• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why do bad things happen when God exists?

Unfathomable Tao

Student of the Way
But the choice is ours, which means it's not God's. God didn't cause the evil, It allowed it--a critical difference.

Aids yes, allows no. And because God would allow evil in this controlled environment, that doesn't make God evil. It's the only path to an eternal life. The only alternative would be God with no universe, and no sentient creatures with free will and independent thought which benefits both God and those (of us :)) who move on to that far shore one day. You don't like suffering and that life isn't fair, well I don't either but it looks like we'll either have to accept that, or believe in nothing.

That's a primitive attitude toward God, which is the one that's, regrettably, still prevalent. Deism and atheism are the only reasonable positions on God, but neither offer any salve for our crushing doubt--but at least deism offers a very distant hope

You're not explaining though why god could not create choice without evil. You avoid that point, and keep going to the choice aspect of it. If god is all knowing he has everything to do with allowing evil. Since most theistic religions say god has a plan, and allows evil, that is aiding and abetting for his 'divine plan'. I didn't say I didn't like life, as to your other point, and I accept suffering as inevitable. This does not help a defense, on your part. You can say the Problem of Evil is primitive, but it remains unsettled.
 

Unfathomable Tao

Student of the Way
How does deism seem preferable to atheism, or how can it? Seeing as the life of the deist and atheist is the same. Deists aren't trying to please, obey, or communicate with a personal deity. The distant god is a god that isn't there (for anyone).
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
You're not explaining though why god could not create choice without evil.

Because without the ability to choose evil, there is no choice.

You avoid that point, and keep going to the choice aspect of it.

Yes because, again, we can't choose evil if it isn't an option. I'm sorry, I think I have to keep saying the same think because you're locked into the result you want and are blocking. To choose, we have to have a choice, I can't say it any plainer than that.


How does deism seem preferable to atheism, or how can it? Seeing as the life of the deist and atheist is the same. Deists aren't trying to please, obey, or communicate with a personal deity.

Neither are deists. And it's preferable because it offers purpose and something beyond this test.

The distant god is a god that isn't there (for anyone).

I think that's what you find objectionable, you want a personal God--but it just isn't, can't be, there in this life.[/QUOTE]
 

Unfathomable Tao

Student of the Way
Because without the ability to choose evil, there is no choice.



Yes because, again, we can't choose evil if it isn't an option. I'm sorry, I think I have to keep saying the same think because you're locked into the result you want and are blocking. To choose, we have to have a choice, I can't say it any plainer than that.




Neither are deists. And it's preferable because it offers purpose and something beyond this test.



I think that's what you find objectionable, you want a personal God--but it just isn't, can't be, there in this life.

No I am not blocked, you simply aren't grasping my argument- that an all powerful god could give choice without evil.

Its a fact that a 'truly' all powerful being, could give choice without evil, or else there is something it cannot do.

Also, I do not 'want' god to be anything. I don't need a defense for what I don't accept.
 

Unfathomable Tao

Student of the Way
Deism does not really offer a hope beyond this test, as you called it. How would the deist god communicate, and to what chosen prophet? Deists typically find revelation laughable.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
A mistake is something unintended. Murder, by definition is intended. And enslavement could only be intentional as well.
Yes and no. If one makes a mistake, it is generally the result of a choice. All behavior is the result of choice. One chooses all actions, even the most small which can result in a mistake or even in harm. And murder can be unintentional as well, at least in cases such as hitting someone while driving drunk. Or in the case of this young man here is my state that decided to rob an elderly woman. He tried to break in the door and never made it btw, and she died of a heart attack. He is now charged with felony murder. Enslavement can definitely be intentional. I see our current POS Republican candidate as wishing to enslave all Muslims in a similar manner as what was done to Japanese American in WW2... of course he is an a**.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Then who created earthquakes or volcanic eruptions for instance?
No one 'created' them, IMO. They are the result of natural phenomena. However, our impact on the earth does have a direct effect on these types of natural occurrences.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
I suppose the analogy I am trying to make is not very helpful. I am simply suggesting that God is the source of all that is good. Without having an existing God, morality has no objectivity whatsoever.
I could not disagree more strongly. My father was a lifelong atheist and was the most moral person I have known. God had absolutely nothing to do with that. Humankind makes choices about what is or is not moral. And that changes with time, often within a few years span.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
but that precludes the idea of choice. You have peace and that is that. How is that choice? And btw...good morning my friend. I see you so rarely.

That would be true if peace was fated and written before hand. In Heaven peace is not like that, it is we do whatever we want and God takes care of any bad consequences from happening bad. Also, we will receive peace of mind and have all our negative emotions like hatred or envy revised and our reasoning as well to fit that. It is like living this life without those negative emotions, which does happen sometimes depending on our choice and reasoning. Causes of bad things in this life are not founded out of thin air, they have causes for them as well. God promises that such causes won't be a bother in Heaven. That's what I believe and what the Islamic views are. They could be different in other beliefs, and I respect that.

Sorry for not being around much. I'm a silly person who prefers being around silly threads fooling around looking for useless fun (like the chat room :D), more than with good serious threads like this one, unlike your kind self; a sophisticated person looking for useful information and discussions. That's one reason we don't meet much. It has been a while indeed. How have you been? I'm glad I had this lovely opportunity to converse with you :)
 

uncung

Member
No one 'created' them, IMO. They are the result of natural phenomena. However, our impact on the earth does have a direct effect on these types of natural occurrences.
yes everything is indeed the result of natural phenomena. However, earthquakes and volcano eruptions have nothing to do with our impact on the earth, since they are as old as the earth age.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Yes and no. If one makes a mistake, it is generally the result of a choice.


Of course. It you choose the wrong color lipstick to put on a pig, that's a mistake. If you cut it's throat, you kill it intentionally. If you killed somebody through negligence, it still wasn't intentional, so it's manslaughter, not murder. If you intended to kill the sob who was trying to kill you, that was intentional but it was also self-defense because he was trying to murder you. We're loaded with choices every day, but only the ones that involve intentionally violating the rights of another are immoral and evil, and if intended, they aren't mistakes. People try to use that word to soften the blow when they do choose to do evil.

I see our current POS Republican candidate as wishing to enslave all Muslims in a similar manner as what was done to Japanese American in WW2... of course he is an a**.

He did no such thing. He's only wanting to stop the flow of unvetted immigrants which the CIA chief just said many of which are ISIS. Some who would make such a careless accusation and name calling had better stay away from mirrors. And if you want to bring up politics, attacking Trump, aligning yourself with that corrupt to the soul murderer, Hillary, and defending Muslim terrorists is a really bad place to start.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
I could not disagree more strongly. My father was a lifelong atheist and was the most moral person I have known. God had absolutely nothing to do with that. Humankind makes choices about what is or is not moral. And that changes with time, often within a few years span.
It really doesn't matter if you disagree or not, whether your father was an atheist or not. It is quite possible that God had something to do with what ever goodness your father might have had. You cannot say God had absolutely nothing to do with your fathers morality. You can certainly remove the name of God from your conversations, but you cannot remove the influence God has had and will continue to have on this world. The only honest answer is that you don't know. And that is of course because you don't know.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I could not disagree more strongly. My father was a lifelong atheist and was the most moral person I have known. God had absolutely nothing to do with that. Humankind makes choices about what is or is not moral. And that changes with time, often within a few years span.

I agree except that morals don't change. The crap clerics and politicians throw onto the simple moral code (the Golden Rule) and call morality, does change however--often minute to minute as needed to prop up rationalizations and keep people in line.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Why do bad things happen when God exists?
That is the question that you pose, perhaps the answer is staring us in the face.
Bad things happen because God does NOT exist.

Makes sense. And if God does exist he must be a rather cruel vindictive character, like the Old Testament God.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
No I am not blocked, you simply aren't grasping my argument- that an all powerful god could give choice without evil.
It's true that Almighty God could have created us as He created the angels .. sinless.
..but He didn't

That's what you are complaining about, is it? You don't like the responsibility you've been given
 

Unfathomable Tao

Student of the Way
It's true that Almighty God could have created us as He created the angels .. sinless.
..but He didn't

That's what you are complaining about, is it? You don't like the responsibility you've been given

Complaining? No. I'm explaining that there is no good way out of the problem of evil that would make god seem attractive.

God is the theist's problem to defend.
 

Unfathomable Tao

Student of the Way
Now just to add- I will readily confess that deism and pantheism get one out of the problem of evil. A deist doesn't typically claim to understand god's creative processes and motives though. Polytheism also gets one out of the problem of evil, excepting the line calling on us to question if such beings should indeed be called gods. The individual must decide that.
 
Top