Why do bad things happen to good people?

[Mark2020]

Why did bad things happened to Job and Joseph?

 

[Awoon]

Is suffering necessary, no but it seems inevitable.

 

[9Westy9]

Why did bad things happened to Job and Joseph?

because god allowed/ commanded it

 

[ryanam]

Because God allowed it, as he has allowed ALLLLLL suffering, poverty, selfishness, obscene wealth, war, murder, torture, discrimination, disease, indulgence, starvation, betrayal and terror.

But he loves you.

 

[Mark2020]

Why did bad things happened to Job and Joseph?

because god allowed/ commanded it

I would go with 'allowed', which is obvious from Job 1,2.

But let's see why God allowed that:
For Joseph:
(Genesis 50:20 [NIV]) You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

From "The Bible readers companion":

Joseph could not grasp the purpose God had in mind when the Lord permitted his captivity. But the story helps us remember that God sees the whole picture. The Lord weaves the history of individuals, families, and nations into a single tapestry. We each play our part, and each of us must trust God with the whole—even when our part seems painful at the time.

For Job:
(Job 42:5 [NIV]) My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.
(Job 42:10-13 [NIV]) After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before. All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring. The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. And he also had seven sons and three daughters.

(Note that his children were doubled too, since his first children weren't gone)

(Isaiah 55:8-9 [NIV]) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
(Romans 11:33 [NIV]) Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

 

[BruceDLimber]

But we're already restricted. We can't blow up the Sun....

If you want to pursue such silliness, feel free! I'll pass.

For the creator of the universe, everything in existence would be the result of its actions. If it was all-knowing, it could foresee every consequence. If it was all-powerful, there would be no consquence it could not prevent. By any reasonable definition of responsibility, such a god would be responsible for everything in the universe, including all evil.

I disagree because as I already stated, God created only good. Evil is solely due to our own misbehavior and wasn't in any way created by God. Again, I can provide a quote that explains this.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Of course there's reason for free will outside of morality. Freedom to choose what cereal to eat is a trivial example

I never claimed otherwise.

Perfection creates perfection that creates imperfection?

No, perfection creates perfection and gives it free will.

What we do after that point is OUR responsibility, not God's!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[9Westy9]

I never claimed otherwise.

I quote "I'm not sure there's any point to free will if it were restricted in the manner you describe."

Care to explain in what manner exactly?

No, perfection creates perfection and gives it free will.

What we do after that point is OUR responsibility, not God's!

Peace,

Bruce

gives it free will in a world where moral choices exist. Not sure I'd refer to that as perfection.

Even though God is omniscient?

Westy

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I had a question on beliefs surrounding this. A family member of mine was the type of person that would do anything for you, loved helping people, and was basically one of the greatest people I have ever met. She had a quick and surprising medical issue which left her with brain damage. Now she is disabled and must have someone care for her all hours of the day. She was not old and has many years left in her life.

Why would this happen and why to her? Why would God do this to someone? When someone dies everyone says they went to a better place, ok I can accept that but why debilitate someone like this? Also everyone says God works in mysterious ways, but why and what explanation could there be, there is absolutely no good that can come out of this. To me that is just a way of giving an answer without actually giving one.

Does anyone have any insight on this? I have always believed in God, but If it wasn't clear above this event has made me question my faith as I fail to see any positive work from God, I would like to regain the faith I had but will have trouble without understanding.

Vanity. Eclesiastes 8:14

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you want to pursue such silliness, feel free! I'll pass.

How is it silly? Is your god not capable of giving people these powers?

But if you want a real-world example, how about this: some people have the physical strength to yield certain weapons effectively; others don't. Because of this, some people are limited in their ability to do evil acts in ways that other people aren't.

Do the people who don't have this much physical strength have less free will than the people who do?

I disagree because as I already stated, God created only good. Evil is solely due to our own misbehavior and wasn't in any way created by God. Again, I can provide a quote that explains this.

Explains, or merely re-states?

How about we go through the logical process step-by-step. For starters, would you say that the existence of humanity is the result of God's actions?

 

[Me Myself]

Because Karma takes time

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, perfection creates perfection and gives it free will.

What we do after that point is OUR responsibility, not God's!

It's not an either/or proposition. Responsibility is not a zero-sum game.

We're responsible for our decisions, but so is God to the extent that he enables us to make them and foresees our consequences.

As an analogy, while a dog is an intelligent agent, if you let a vicious dog loose in your neighbourhood and it injures a child, you don't get to excuse yourself with "hey - don't look at me! I only allowed the dog to have free will. What he did with that is all on the dog, not me!"

 

[Willamena]

We're responsible for our decisions, but so is God to the extent that he enables us to make them and foresees our consequences.

As an analogy, while a dog is an intelligent agent, if you let a vicious dog loose in your neighbourhood and it injures a child, you don't get to excuse yourself with "hey - don't look at me! I only allowed the dog to have free will. What he did with that is all on the dog, not me!"

To play devil's advocate, the dog isn't given to make the same decisions we do. The responsibility is laid here on "us" in this picture, same as it is laid on "us" in the picture with God.

 

[crystalonyx]

"Why do good things happen to bad people?

Randomness

 

[BruceDLimber]

I quote "I'm not sure there's any point to free will if it were restricted in the manner you describe."

Care to explain in what manner exactly?

Because you said:

I have heard of free will. Although I'm still not sure why he doesn't restrict it so we don't need to make moral choices. Why allow or create evil?

First off, as I've said repeatedly, God created only good and has NEVER been the author of evil!

And my original comment (above) was because I don't see what point said free will would have if, as you describe, we had free will but were somehow prevented from making choices. (I should have thought this obvious.) And this is the restriction I referred to.

[God]gives free will in a world where moral choices exist. Not sure I'd refer to that as perfection.

Well, as ever, you're free to make your own definitions. Just don't expect others to agree or necessarily accept them.

Also, please note that although you apparently don't approve of this setup, you've neglected to propose any supposedly better system. . . .

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

How is it silly? Is your god not capable of giving people these powers?

The question isn't God's capability; it's whether you want to pursue the idea of "blowing up the sun" (your term).

I don't.

Nor will I complain about any extent to which people can't do evil acts.
Neither, BTW, have I heard you--or anybody else!--complain about having free will.

Why does it seem you want to advocate all the wrong stuff??!!!

Explains, or merely re-states?

Explains, as I stated. The quote is below.

How about we go through the logical process step-by-step. For starters, would you say that the existence of humanity is the result of God's actions?

I prefer to short-circuit the process by stipulating that and related things.

Here's the promised quote:


Chapter 74.

THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

“The true explanation of this subject is very difficult. Know that beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, those perceptible to the senses and those intellectual.
“Things which are sensible are those which are perceived by the five exterior senses; thus those outward existences which the eyes see are called sensible. Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind. For example, mind itself is an intellectual thing which has no outward existence. All man's characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible.
“Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.
“In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength.
“Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind—that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements—that is to say, as there is antagonism between these different elements, therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.
“The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.
“Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.”
— Some Answered Questions, pp. 282-284

Peace,

Bruce

 

[PolyHedral]

And my original comment (above) was because I don't see what point said free will would have if, as you describe, we had free will but were somehow prevented from making choices. (I should have thought this obvious.)

But that is the case now; I cannot fly.

 

[9Westy9]

Because you said:



First off, as I've said repeatedly, God created only good and has NEVER been the author of evil!

God must have either created evil or created the capacity for evil. I guess you could say he did this in giving us moral choices.

And my original comment (above) was because I don't see what point said free will would have if, as you describe, we had free will but were somehow prevented from making choices. (I should have thought this obvious.) And this is the restriction I referred to.

Are you trying to suggest that free will has no meaning outside of moral choices?

Well, as ever, you're free to make your own definitions. Just don't expect others to agree or necessarily accept them.

Also, please note that although you apparently don't approve of this setup, you've neglected to propose any supposedly better system. . . .

Peace,

Bruce

A better system? How about a world that has no pain, suffering, evil etc. Sounds good to me

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The question isn't God's capability; it's whether you want to pursue the idea of "blowing up the sun" (your term).

I don't.

You're missing the point.

Neither do I. I also don't want to kill an innocent person with a gun. Nevertheless, one of these acts is within my physical ability and one of them isn't.

My overall point was that we find ourselves at some midpoint on a scale of capability. We can commit many evil acts, but there are also many evil acts that we can't commit.

If you're going to argue that we can't be constrained from doing evil acts because it would take away our free will, then you need to address the fact that we are constrained from doing many evil acts, yet we still apparently have free will.

If the properties of the universe or humanity were slightly different, it's conceivable that a gun wouldn't work as a weapon. In this hypothetical world, would still have free will?

Nor will I complain about any extent to which people can't do evil acts.

Heh - I'm not complaining that people can't kill me with their thoughts; I'm just pointing out that the fact that we can conceive of more evil than we can actually do tells us that your argument is flawed.

Neither, BTW, have I heard you--or anybody else!--complain about having free will.

And you're not going to. I like having free will (or what feels like free will... but that's a whole other topic). But this doesn't mean I can't recognize the problems with trying to reconcile the universe we see around ourselves with the idea that it's the product of a perfect, benevolent god.

Why does it seem you want to advocate all the wrong stuff??!!!

Again: you're missing the point.

When I tell you how your argument is incompatible with certain negative aspects of reality, I'm not saying that I like those negative aspects; I'm just saying that your argument has problems with its logic.

Explains, as I stated. The quote is below.

Not so much, actually. It seems to just be more pronouncements without support.

But tell you what: if evil is merely the absence of good as cold is merely the absence of heat, then like temperature, evil must have an "absolute zero"; once you take away all the good - once you have a complete absence of it - then there's no more good to remove, and we can't get any more evil.

So... where is this "absolute zero" of evil? Can you tell us the thing that is so objectively evil that no evil can be greater?

I prefer to short-circuit the process by stipulating that and related things.

You stipulate it... so you agree. Good.

Next question: is humanity entirely good?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

"Why do good things happen to bad people?

Vanity. Eclesiastes 8:14