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

For one thing, we can meet the roofer, but not the Messenger. For another thing, the claim they make is not similar.

Something interesting...

1. Does one need to be dead for him to fulfil a claim the person isnt alive to correct you whether it is true?

2. What about ones death maks them more divine then if you mett the new messenger today and acted just like everyone else-like the roofer?

3. What exactly about being alive and face to face invalidates divinity?

 

[wandering peacefully]

I started this dialogue with @ wandering peacefully on another thread but it was brought to my attention that we were getting off topic for that thread so I am starting a new thread.

@Trailblazer said:
"Mostly what I was wondering about is why “some atheists” spend as much time as they do talking about god and religion, if they have no interest in it. I am sure there are as many reasons as there are atheists. From talking to as many atheists as I have as long as I have I know that some atheists would like to believe in God if they had “what they consider” to be sufficient evidence that God exists, but most atheists are not really that concerned about whether god exists or not, or so it seems. Maybe they have given up that there will ever be sufficient evidence and maybe some do not care."

That is probably true. There are only a limited amount of reasons atheists talk about religion and gods compared to the number of reasons religious people talk about religions.

I can understand why atheists would not want these things as I would not want these things either, but I do not understand how talking to people with religious beliefs would change these things if they were imminent. It would seem as if political involvement would be more likely to change these things.

Maybe you meant to say that theirs is not the only "truth" because other religions also have truth? I can agree with that because I believe that all religions have “some truth” to offer. However, it is logically impossible that everything that all religions teach is “the truth” because religions contradict each another.

If you mean more beneficial uses than just talking about beliefs I can agree with that. I believe that faith without works is dead. What would these actions be that would benefit the believer and the rest of humanity?

That is rather vague. What part of reality do you think that believers are not seeing? Admittedly, one reason I talk to atheists is that I want them to see more of reality than the material world reality they see now because I do not believe this is the most important reality. I believe the spiritual reality is our true reality but that is a big subject, and it is based upon the premise that God exists and there is an afterlife (spiritual world).

Yes, I know this is the motive for some atheists because they have told me so. I think these stories you refer to are from the Bible. Why is it that atheists cannot understand that there are “other religions” that are not Bible-based? Why is it that atheists cannot understand that perhaps the Bible has some truth in it and that the Bible has been misinterpreted by those who believe in it, namely Christians? It is unjust to blame God for the doctrines of the Church that arose out of councils who decided what the Bible means. What about all the other religions? I suppose that atheists have to say they are all stories made up by man if there is no god.

For over five years now, I have been posting to atheists 24/7 on several forums and asking them what they would expect for evidence of God, but so far I have received no answer that makes any sense. God is not a material being so what kind of “hard evidence” could we ever have that proves that God exists? This expectation of objective evidence of God is completely illogical, and atheists don’t even realize how illogical it is.

If an omnipotent God exists, that God is the one who decides what kind of evidence it will provide to prove its existence to humans. This is logic 101 stuff. To expect any evidence other than what God provides is unreasonable. The only evidence that God has ever provided is the Messengers (Prophets) God sends who establish religions.

I do understand that some people cannot believe in God based upon the claims of a Messenger but I really do not understand why not, because there really is no other way that God could communicate messages to humanity, if that was what God wanted to do. I have asked atheists repeatedly how God could communicate messages to humanity in any way other than using Messengers. The only answer I have received is that God could communicate directly to everyone. But how is that any different from God communicating to a Messenger? Why should God communicate the same message to everyone, when God can instead communicate to one man who can write that message down and make it available to everyone?

I can understand why this would be problematic if the Messenger was just an ordinary man but the premise upon which my religion is based is that the Messengers of God are more than human. They have a divine mind and that is why they can receive and convey messages from God to man.

You can only speak for yourself and other atheists you know personally. I know for a fact that many atheists are interested in knowing if there is a god because they told me so. Some are also interested in my religion and they researched it for themselves. I am not saying that they are going to believe it, but at least they are giving it a fair shot.

I can tell you for a fact that the reason they do not believe in it is because they do not like the “idea” of Messengers of God, but not one atheist has ever given me a good reason why God cannot and would not use a Messenger to represent Him and reveal a message to humanity. That is what I am still waiting for, a logical reason. To say that they cannot trust that a Messenger is from God is not a logical reason. That is just an emotional reason born out of fear of being wrong about the Messenger. But what if they are wrong and God does use Messengers to communicate?

Yes, as matter of fact, many atheists I have spoken with said that they are looking for God and asked me to show them the way. What do you think we discuss 24/7, the weather? Most of the atheists I talk to are not concerned about social or political issues, only about god.

Oh dear. I didn't think I was gone that long. You had asked why atheists talked to theists about gods and religions. I gave several reasons. But I see this answer I gave has turned into yet another thread about messengers and bahai. There sure are a lot of those. So maybe the question should be why do theists talk to atheists if they are firm in their beliefs and have no reason to look into atheism?

I see you think some atheists have asked you about showing them then way to bahai doctrine. And you believe you are helping them find God and your religion. I'm sorry I don't really believe that. I haven't seen any evidence of that here. Do you have evidence of that I may have missed? If not, it really isn't a good idea to claim that.

Maybe you meant adherents of some other faiths have asked you about your doctrines and how to find God? I could believe that although it isn't apparent in this forum. You said you have other forums you talk in. Can you post a link to the posts where atheists asked you how to find God and about your beliefs who you helped to become believers? That would be interesting to see.

As far as "not liking messengers" that seems a bit silly to think atheists don't like something they don't believe is real. Remember that just because you believe something is true doesn't make it true. Truth and reality operate independently of what you think or believe.

And if there is a God it sure could operate outside of what you believe it does. It could easily send direct messages to everyone just as easily to one person. And if you think humans are incapable of understanding messages from God themselves how is hearing it from a "messenger" going to make it any easier to understand? Thenr messenger would be communicating in the same language that God spoke to him in right?

Certainly it would take a longer and be less efficient than just directly telling people who God wants to follow him and his instructions ?

Even if as you say not everyone deserves to know about God, he certainly could pick his favorites and communicate directly to that group. Imo that would be the logical way to go about it. Just as if one were at a football game in a huge crowd and a message was needed to get to all or some of the crowd that a child went missing, would it make more sense to use the intercom to announce that the child was missing or tell one person and have them try to spread it around to their entire stadium? I think some common sense needs to be used when considering these claims.

Anyway, I see them thread has moved away from your original question and into arguing about the correctness of what you believe. So I'll exit the conversation and let you concentrate on proving you are right and have all the correct answers. This atheists is not looking for a god or your personal beliefs. It's not just the bible, it's any man-made doctrines including bahai I have no interest in. I was only trying to help you as you seemed perplexed about why atheists talk to theists.

They day there is objective proof that no one can dispute and everyone gets the same proof and message is the day I will believe in a god.

Thanks for your opinions and thoughts.

 

[Looncall]

Whatever people want to talk about.

Nobody can understand Baha'u'llah's nature as a Manifestation of God. It is beyond human understanding. We can only understand His human nature.

Nobody knows the Essence of God, God's intrinsic nature. God's Essence is immeasurably exalted above anything humans can either understand or describe. No man can ever hope to know anything about God's unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of God's Essence has resulted in complete bewilderment, in hopelessness and failure.

Sounds like a very ingenious scam to me. One is expected to believe something you can't even describe.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You cannot compare communication between you and your children (human to human) to communication between God and humans because God is not a human.

You just don't like the idea that God doesn't love some people enough to do what is necessary to make them aware of His existence. You have even said as much yourself, like this:

God is not going to CHANGE His time honored method of communication to humanity that has worked for everyone in the world except a few atheists just because you do not LIKE IT.

Real love wouldn't require that "time honored methods" get in the way of proving to someone that you love them in the way they need it to be proven. If my own child were having some difficulties in life - perhaps they had a mental/physical handicap - and they needed special attention from me in order that my love be known and experienced. They weren't like 97% of children. Do you honestly think I wouldn't try EVERYTHING I could to make them know I was there for them and loved them? You need to stop making excuses for God. This analogy works, whether you like it or not. Whether God is human or not. You say God loves... by His actions, it is proven that He doesn't. What he "feels" is nowhere near the love that I know and understand. It doesn't matter how you try to frame it. God has framed it just fine... and does not at all need for you to speak for Him on this score. He's made Himself abundantly clear.

And just as you claim "this is the reality I experience" when speaking of God and the spiritual realms of your religion - have you never once stopped to think that God not loving, God not caring, God playing favorites - that those things are the reality I experience when I try to pretend that God is real? Questions I can't help but ask. Accusations I can't help but level at Him. You can say I am no judge of God all you want... but I am. For my own purposes I am the judge of God... and the verdict is a harsh one. You don't need to acknowledge my judgment, need not abide by my verdict. I don't care. Not one bit. God, if He exists, is completely and utterly worthless to me. He has damned Himself to be so by the words He allows or inspires His followers to speak. By the words He has allowed Himself to be represented by in writing. By the actions He has purportedly taken and those He refuses to take. God is a failure of the most epic proportions in my eyes. It's either that... or He doesn't exist. And I truly feel I have ALL of the evidence on my side to support BOTH of those scenarios. Which is why I am atheist.

With that I do not believe there is any reason to continue responding point by point. I have laid my position out clearly, and your words continue to change none of the things I feel regarding God, his stories and the situations described both in text and through believer's words.[/QUOTE]

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer said:
"Mostly what I was wondering about is why “some atheists” spend as much time as they do talking about god and religion, if they have no interest in it.

Trailblazer....... You could read some anthropology to learn of your true human evolution and heritage. Humans have created thousands of gods and goddesses, but they won't 'show up', have you noticed? Therefore no one can agree upon which gods or goddesses are real. Atheists simply prefer to experience reality rather than make-believe, and the scientific method is about as close as we'll get to discovering 'reality' at this time. Science can't really corroborate any of the biblical 'miracles' is one problem, and also Jesus tells many that he will 'return' before such and such, but can't seem to make it back .......

Humans imagined gods or goddesses existed, so they created them in their own minds. They never existed in reality; in reality there has always been One God, not several.

The fact that many people have imagined gods or goddesses does not prove that there is not One Real God.

The Real God does not show up because He is dwells in His habitation of glory, immensely exalted beyond all that can ever be perceived.

There is the material reality that science can study and there is the spiritual reality that science cannot study because it is immaterial.

Jesus never promised to return, not even once. Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.​

Jesus said we would see the Son of man coming in the clouds, but He was not referring to Himself.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
​

Did you ever wonder why Jesus did not say “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory?”
The title Son of man does not apply exclusively to Jesus.
Jesus was referring to another Person, another Comforter, also known as the Spirit of truth.

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.​

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you educate about bahaulah when you cant (as repeated again) describe the nature of the source with whom makes him important and more than human to begin with?

I can read anything about bahaullah the person, the human. But I have no clue what bahaullah is when you cant even describe the source of his divinity.

Nobody knows the nature of God and nobody can understand the divine nature of Baha’u’llah because both are above the level of human comprehension.

A Manifestation of God such as Baha’u’llah is another level of creation, between a human and God. We are only able to understand what is on our own level and below our level. So humans can understand other humans, animals, plants and minerals.

A rock cannot understand the nature of a plant.

A plant cannot understand the nature an animal.

An animal cannot understand the nature a human.

A human cannot understand the divine nature of a Manifestation of God such as Baha’u’llah because a Manifestation of Godis another order of creation above a human.However, a human can understand the human nature of Baha’u’llah because we have that in common with Baha’u’llah.

Baha’u’llah could not understand the nature of God because God is another order of creation above a Manifestation of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Something interesting...

1. Does one need to be dead for him to fulfil a claim the person isnt alive to correct you whether it is true?

2. What about ones death maks them more divine then if you mett the new messenger today and acted just like everyone else-like the roofer?

3. What exactly about being alive and face to face invalidates divinity?

1. No, Baha’u’llah fulfilled the claim while He was alive.
2. Baha’u’llah is not more divine because he is dead physically.
3. Being alive and face to face does not invalidate divinity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sounds like a very ingenious scam to me. One is expected to believe something you can't even describe.

God does not expect you to believe in Him... that is a choice.......

Those who cannot live with mysteries will probably decline belief in God.

“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart, from now until the end that hath no end, and with all the concentrated intelligence and understanding which the greatest minds have attained in the past or will attain in the future, this divinely ordained and subtle Reality, this sign of the revelation of the All-Abiding, All-Glorious God, thou wilt fail to comprehend its mystery or to appraise its virtue. Having recognized thy powerlessness to attain to an adequate understanding of that Reality which abideth within thee, thou wilt readily admit the futility of such efforts as may be attempted by thee, or by any of the created things, to fathom the mystery of the Living God, the Day Star of unfading glory, the Ancient of everlasting days. This confession of helplessness which mature contemplation must eventually impel every mind to make is in itself the acme of human understanding, and marketh the culmination of man’s development.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 165-166​

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh dear. I didn't think I was gone that long. You had asked why atheists talked to theists about gods and religions. I gave several reasons. But I see this answer I gave has turned into yet another thread about messengers and bahai. There sure are a lot of those. So maybe the question should be why do theists talk to atheists if they are firm in their beliefs and have no reason to look into atheism?

The “honest truth” is that I started this thread because just below your post on the other thread someone posted that we were getting off topic. I felt it impolite to be so far off the topic of the OP on a thread I did not start so I decided it was best to start a new thread... As I did it, I said to my husband “I am doing this against my better judgment” and what I meant was that I predicted it would engender a lot of posts that I would have to answer because when I get a post, I feel compelled to answer it, especially on a thread I started. As luck (or God) would have it, I am not presently posting on the other forum I was posting on so I have more time to respond to posts on this forum.

FYI, all the threads I start seem to turn into talk about Messengers and Baha’i, but that is not intentional. Most of the threads I have started on this forum (about three of them) were precipitated by thoughts I had as the result of posting to one atheist on another forum. He kept saying that all atheists would agree with him that a “real god” would never be so stupid as to use Messengers, so I wanted to see if atheists would agree with him.

That is a good question, why do theists talk to atheists if they are firm in their beliefs and have no reason to look into atheism? I can only speak for myself. I am very spontaneous, so I just respond to posts posted to me, so if the atheists want to post to me, I assume there is a “reason” although I won’t pretend to know what it is, since I cannot know unless they tell me the reason. There have been times when I asked and they told me and a few of my friends came clean and told me they were trying to “rescue me” from my Baha’i beliefs and turn me into an atheist. I appreciated the honesty although I am not completely convinced that is the only reason they posted to me so much. I think only God knows the real reason, because God knows all of us better than we know ourselves. So I think that maybe on a subconscious level they have not given up on believing in God and that has been confirmed by them from time to time so my intuition was not altogether wrong.

I think that probably most theists post to atheists hoping deep down that they might eventually convince them there is a God and I do not deny that I think this way too. However, I would never want anyone to believe in God unless they decided to by virtue of their own free will. I would never want them to believe God or the Baha’i Faith because I convinced them, which is why I am not trying to convince them. This is very freeing because I can converse with anyone without caring one iota what they believe or disbelieve. As such, I will present my case for God and Baha’u’llah but I do not consider my posts a debate, since I am not trying to win an argument.

But that is certainly not the “only reason” I post to atheists. I have a fascination with what people think and why they think that way, and I like looking at things from many different perspectives. I also like making friends and I seem to get along with atheists better than with other believers... You know what they say about opposites attract. Also, talking only to people who agree with you all the time can be really boring.

I see you think some atheists have asked you about showing them then way to bahai doctrine. And you believe you are helping them find God and your religion. I'm sorry I don't really believe that. I haven't seen any evidence of that here. Do you have evidence of that I may have missed? If not, it really isn't a good idea to claim that.

I covered some of that above, but I will elucidate further. If they are asking me or engaging me in dialogue about God or Baha’i, then yes, I think I am helping them because I assume they want to know what I believe about God and Baha’i. If they are just playing a game and they are not really interested, I cannot know that unless and until it finally comes to the fore. I never assume people are playing games because I do not play games, and I do not really care if they are playing games, because it is on them if they are insincere, not on me. It all seems to come out in the wash eventually because dialogues do end if they are not going anywhere.

Of course I believe I would be helping them if they decided to believe in God and/or the Baha’i Faith because I believe that these are the single most important decisions anyone can make in their life; farmore important than getting married, having children, going to college, or having a career.

One thing about me is that you will never catch me being dishonest about my thoughts or motives and I do not care what people think about them, because honesty is the foundation of all virtues. That is besides the fact that there is no reason for me to lie because I am not playing games. I am very serious about what I believe, partly because I have struggled for decades to get to where I am at today with God and the Baha’i Faith. I was angry at God for many years and I shirked the Baha’i Faith for decades because I do not like organized religion. I came back to God and Baha’i of my own free will, when the time was right. I am a firm believer in free will and that nobody should ever do anything against their own free will.

I never even think of why an atheist would be posting to me because I cannot know why, unless they tell me why. It does not matter one iota to me because it is not my job to psychoanalyze other people, even though I have the credentials to do so. I have my own spiritual path to tend to but I am always available if somebody wants to talk to me, as I am sure you have seen. I grow spiritually with every interaction because I learn something and often it challenges me to be more tolerant and more humble.

Maybe you meant adherents of some other faiths have asked you about your doctrines and how to find God? I could believe that although it isn't apparent in this forum. You said you have other forums you talk in. Can you post a link to the posts where atheists asked you how to find God and about your beliefs who you helped to become believers? That would be interesting to see.

No, it is not usually adherents to other religions who ask me about God and my Baha’i beliefs. There was a time when I posted almost daily to one Christian and there was a time I posted to some Jewish people occasionally, but the bulk of the posts I have had for the last five years have been to atheists and agnostics. I am not claiming that all of them were interested in God or my beliefs because I do not know, but I know that some were. Either that or they were just playing games. I did find out that some atheists were playing games, but they only made themselves look foolish because they were dishonest and I was never anything but up front with them.

I never said I “helped anyone” become a believer. I only ever said that I know that some of them have said they would like to believe in God if they had the evidence they require. Messengers do not cut it for atheists as evidence that God exists, and that is consistent across all forums I have been on.

Here is the link to my forum and you can see some of the posts and come to your own conclusions. Maybe you would have some insight I do not have, which would be most welcome: The Spiritual Horizon

My atheist friends come and go and right now they have gone and I am not sure if they will come back. I never know. I just leave it up to them if they want to post to me and if not I do not even post on my forum.

The other forum I have been posting on which would have more recent posts to different atheists is on this link: The CrossCurrents Forum

If you want to know my handle and their handles post to me in a Conversation.

(CONTINUED ON NEXT POST...)

 

[Trailblazer]

As far as "not liking messengers" that seems a bit silly to think atheists don't like something they don't believe is real. Remember that just because you believe something is true doesn't make it true. Truth and reality operate independently of what you think or believe.

When I say they do not “like Messengers” I mean they do not like the “idea” of God using Messengers to communicate because they want God to communicate in another way. Many of them want God to communicate directly with everyone, and that is the only communication from God they will accept.

I fully agree. Truth and reality operate independently of what I think or believe; but conversely, truth and reality operate independently of what atheists disbelieve.

And if there is a God it sure could operate outside of what you believe it does. It could easily send direct messages to everyone just as easily to one person. And if you think humans are incapable of understanding messages from God themselves how is hearing it from a "messenger" going to make it any easier to understand? The messenger would be communicating in the same language that God spoke to him in right?

Certainly it would take a longer and be less efficient than just directly telling people who God wants to follow him and his instructions ?

Of course if there is a God it could operate outside of what I believe it does. The 100 dollar question is – does He?

I have explained to atheists so many times why God uses Messengers instead of communicating directly to everyone, I could write the posts in my sleep. There is more than one reason. One reason is that Messengers are both divine and human and they have a divine mind that is able to receive messages from God and convey them to humans in a way that all humans can comprehend them. Ordinary humans cannot understand God directly because we do not have a divine mind. I assume God did not make us that way because God never planned to communicate to humans directly. Another reason God uses Messengers is because God wants it to be a choice whether to believe in Him or not. If God spoke to everyone directly, God would in effect be forcing His will upon them. Not all people even want to believe in God, so that would be really disrespecting out free will right to choose. Those reasons were revealed in the Baha’i Writings, in so many words.

Although this is not in the Baha’i Writings, it makes sense to me that another reason God uses Messengers is because the Messenger can make the same exact message available to everyone; so why would God send the same exact message to everyone – all of 7.44 billion people in the world – when God can instead reveal that message to one Messenger who can make that message available to everyone? Could everyone record all the 15,000 Tablets Baha’u’llah wrote, even if they could understand them? Also, as the result of God using a Messenger, people come together in a group and have a religion where they can share their ideas and beliefs about the scriptures and work together for a common purpose. If everyone got their own separate message they would be islands onto themselves and there would be no need for community. That would never promote unity of the human race.

Even if as you say not everyone deserves to know about God, he certainly could pick his favorites and communicate directly to that group. Imo that would be the logical way to go about it. Just as if one were at a football game in a huge crowd and a message was needed to get to all or some of the crowd that a child went missing, would it make more sense to use the intercom to announce that the child was missing or tell one person and have them try to spread it around to their entire stadium? I think some common sense needs to be used when considering these claims.

Announcing that there is a missing child is not at all analogous to God announcing that He exists. It might seem logical to you that God would give certain deserving people a direct message, but the huge caveat is that God does not want anyone to believe in Him unless they search and find Him using their own innate intelligence and decide to believe of their own free will. These are the criteria set forth by God, according to Baha’u’llah. God would not be doing anyone an favor by making Himself known because that takes away the need for the effort that people need to exert to prove that they are worthy of knowing God exists. Of course God already knows who is worthy and unworthy, but God wants us to prove our worthiness to ourselves and thereby become worthy.

But there is some truth to the fact that God does have favorites because God guides those He chooses to guide. God guides those who are worthy, those who make an effort. There is more to it than this, because I was guided to become a Baha’i although I exerted very little effort to that end, but maybe God knew what kind of an effort I was going to put forth 42 years later.

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.””
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267​

This makes perfect sense and it is justice because everything we do in this life requires an effort, and we are rewarded for our efforts. Why should belief in God be any different?

Anyway, I see the thread has moved away from your original question and into arguing about the correctness of what you believe. So I'll exit the conversation and let you concentrate on proving you are right and have all the correct answers. This atheists is not looking for a god or your personal beliefs. It's not just the bible, it's any man-made doctrines including bahai I have no interest in. I was only trying to help you as you seemed perplexed about why atheists talk to theists.

I am certainly not trying to prove I am right or that I have all the answers. The fact that I believe that the Baha’i Faith is the religion God has revealed for this new age and it supersedes all the older religions is just what I believe. I do not need to prove it to anyone because Baha’u’llah has not given me that job, and I do what Baha’u’llah has enjoined me to do, I do not follow my ego. The only jobs I have is to proclaim that Baha’u’llah has come and answer questions if people ask, which is called teaching.

You are probably right about atheists not looking for a god or religious beliefs, but with all due respect, I think you should let them speak for themselves. I know for a fact that many atheists would like to believe in God if there was evidence. There are so many atheists who have told me this over the years that it is not something I am likely to be mistaken about. The 100 dollar question is why they would keep posting to me, knowing I do not have any evidence other than the Messengers. It is not as if I have ever kept that a secret.

They day there is objective proof that no one can dispute and everyone gets the same proof and message is the day I will believe in a god.

That day will never some, so you are smart to just live your life the best you can as if there was no god. I am sure you live a very principled life... That is half the battle.

Thanks for your opinions and thoughts.

Likewise.

 

[JadedClockw0rk]

I believe that all have an innate desire to find God ,because of this temporary separation in a suffering realm and those who reject God completely have valid reasons, and stuggling pains circumstances in their lives ,that dissmiss the fantastic the happily ever after notion is a childish flight of fancy,

this is once again not their fault, they have not experienced anything of that nature infact the contrary suffering and disappointment, painfully fighting the idea that darkness prevails, often becoming humanitarian and developing kind and loving morals for sake of others, expressing the lack of need for a moral authority, yet all the while in these interactions with reality and it's propaganda and subjective experience I think deep inside the desire for there to know a loving God surprise happily ever after on the horizon underlies all the other accumulated struggles that have led to the utter denial of anything outside of the empirical .

Honestly perhaps it is just me ,because I myself, at one time denied all my spiritual experiences and claimed to be atheist during some of the hardest years of my life, but in no way does that speak for everyone we are all uniwun I just think we also all desire to know a loving God and in my opinion that's because we came from God and God is love.

 

[Trailblazer]

You just don't like the idea that God doesn't love some people enough to do what is necessary to make them aware of His existence. You have even said as much yourself, like this:
God is not going to CHANGE His time honored method of communication to humanity that has worked for everyone in the world except a few atheists just because you do not LIKE IT.

That is not what I said. It does not mean that God does not love atheists just because God won't change His Method of communication to make them aware of His existence. Love is not about giving people what they want; it is about giving people what is best for them. Do you give your kids everything they want just to prove you love them?

Real love wouldn't require that "time honored methods" get in the way of proving to someone that you love them in the way they need it to be proven. If my own child were having some difficulties in life - perhaps they had a mental/physical handicap - and they needed special attention from me in order that my love be known and experienced. They weren't like 97% of children. Do you honestly think I wouldn't try EVERYTHING I could to make them know I was there for them and loved them? You need to stop making excuses for God. This analogy works, whether you like it or not. Whether God is human or not. You say God loves... by His actions, it is proven that He doesn't. What he "feels" is nowhere near the love that I know and understand. It doesn't matter how you try to frame it. God has framed it just fine... and does not at all need for you to speak for Him on this score. He's made Himself abundantly clear.

No, it is not “real love” to do for others what they can do for themselves and what is beneficial for them to do for themselves. Is it real love to keep your kids at home after they are grown up instead of allowing them to go out on their own, go to college, get married, get a job, and raise a family?

Your analogy falls flat on its face for more than one reason. First, you cannot compare God to human and human to human relationships because God is not a human; but even if you could, your analogy fails because most people are not handicapped. They have a brain and free will and they can use it to search for evidence of God. Why would God expect them to believe in Him if He did not create them with that capacity? Read this carefully:

“Suffer not yourselves to be wrapt in the dense veils of your selfish desires, inasmuch as I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143​

And just as you claim "this is the reality I experience" when speaking of God and the spiritual realms of your religion - have you never once stopped to think that God not loving, God not caring, God playing favorites - that those things are the reality I experience when I try to pretend that God is real? Questions I can't help but ask. Accusations I can't help but level at Him. You can say I am no judge of God all you want... but I am. For my own purposes I am the judge of God... and the verdict is a harsh one. You don't need to acknowledge my judgment, need not abide by my verdict. I don't care. Not one bit. God, if He exists, is completely and utterly worthless to me. He has damned Himself to be so by the words He allows or inspires His followers to speak. By the words He has allowed Himself to be represented by in writing. By the actions He has purportedly taken and those He refuses to take. God is a failure of the most epic proportions in my eyes. It's either that... or He doesn't exist. And I truly feel I have ALL of the evidence on my side to support BOTH of those scenarios. Which is why I am atheist.

I really do not know what you expect God to do. I really do not know why you think you know that God is not doing anything. There are plenty of believers who would testify otherwise. Is their experience worth nothing?

You are free to believe anything you want to about God and say whatever you want to say about God. That is precisely what you have a brain and free will.

What has your life been like? Do you have children? Do you have a good job? I could never have children given what I have had to endure in my life. Do you know how much that hurts?

I won’t even tell you the HELL I have been through all my life because you would say I was trying to get sympathy. And it ain’t over yet. But facts are facts and the psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors and social workers can attest to them.... My life has been a holy living hell... What do you have to complain about? What did God do to you? If anyone should be complaining about God it should be me, and I did, believe me I did. For many, many years, I hated God for allowing me to suffer as I have.

Meanwhile, all the people I have been surrounded by daily for over 40 years of my career were happy and had no such problems as I have had. The management at the federal job I worked in back in the early 1980s tried to put me out on permanent disability because my depression was that bad even with antidepressants,and they did not think I would ever be able to work. But I fought it tooth and nail and I got better, slowly but surely...

For over 15 years all I did was “recovery work.” I was a Baha’i during these years but I abandoned the Baha’i faith to do my recovery work. Clearly, I was not fit to be a Baha’i in that condition, even though none of it was my fault. Both my parents and both by siblings also suffered from major depression and anxiety, it is hereditary. On top of that neither parent wanted any of us children. It was a setup for hell.

Do you know what? I was handicapped and so was my brother and sister, and that could well be the reason why God guided all of us to the Baha’i Faith. So don’t tell me God does not love people and care about them. Have you ever cried out to God for help, or do you just expect Him to come running after you? I know former atheists who are now believers who have cried out and help came from God shortly thereafter. They got signs from God, incontrovertible signs, and they never looked back.... Funny thing, the very first thing both of them did was come to a Baha’i forum and they also went to a Christian forum and studied the Bible.

With that I do not believe there is any reason to continue responding point by point. I have laid my position out clearly, and your words continue to change none of the things I feel regarding God, his stories and the situations described both in text and through believer's words.

I am not trying to change how you feel about God -- been there, done that. But I finally realized I was just shooting myself in the foot to hate God. I do not expect that to happen to you. I had to make a suicide attempt in June 2014 before I finally realized that there was nowhere left to turn but to God... It has been all uphill since then, with a few bumps in the road. Mind you, before that I had been going to counselors for many, many years but they did not help me at all. I have not been to a counselor since.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Nobody knows the nature of God and nobody can understand the divine nature of Baha’u’llah because both are above the level of human comprehension.

A Manifestation of God such as Baha’u’llah is another level of creation, between a human and God. We are only able to understand what is on our own level and below our level. So humans can understand other humans, animals, plants and minerals.

A rock cannot understand the nature of a plant.

A plant cannot understand the nature an animal.

An animal cannot understand the nature a human.

A human cannot understand the divine nature of a Manifestation of God such as Baha’u’llah because a Manifestation of Godis another order of creation above a human.However, a human can understand the human nature of Baha’u’llah because we have that in common with Baha’u’llah.

Baha’u’llah could not understand the nature of God because God is another order of creation above a Manifestation of God.

Be direct.
No bold.
I can read.

Meaning, you cannot. How can you educate when you cannot know the nature of god as the foundation for any conversation about god-beliefs?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

1. No, Baha’u’llah fulfilled the claim while He was alive.
2. Baha’u’llah is not more divine because he is dead physically.
3. Being alive and face to face does not invalidate divinity.

If he were alive today, how would you treat him that you would not treat others not because they are people but because they are not divine? (How do you tell the difference given he is more than human?)

That would mean Pagan gods are divine as well as Shinto and African gods are just as divine and worth worshiping as Bahaullah?

What happened to divinity to when, today, there is no divine person like bahaullah as there was not too longer ago?

What year invailidated the posibility of religious claims of divinity today that did not exist not even a thousand years ago?

Does divinity like bahaullah exist today?

If so, where?
If not, why not?

 

[Trailblazer]

Be direct.
No bold.
I can read.

Meaning, you cannot. How can you educate when you cannot know the nature of god as the foundation for any conversation about god-beliefs?

NOBODY knows the nature of God. I cannot tell you something I do not know. I told you this numerous times. Why do you keep asking?

I do not know how much more direct I can be.

I am not trying to educate anyone. I am just responding to posts.

 

[Trailblazer]

Does divinity like bahaullah exist today?

If so, where?
If not, why not?

No, there is no divinity like Baha'u'llah in the world today because we don't need one. We have the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Humans imagined gods or goddesses existed, so they created them in their own minds. They never existed in reality; in reality there has always been One God, not several.

The fact that many people have imagined gods or goddesses does not prove that there is not One Real God.

It doesn't prove this, no, but it does seem like your god is part of a larger trend.

"There have been nearly 3,000 gods so far but only yours actually exists.

"The others are silly made-up nonsense.

"But not yours.

"Yours is real."

- Ricky Gervais