Why do Athiests challenge Thiests?

[Thana]

I don't usually tell anybody I am Hindu unless they ask. I'm not ashamed or anything, but it's 'need to know' basis. I just don't want to rock the boat with anybody.

I feel certain that if you were trying to proselytize with a group of Atheists, they will stand firm in their views and won't allow you to 'convert' them and vice versa.

People just have their own ways...their own beliefs.

It's admirable to want to 'share the love around', but most people are happy being who they are and doing what they do.

I don't understand why Christians so actively try to convert others to Christianity. There's no disrespect here, just curious too.

I realise that your religion gives love, hope, joy, grace, bliss etc, but so does mine and you could/would more than likely say 'that's the deceiver, not God', but I don't believe that.

You could try and make me Christian until you are blue in the face, but it will never work. Why? because I am a Hindu....because I am totally enamoured by my avatar...

So, you found salvation in Jesus. That is very nice, very good...but others are just 'not ready yet'. Look at it that way.

It's difficult trying to contain all this emotion/love inside...trust me, I know, but that doesn't mean others are going to appreciate this, want this, or feel the same way.

I think that if people were meant to be Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or whatever...unless they were born into it and had no choice, the religion actually chooses them when the time is ripe.

One of the things that puts of many from becoming Christian, is how hard they push it. If they didn't do that, I feel there would be more Christians and other Faiths wouldn't resent them so much for what is no more than 'marketing God'.

You bring up a reasonable and convincing argument.

A part of me knows I shouldn't try, A part of me knows I won't succeed, But I want so badly for others to feel how I feel! It's better than anything in the world, And I want to share it with them.

I want for them what I have for myself, Sometimes I even feel sad that I have it and others don't. If I could give it to them, I would in a heart beat, But I know it's something they must find for themselves.

It's just.. frustrating I suppose.

But I wholly agree with what you're saying, And you reminded me of something Ghandi said.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" ~ Mahatma Gandhi

 

[Thana]

You'll need to grow thicker skin to survive here. All gods in this place get ravaged and ridiculed daily. (Which is to say, all posters' personal opinions about God get ravaged every day.)

Most of us consider that a good thing. We're not here to worship our God. We're here to kick God around and see how He handles Himself.

But religious people are not their Gods, So you're really just kicking around people, Not their God.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

But religious people are not their Gods, So you're really just kicking around people, Not their God.

People see it in different ways. I think we all create our God, inside our heads.

So I can say that I'm kicking you around or that I'm kicking your God around -- same thing.

Of course, what I would really say is that I'm challenging you to present a coherent God, to marshal your words -- which are our only tools here -- and present your God in a way which seems truer than my God.

If I call your God concept vile, as the other member did, that's not insulting your God. It's more like a complaint that you have misstepped in building your God concept. Or an assertion that he would not build or embrace a God like that one.

 

[Koldo]

You bring up a reasonable and convincing argument.

A part of me knows I shouldn't try, A part of me knows I won't succeed, But I want so badly for others to feel how I feel! It's better than anything in the world, And I want to share it with them.

I want for them what I have for myself, Sometimes I even feel sad that I have it and others don't. If I could give it to them, I would in a heart beat, But I know it's something they must find for themselves.

It's just.. frustrating I suppose.

But I wholly agree with what you're saying, And you reminded me of something Ghandi said.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" ~ Mahatma Gandhi

I think nearly everyone, and I am including even atheists, feel this way one time or another, eventually.

 

[Thana]

People see it in different ways. I think we all create our God, inside our heads.

So I can say that I'm kicking you around or that I'm kicking your God around -- same thing.

Of course, what I would really say is that I'm challenging you to present a coherent God, to marshal your words -- which are our only tools here -- and present your God in a way which seems truer than my God.

If I call your God concept vile, as the other member did, that's not insulting your God. It's more like a complaint that you have misstepped in building your God concept. Or an assertion that he would not build or embrace a God like that one.

Let me put this to you because I'm curious -
If we created our God/s, Why wouldn't we create 'better' Gods. More lenient, Or appealing, Or heck even better looking God/s?
And if we create God/s, Why don't we create other things in our head? Like a ghost, An imaginary friend, Vampires, Monsters, Shining pretty lights?

If we shape our reality on with one thing, Why not another and another?


Yes, I suppose words are the only weapons we have when defending or whatever with our God/s.

Yes but, Don't you think he could have just said something else like, I disagree, Or I don't know something else. I know he knew it would offend me, Of course it would. But he did it anyway, Is that not deliberate provocation?

 

[Thana]

I think nearly everyone, and I am including even atheists, feel this way one time or another, eventually.

Yes, I believe you're right.
I suppose Athiests see Thiests as blind, And Thiests see Athiests as blind.

It's hard to have a debate with hope of any definite conclusion to it when you lay it bare like that.

Sucks.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, I believe you're right.
I suppose Athiests see Thiests as blind, And Thiests see Athiests as blind.
It's hard to have a debate with hope of any definite conclusion to it when you lay it bare like that.
Sucks.

It sucks only if one needs to convert the other.
But if one doesn't mind some diversity of thought, then it's interesting instead of sucky.

 

[Thana]

It sucks only if one needs to convert the other.
But if one doesn't mind some diversity of thought, then it's interesting instead of sucky.

But is that not the intention of both sides?
Or are we debating just because we like debating?

 

[Revoltingest]

But is that not the intention of both sides?

Note all.

Or are we debating just because we like debating?

Some debate to win, while others discuss for fun.

 

[Thana]

Some debate to win, while others discuss for fun.

Yeah I suppose you're right.
I mean, I wouldn't mind helping others come to God.
But my main reason for joining was to learn, I'm fascinated by Athiesm and other non-Christian/Jewish religions.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I think nearly everyone, and I am including even atheists, feel this way one time or another, eventually.

Yeap. I feel the same way, even with members of my own Faith...even with fellow Shaivites!

There's the old saying 'you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink'.

Sometimes, I'd like to give just 1% of what I am feeling to those who say "I've meditated for years but have achieved nothing". I'd like to say 'here we go, have this!' to a frustrated Shaiva who is stuck in the middle of a text...

So I can say that I'm kicking you around or that I'm kicking your God around -- same thing.

...and, if you knew what it was you actually just said, you would be a self-realized soul.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah I suppose you're right.
I mean, I wouldn't mind helping others come to God.
But my main reason for joining was to learn, I'm fascinated by Athiesm and other non-Christian/Jewish religions.

Just watch just out to convince you you're wrong.
The need to be right can overwhelm them.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Let me put this to you because I'm curious -
If we created our God/s, Why wouldn't we create 'better' Gods. More lenient, Or appealing, Or heck even better looking God/s?
And if we create God/s, Why don't we create other things in our head? Like a ghost, An imaginary friend, Vampires, Monsters, Shining pretty lights?

If we shape our reality on with one thing, Why not another and another?


Yes, I suppose words are the only weapons we have when defending or whatever with our God/s.

Yes but, Don't you think he could have just said something else like, I disagree, Or I don't know something else. I know he knew it would offend me, Of course it would. But he did it anyway, Is that not deliberate provocation?

People do all the time...there are far more things on earth than what you see Horatio...lol (Yes I know that's not how the quote actually goes)

 

[Thana]

People do all the time...there are far more things on earth than what you see Horatio...lol (Yes I know that's not how the quote actually goes)

Yes but you overlooked the question,
Not every thiest does.
So I clarify, What about the Thiests who don't do that?

 

[fantome profane]

Let me put this to you because I'm curious -
If we created our God/s, Why wouldn't we create 'better' Gods. More lenient, Or appealing, Or heck even better looking God/s?.

People create "Gods" in their own images.

Mostly I do believe that people imbue "God" with their own best nature, love, charity, justice etc.

But people also imbue "God" with anger, jealousy, xenophobia, bigotry, sexism etc.


If we were better people we would create better "Gods".

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Yes but you overlooked the question,
Not every thiest does.
So I clarify, What about the Thiests who don't do that?

They do, they might not be aware of it, but they do.

God as a concept (independent from what God may actually be), is to many people the "best possible thing"

Produces Justice

Produces Kindness

Produces Mercy

Produces Wrath

Produces Jealousy

Eternal Love

Yet Can Hate

Punishes those who do wrong

Rewards those who do right

Decides your fate

Gives you free will

Is a Father

Is a Husband

Is a Warrior

Protector

and Fighter

All these are what people have put into the concept of God, all these are things people want from a God, some of theme even exist as contradictions within a God.

For Instance a God with Infinite Mercy that also doles out Infinite Punishment.

THat amalgamation right there is the "better God" unlike some polytheistic gods who may only embody one portion of those, or be two-sided. God is taking all those traits and melding them into one potential being who is all the traits the other Gods have.

 

[Thana]

People create "Gods" in their own images.

Mostly I do believe that people imbue "God" with their own best nature, love, charity, justice etc.

But people also imbue "God" with anger, jealousy, xenophobia, bigotry, sexism etc.


If we were better people we would create better "Gods".

I'm not sure I agree with that, God is forgiving, But I assure you I struggle with that. God loves those who do not love him, I also struggle with that.

I can honestly say God is better than me, In every concievable way.. So I'm not sure your argument stands up unless you'd like to add some more to it?

They do, they might not be aware of it, but they do.

God as a concept (independent from what God may actually be), is to many people the "best possible thing"

Produces Justice

Produces Kindness

Produces Mercy

Produces Wrath

Produces Jealousy

Eternal Love

Yet Can Hate

Punishes those who do wrong

Rewards those who do right

Decides your fate

Gives you free will

Is a Father

Is a Husband

Is a Warrior

Protector

and Fighter

All these are what people have put into the concept of God, all these are things people want from a God, some of theme even exist as contradictions within a God.

For Instance a God with Infinite Mercy that also doles out Infinite Punishment.

THat amalgamation right there is the "better God" unlike some polytheistic gods who may only embody one portion of those, or be two-sided. God is taking all those traits and melding them into one potential being who is all the traits the other Gods have.

Unless God is capable of both, But because we are not, We cannot comprehend it. And how does one create something so far above it, Something incomprehensible?

Are not fantasies and delusions based off experiences in reality, And just like one cannot create a new colour in their mind, One cannot create something they cannot perceive?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I'm not sure I agree with that, God is forgiving, But I assure you I struggle with that. God loves those who do not love him, I also struggle with that.

I can honestly say God is better than me, In every concievable way.. So I'm not sure your argument stands up unless you'd like to add some more to it?




Unless God is capable of both, But because we are not, We cannot comprehend it. And how does one create something so far above it, Something incomprehensible?

Are not fantasies and delusions based off experiences in reality, And just like one cannot create a new colour in their mind, One cannot create something they cannot perceive?

Lol Well in Science people were creating notions of black holes before they were perceived.

However in the God concept (again which I consider independent to what God may really be)

It isn't a creation, it is an increase.

All those things listed, are traits we perceive in people.

Love, Mercy, Justice, Wrath, Anger, Jealousy, Protection, Fighting, etc. All these are traits that we perceive in people, and many of them exist within people simultaneously. The God Concept takes those traits to their extreme (that is where it can become contradictory), or for some the God concept may exclude some of these traits.

But all these are traits, concepts we see in people and we take that and imbue them into a being that personify these traits to their utmost capability.

Notice for instance the usage of God as a king for instance. Why is that important? To us, the concept of a King (especially in America), is akin to that of a dictator. But back then, a King was the pinnacle of what a human could be. Merciful, or Wrathful, Wise, all the things that we want in a leader we wished to have in our kings.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Let me put this to you because I'm curious -
If we created our God/s, Why wouldn't we create 'better' Gods. More lenient, Or appealing, Or heck even better looking God/s?

That's exactly what we do, all the time, especially here in this place.

Watch closely the descriptions of God presented or assumed by 1) a fire-and-brimstone conservative Christian vs. 2) an ultra-liberal Christian. You'll see that they are very different gods indeed. Each Christian has molded (or understood) the Christian God in extremely different ways. In my view, the liberal has indeed created a better God. Her God is one of fluffy love, while the other guy's god is one of angry judgment and 'justice.'

And if we create God/s, Why don't we create other things in our head? Like a ghost, An imaginary friend, Vampires, Monsters, Shining pretty lights?

I really don't know what you mean. We do indeed create those things all the time.

Yes, I suppose words are the only weapons we have when defending or whatever with our God/s.

I prefer to use them as tools rather than weapons, but that may be a quibble.

Yes but, Don't you think he could have just said something else like, I disagree, Or I don't know something else. I know he knew it would offend me, Of course it would. But he did it anyway, Is that not deliberate provocation?

Beats me. I don't really know him well. All I can say is that you might want to thicken your armor and practice your skills at decapitating the other's argument with a pleasant smile and an innocent demeanor-- rather than complaining about being attacked.

The former is more productive if you want to become a champion for your God, I think.

 

[Thana]

That's exactly what we do, all the time, especially here in this place.

Watch closely the descriptions of God presented or assumed by 1) a fire-and-brimstone conservative Christian vs. 2) an ultra-liberal Christian. You'll see that they are very different gods indeed. Each Christian has molded (or understood) the Christian God in extremely different ways. In my view, the liberal has indeed created a better God. Her God is one of fluffy love, while the other guy's god is one of angry judgment and 'justice.'



I really don't know what you mean. We do indeed create those things all the time.



I prefer to use them as tools rather than weapons, but that may be a quibble.



Beats me. I don't really know him well. All I can say is that you might want to thicken your armor and practice your skills at decapitating the other's argument with a pleasant smile and an innocent demeanor-- rather than complaining about being attacked.

The former is more productive if you want to become a champion for your God, I think.

First off, Thats a bit presumptive don't you think? Whoever said I was or wanted to be a Champion for my God?

If I was complaining, Then I really need to work on my technique.

Yes we create them, But to an Athiest my beliefs are Delusional or Fantasy that I believe is reality, And yes I could create a vampire, But I don't mistake it for reality.

But my God has Hell. I don't really agree with it, I somewhat oppose the idea, But I accept it nonetheless. How is that a better God for me? If I created Him, Would I not change that?

Lol Well in Science people were creating notions of black holes before they were perceived.

However in the God concept (again which I consider independent to what God may really be)

It isn't a creation, it is an increase.

All those things listed, are traits we perceive in people.

Love, Mercy, Justice, Wrath, Anger, Jealousy, Protection, Fighting, etc. All these are traits that we perceive in people, and many of them exist within people simultaneously. The God Concept takes those traits to their extreme (that is where it can become contradictory), or for some the God concept may exclude some of these traits.

But all these are traits, concepts we see in people and we take that and imbue them into a being that personify these traits to their utmost capability.

Notice for instance the usage of God as a king for instance. Why is that important? To us, the concept of a King (especially in America), is akin to that of a dictator. But back then, a King was the pinnacle of what a human could be. Merciful, or Wrathful, Wise, all the things that we want in a leader we wished to have in our kings.

Yes, But they had the idea, the notion, Of the existance of a Black Hole.

I don't understand a lot concerning God, So how did I create things I don't understand?