Why do Christians accuse other religions of believing in false prophets?

[dybmh]

This is self delusion and fallacy, a violation of logic and reason .. something I am not willing to do to salvage belief in man made dogma.

1) Do not know Hebrew ?? -- then you better not rely on anything in the Bible as True or useful for anything right ?? I am just going to leave it at that and hope that you might one day figure out how desperately silly and fallacious your comment is.

2) No Big Deal ?? (refer to 1) -- Just "scrw it" right ?! belief in anything on the basis of some hebrew book is silly nonsense ... so leave it at that -- it matters not whether the True God is Shiva or BAAL -- nor do any of the rules given to us by either of these God's matter .. even though Jesus has told us that our salvation is dependent upon it. Glad we got that off our chest

3) Reflect on the irrational self deception and deflection in 1 & 2 .. now let it Go - and never mention again.

The point is, if you don't know Hebrew, then there is always a chance that the verse doesnt mean what you think it means.

4) EL Shaddai not YHWH -- > Correct <--- Full Marks , Abe did not know his God by the Name YHWH. This God .. not unlike YHWH .. introduces himself to Abe with an Epithet "I am God Most High" "I am the Supreme God - God Supreme" "I am God of the Mountain" "God of your fore-Fathers" "I am the Sun God" "I am God of Storms" and so on .. all are examles of Epithets ascribed to various Gods.

Abe did know YHWH by that specific name. The verse is about a revelation and direct intimate experience which communicates full knowledge.

Again, this is understood from the grammar of the verse in question. But also from the context and the chapter where the verse resides. Moses had brought the name back to Israelites after the burning bush episode. They either knew the name already or had learned it at that time. Now in Chapter 6 a few verses after the one you keep focusing on, YHWH says they will know my name when I rescue them and they see all that I will do.

Get it? Knowing the name, is not literally knowing the name. It's knowing YHWH's reputation and full power.

While learning one of the Epithets of this God helps in the identification of of this God .. Learnign this Epithet does not tell us the name by Which ABE knew his God .. does not tell us the identity of this God nor the name of this God. El Shaddai, is not a name.

It could be a name. We Jews consider it a name. Why isn't it a name?

5) We have 2 clues thusfar .. A) EL Shaddai is one of the Epithets of this God B) the name by thich ABE knows this God is not YHWH

A) it's unknown how you have concluded this
b) your misunderstanding the verse in multiple ways and ignoring context and ignoring the chapter itself and ignoring the several other examples when "knowing the name" is not literal

Given this information --- you then descend into irrational and illogical self deception claiming that El Shaddai is YHWH -- When the clues we have thus far tell us that ABE's God was not named YHWH .. and that we do not know the NAME of this God. Your claim is unfortunately - illogical nonsense.

You haven't given information, just a very weak theory which ignores the many strong reasons that Abe did indeed know YHWH by the name YHWH.

You then Go on to declare that you know who the one True God of the Bible is (1c. even without speaking Hebrew - at which point brain should be feeling pain at how claim 1 contradicts this this latest claim) and that the other Gods are False -- but give ZERO support for this claim .. nor tell us the name of this one True God (presumably YHWH) and again (1c)

YOU don't know Hebrew and are making all kinds of claims. Irony overload. Remember EL-Oliun?

6) You have again claimed indirectly that YHWH is a liar .. YHWH himself tells us about other Gods .. and is certainly not Jealous of a falsehood but that is an inference. Azaz-EL is a real God according to YHWH .. a God to which the Israelites are instructed to Sacrifice

Not really. They're not other gods.

Regarding Azazel... it's Az-Azel. It literally means Goat-SentAway. That's why it's translating so many places as scapegoat. If they believed in this other god, and called it Azaz-El, the powerful-EL, they would not send the goat off the cliff. That is so disrespectful. they would make an altar and offer it up, like the pagans ( and israelites/canaanites ) did. See, the archeology defeats you here. If they actually beleived in this other god, there would be other altars and other offerings.

That was not the intention here.

6b) You also are claiming that Bible passages referring to other God(s) - such as that found in Job and Mark are false nonsense - Satan is a God .. a God lesser than "The Father" a God Subservient to his Father .. but a God no less.

They are poetic, and they seem to be referring people. All children are children of god. And the strongest evidence of this came in Psalm 89. The buzzwords they were seaching on CANNOT BE COMPARED TO YHWH. So these expressions about sons of god are not literally gods. They can't be.

So YHWH is a Liar(6) -- and the Bible passages pointed out are a big fat lie and thus are to be disgarded and after all (2) so what does it matter.

No you are misinterretting repeatedly. All the same way. Hyper-literal interpretation fail.

7) What part of Satan is referred to as a Divinity with God-Like Powers -- did you not understand when reading the Bible -- or did you not bother to read (due to 1 and 2) and are just going on the Hollywood depiction .. or what Pastor John said one day when at Band Camp as a Youth.

It's an angel.

Your mission - should you choose to accept - is to make a list of all the Divine Powers you can think of .. then explain how the having of Divine Powers does not make the entity weilding these powers a divinity .. then adjust your perspective of Satan to something that makes rational sense such that God is no longer a big liar in your story.

Ah. The difference is eternity and authority. Angels are kind of like single use entities. God conjures them up, they do their job, then they return back to God and become dormant until they are needed again. Some of them have ongoing duties. But they are created beings, they are not creators. God is the only eternal creator. That's the difference between an angel and a god.

8) Now all this --- and we have yet to identify the name by which Abraham knew is God ? Notice that what you think .. and your Perspective "YHWH is a big Liar and the Bible a lie to which we should pay no attention" has absolutely nothing to do with Abe's perspective .. and has no bearing on the NAME by which Abe knew his God .. something you have yet to understand but, hopefully we can have a breakthrough.

Not a big liar. the text is not hyper-literal. especially in Psalms. its poetry. And prophecy/visions is often like a dream. Hyper-literal won't work with dreams and poetry.

The question being addressed is not who you think Abe's God was ... the question is who did ABE think his God was .. what name did Abe use for his God .. by what name did ABE call his God .. not what name you wish to call his God ... and ABE did not call his God by the name YHWH .. according to YHWH .. so stop calling YHWH a liar at this time ... you will have a chance for that later.

The name that is used repeatedly is YHWH. And EL is never used.

 

[dybmh]

We are given another clue, another Epithet for ABE's God in Genesis 14 ... the fated visit with our Good Friend MelchiZedek .. This is a different epithet than "EL Shaddai" not a surprise as a God could have many Epithets in Abes time. This time the Epithet is "EL Oliun" which unlike EL Shaddai -- which has an ambiguous meaning of which we are not exactly sure .. having a number of Possibilities .. EL Oliun is "EL Supreme" a variation on El Elyon "God most high" .. but a different epithet .. .. This same Epithet is also used in Psalm 82 in conjunction with the God EL -- the Chief God of of the Canaanite Pantheon .. depicted as Chief God of the Congregation of EL

It's not Oliun for anyone. You should google search for "EL Oliun" and see what comes up. I think it's 3 or 4 hits total on the whole internet. One of them is this thread. The others appear to be spanish language mistakes people are making with the tranliterations. Why doesn't anyone else use this name El-Oliun?

And no, El-Oliun is not in Psalm 82. El Elyon is in Psalm 78. El-Oliun doesn't exist. El-Elyon only exists in 5 places in the entire Tanach. 4 times in Gen 14. Abe corrects Malchi-Tzedek and says the name is YHWH. And then there's Psalm 78 by Asaph. Compared to 6000+ mentions of YHWH. 6000 compared to 5 and you seem to be obsessed with this name, and you can't even pronounce it right.

While this in of itself is not a slam dunk for EL as the identity of Abe's God .. This was an epithet by which the God EL was known during the time of Solomon.

No... not Oliun.

MelchiZedek is a Canaanite King of Jerusalem .. and Priest of the Most High ... Priest of EL Supreme. This Priesthood in Jerusalem lasts at least 500 years -- down to the time of David .. when the King is Adoni-Zedek

BUZZZZZZ. Adoni-tzedek is in Joshua long before King David. Pre-Israelite. Remember?

"My Lord is Zedek" Zedek being the Patron God of Jerusalem at this time. Zedek is God of Justice and Righteousness .. associated with EL's divine Council --- which makes complete sense and because Zedek is a twin God .. the three then represents a kind of judicial Trinity -

No... tzedek is not a twin god. That was Sydyk and Misor. And this whole Zedek thing is beyond fringe and weak. Something like 12% chance of being correct.

So .. Regardless of you think the name of Abrahams God was -- the name by which Abe knew his God was not YHWH - and there are good reasons why the vast majority of modern Theological Scholarship believes the name by which ABE knew his God was EL

No... you haven't brought a vast majority of anything. The only reason to even consider Abe's god as EL comes form the DH, and 4 sources based on divisions of divine name. That is gone. poof. bah-bye.

"Most High" - the Supreme God of the Canaanite and Phoenician Pantheon (and most everone elses Pantheon in one form or another at the time of ABE)

Abe was the exception. That's the story in the text. You're writting a different story. It's a pretend pagan version for people who cannot escape hyper-literalism

Other epithets for this God was "Father" "Creator" "God of the Patriarchs" EL lived in a Tent on a Mountain .. had many Storm God Characteristics .

Maybe EL lived on a mountain, but YHWH fills heaven and earth. Kind of a big difference.

9) The question you neglected ... perhaps the most important part of the story .. Should we kill the child for the sins of the Parents/Tribe .. or Not ?

We? Definitely not. And even in the story, the israelites didn't follow those commands. The challenge for the reader is to decide if that was the right or wrong decision under those conditions at that time and place.

 

[Sargonski]

It's not Oliun

Don't blame me that you do not understand the Translation .. it is a Hebrew word the Translator uses.. and it doesn't make a wit of difference to anything either way .. which is the really stupid part down a brain dead rabbit hole of your own creation - as the translation from Hebrew to English Oliun = "Supreme" and so the "EL Supreme" from the Lenningrad codex and this same epithet is used a number of times.

Beside this translation is the KJV which translates to English "Most High" "EL Most High" cry as you wish over the word Supreme .. but Most High means the same thing at the end of the Day EL Supreme .. EL Most High

What Translation is this of yours that is significantly different .. such that you wish to bicker over a change in meaning ?

How about Crucified .. do you understand the Crucifixion of your position Brother D ?! . this dissent down the dark path of deception.. having absolutely Zero to do with My Skill in reading Hebrew Leave that to the Experts of which you have two translations .. both meaning the same thing .. What is your translation of this passage that is so special --- XXX .. Thats the triple crucifix if you didn't understand Hebrew Script...

 

[muhammad_isa]

"Nasty God" -- Yes Muhamu - Your depiction of GOD is very nasty .. A Flip Flopping Irrational xenophobic genocidal maniac with the most petty and nasty of Human characteristics.

No, it is not.
What specifically, do you refer to?

 

[Brian2]

1) Do not know Hebrew ?? -- then you better not rely on anything in the Bible as True or useful for anything right ?? I am just going to leave it at that and hope that you might one day figure out how desperately silly and fallacious your comment is.

From what I hear, sometimes there is more than one translation that can be correct.

2) No Big Deal ?? (refer to 1) -- Just "scrw it" right ?! belief in anything on the basis of some hebrew book is silly nonsense ... so leave it at that -- it matters not whether the True God is Shiva or BAAL -- nor do any of the rules given to us by either of these God's matter .. even though Jesus has told us that our salvation is dependent upon it. Glad we got that off our chest

OK so Ex 6:3 says that YHWH did not reveal His name (YHWH) to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but appeared to them as El Shaddai, all that means is that probably Moses inserted the name YHWH in some places in Genesis so that people would not become confused about who this El Shaddai was.
We can see by Exodus 6:3 that YHWH is El Shaddai who revealed Himself to them but did not tell them His name, YHWH.

4) EL Shaddai not YHWH -- > Correct <--- Full Marks , Abe did not know his God by the Name YHWH. This God .. not unlike YHWH .. introduces himself to Abe with an Epithet "I am God Most High" "I am the Supreme God - God Supreme" "I am God of the Mountain" "God of your fore-Fathers" "I am the Sun God" "I am God of Storms" and so on .. all are examles of Epithets ascribed to various Gods.

While learning one of the Epithets of this God helps in the identification of of this God .. Learnign this Epithet does not tell us the name by Which ABE knew his God .. does not tell us the identity of this God nor the name of this God. El Shaddai, is not a name.

Why do you think that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew a name? Ex 6:3 says that He appeared to them as El Shaddai, which I presume is El Elyon that Melchizedek was priest of.

5) We have 2 clues thusfar .. A) EL Shaddai is one of the Epithets of this God B) the name by thich ABE knows this God is not YHWH

Given this information --- you then descend into irrational and illogical self deception claiming that El Shaddai is YHWH -- When the clues we have thus far tell us that ABE's God was not named YHWH .. and that we do not know the NAME of this God. Your claim is unfortunately - illogical nonsense.

You then Go on to declare that you know who the one True God of the Bible is (1c. even without speaking Hebrew - at which point brain should be feeling pain at how claim 1 contradicts this this latest claim) and that the other Gods are False -- but give ZERO support for this claim .. nor tell us the name of this one True God (presumably YHWH) and again (1c)

Ex 6:3 tells us that El Shaddai is YHWH. YHWH tells Moses that He appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as El Shaddai.
So why do you say that El Shaddai is not YHWH?

6) You have again claimed indirectly that YHWH is a liar .. YHWH himself tells us about other Gods .. and is certainly not Jealous of a falsehood but that is an inference. Azaz-EL is a real God according to YHWH .. a God to which the Israelites are instructed to Sacrifice

Azazel is not a God. Does "el" at the end of a word indicate a god?

 

[Sargonski]

No, it is not.
What specifically, do you refer to?

I am referring specifically the one you call God ... Jah who did you think was being referred to , Jah Rastafa ?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am referring specifically the one you call God ... Jah..

You are being evasive .. what exactly, is this "nastiness" ?

 

[Sargonski]

You are being evasive .. what exactly, is this "nastiness" ?

Who is being the evasive one here friend -- let us not tar others with ye own logs. You were told 3 or 4 times now exactly what this Nasty behavior of your God is ? and yet you ask again and pretend you not already been told .. in some painful attempt to evade The Truth about the Box in which you have placed Your God.

Are you ready Muhamu ? Once again YHWH is depicted as a xenophobic genocidal maniac - an Irrational flip flopping God with the most petty and nasty of human Characteristics ..

What exactly about "Nasty" are you pretending not to understand about your God .. in an effort to evade the Truth .. whilst accusing others of being evasive.

 

[Sargonski]

From what I hear, sometimes there is more than one translation that can be correct.



OK so Ex 6:3 says that YHWH did not reveal His name (YHWH) to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but appeared to them as El Shaddai, all that means is that probably Moses inserted the name YHWH in some places in Genesis so that people would not become confused about who this El Shaddai was.
We can see by Exodus 6:3 that YHWH is El Shaddai who revealed Himself to them but did not tell them His name, YHWH.



Why do you think that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew a name? Ex 6:3 says that He appeared to them as El Shaddai, which I presume is El Elyon that Melchizedek was priest of.



Ex 6:3 tells us that El Shaddai is YHWH. YHWH tells Moses that He appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as El Shaddai.
So why do you say that El Shaddai is not YHWH?



Azazel is not a God. Does "el" at the end of a word indicate a god?

This is bonkers -- Azazel and Satan are Gods .. and yes .. it can mean a God .. and in most cases is referring to that God "Israel" El Suffices .

1) I can give you 20 different Bibles -- all with correct translation. In what way is this information relevant to the fact that all of these Translations state that Abe didn't know his God by the name of YHWH.

2) "Moses inserted the Name YHWH into the Text so later generations would not be confused"

El Shaddai is not a Name... it is an Epithet .. like EL Elyon "God Most High - God Supreme - Father - Creator - and so on. The question we are after is what name Abe knew is God .. what was the Name that Moses substituted with YHWH .. so that the Later Generations would not be confused ?

and why did Moses leave YHWH out of the first creation story ? not do any substituting there .. but I digress nevermind.. first to the big problem .. The Name Moses was substituting YHWH ?

 

[Brian2]

This is bonkers -- Azazel and Satan are Gods .. and yes .. it can mean a God .. and in most cases is referring to that God "Israel" El Suffices .

Yes el at the end of a name probably indicates the God El, but does not indicate that the person who has a name ending in el is a God.
Azazel is said in appocryphal Enoch to be a fallen angel who led angels to have sex with human women. Leviticus 16 in the Bible is not a good reason to say that Israel offers a goat to the god Azalel.
Satan is a god because people serve him. A lump of wood is a god if people serve it. Neither Satan not a lump of wood are the only true God however.

1) I can give you 20 different Bibles -- all with correct translation. In what way is this information relevant to the fact that all of these Translations state that Abe didn't know his God by the name of YHWH.

We all presume that standard translations are pretty correct, and that is probably true, however they all probably have errors also and Ex 6:3 could be one of those. But we go along with what the standard translations say usually anyway.

2) "Moses inserted the Name YHWH into the Text so later generations would not be confused"

El Shaddai is not a Name... it is an Epithet .. like EL Elyon "God Most High - God Supreme - Father - Creator - and so on. The question we are after is what name Abe knew is God .. what was the Name that Moses substituted with YHWH .. so that the Later Generations would not be confused ?

and why did Moses leave YHWH out of the first creation story ? not do any substituting there .. but I digress nevermind.. first to the big problem .. The Name Moses was substituting YHWH ?

I don't know the name or if there was a name. Do you?
Why not substitute YHWH for El Shaddai so that there is no confusion about who this El Shaddai is?
I imagine God (the one who inspired the scriptures) and Moses did not want people to think that Elohim and YHWH were 2 different Gods who did different parts of creation.
Elohim did it all and in Gen 2 when YHWH creates man, we can see that it means that Elohim creates man and it is YHWH.
What do you imagine?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Once again YHWH is depicted as a xenophobic genocidal maniac - an Irrational flip flopping God with the most petty and nasty of human Characteristics ..

Repeating accusations without supporting evidence is worthless..
You read the OT without proper understanding, in any case.

 

[Sargonski]

Repeating accusations without supporting evidence is worthless..
You read the OT without proper understanding, in any case.

What on earth are you talking about Brother Muhamu "without supporting evidence" ? This is the first time you have asked for such evidence.. and I just assumed you had some familiarity with the Bible ..

What accusation are you having trouble finding evidence for 1) Xenophobic 2) Genocidal 3) flip flopping 4) Most petty and nasty of human Characteristics.

I will give you one to get you started 3) Should we kill children for the sins of the parents/Tribe - or should we have a rule stating that children should not be punished for the actions of another.

Nothing to improperly understand Muhamu --- just a simple question from that flip flopping God of Yours. Reminds me of the Trickster God Loki in a way .. this Yahu of the Shasu

 

[Sargonski]

Yes el at the end of a name probably indicates the God El, but does not indicate that the person who has a name ending in el is a God.
Azazel is said in appocryphal Enoch to be a fallen angel who led angels to have sex with human women. Leviticus 16 in the Bible is not a good reason to say that Israel offers a goat to the god Azalel.
Satan is a god because people serve him. A lump of wood is a god if people serve it. Neither Satan not a lump of wood are the only true God however.



We all presume that standard translations are pretty correct, and that is probably true, however they all probably have errors also and Ex 6:3 could be one of those. But we go along with what the standard translations say usually anyway.


I don't know the name or if there was a name. Do you?
Why not substitute YHWH for El Shaddai so that there is no confusion about who this El Shaddai is?
I imagine God (the one who inspired the scriptures) and Moses did not want people to think that Elohim and YHWH were 2 different Gods who did different parts of creation.
Elohim did it all and in Gen 2 when YHWH creates man, we can see that it means that Elohim creates man and it is YHWH.
What do you imagine?

Azazel -- told you already that it may not indicate the entity is EL -- no need to repeat back to me. and it certainly doesn't mean tht the entity is "EL" but it does mean a relationship to EL --- it is from other parts of the Text that we find out Azazel is a God...

It was not claimed that Satan is the one True God .. so why are you pretending otherwise. And why are you also pretenting that people serving Satan helps to prove he is a God. Looking for something like hurling lightning bolts from the Sky .. or other God-like skills.. some coherent definition of the difference betwen God and Angel so we can divine between the two.. and nor is a lump of wood a God .. what kind of nonsense speak is this ?

Since you are unable to produce a basic definition-explanation of your belief .. showing that you don't really understand yourself - I will try to assist and claim that having God-Like Powers .. the ability to hurl lighting bolts from the sky through force of will - control nature through force of will .. makes an entity a God.

This however does not make this entity the Only God .. nor the "Most High" God. The Highest among the Gods for those who can't figure out what "Have no other Gods before me" meant - To the Israelite. What the term "Sons of God" meant to the Israelite "Sons of the Supreme One" Perhaps you do not believe in other Gods .. but Abe did .. and the Iraelites ..

Your last comment the most pathetic .. and that was no easy bar .. Elohim is not a name --- and you know Elohim is not a name .. just like the epithets we discussed .. so why are you pretending otherwise .. desperate to avoid the name by which Abe called his God.

What is with the massive deflection on this one Brother B.. The brain not willing to go there -- some kind of "Thought Stopping" reaction was triggered somewhere ? this response of disingenuous oblivion and/or self deception? Who are you trying to kid Brian ?

The name by which Abe Called his God -- What was it most likely to be knowing that it was not YHWH ? nor was it "Elohim"

Hint - The Root of the word "Elohim" may be a clue because when the Canaanites and Phonecians and Ammonites used the term El Elyon .. they were talking about who ?

Who is God most High to these people Brian .. By what name do they call The Supreme God .. ?

and for bonus marks .. What is the name of the Patron God of a walled city who's king is named Adoni-Zedek "My lord is Zedek"

 

[Brian2]

Azazel -- told you already that it may not indicate the entity is EL -- no need to repeat back to me. and it certainly doesn't mean tht the entity is "EL" but it does mean a relationship to EL ---

David names a place where he defeated the Philistines because of what YHWH did, "Baal Perazim". That does not mean that David was praising the Baals of Canaan. (2Sam 5:20) Similarly with el at the end of a name, it does not necessarily reference the El of any Pantheon. El is a work that refers to the head of the Canaanite Pantheon etc and is a word that simply means "god", and in association with anything Israelite where there is only one true God, the God does not need to be names except for clarification purposes, to indicate that YHWH is meant and not any other god.

it is from other parts of the Text that we find out Azazel is a God...

Which parts?

It was not claimed that Satan is the one True God .. so why are you pretending otherwise. And why are you also pretenting that people serving Satan helps to prove he is a God. Looking for something like hurling lightning bolts from the Sky .. or other God-like skills.. some coherent definition of the difference betwen God and Angel so we can divine between the two.. and nor is a lump of wood a God .. what kind of nonsense speak is this ?

A lump of wood carved into an idol becomes a god if people worship it and serve it.
Satan becomes a god if people serve it and thereby worship it.
Otherwise a wooded idol and Satan are no gods.

Since you are unable to produce a basic definition-explanation of your belief .. showing that you don't really understand yourself - I will try to assist and claim that having God-Like Powers .. the ability to hurl lighting bolts from the sky through force of will - control nature through force of will .. makes an entity a God.

No that just means that YHWH has created that entity with those powers or given them those powers.
Having those powers or doing things that God does may be why angels are called "sons of God" or "gods" (and remember that the word for god can be translated as something like "mighty ones") and humans who do the work that is for God to do may also be called gods. (as the human judges in Psalm 82)

This however does not make this entity the Only God .. nor the "Most High" God. The Highest among the Gods for those who can't figure out what "Have no other Gods before me" meant - To the Israelite. What the term "Sons of God" meant to the Israelite "Sons of the Supreme One" Perhaps you do not believe in other Gods .. but Abe did .. and the Iraelites ..

1Cor 8:4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

Sure, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob may not have known yet that idols are nothing. That was something that YHWH was teaching Israel, and Israel witnessed this fact to the world through their experience with YHWH and what He taught them.
There are many gods and lords but some are nothing and others are called that because of the authority God has given to them.
I guess God gave humans authority over the earth, gods over the earth, and we served Satan and so gave the authority to him.
I don't think God gave Satan the Kingdoms of the earth, (remember Jesus temptations in the wilderness) it was us humans who did that and do it when we serve him.

Your last comment the most pathetic .. and that was no easy bar .. Elohim is not a name --- and you know Elohim is not a name .. just like the epithets we discussed .. so why are you pretending otherwise .. desperate to avoid the name by which Abe called his God.

Elohim in Genesis 1 refers to the only true God, YHWH, the creator.
People who don't know that (like yourself) might get confused if God did not make it plain later (Genesis 2 etc etc) who the creator is.

What is with the massive deflection on this one Brother B.. The brain not willing to go there -- some kind of "Thought Stopping" reaction was triggered somewhere ? this response of disingenuous oblivion and/or self deception? Who are you trying to kid Brian ?

The name by which Abe Called his God -- What was it most likely to be knowing that it was not YHWH ? nor was it "Elohim"

Abraham did not need to know the name and neither did Isaac or Jacob. Abraham knew who He was when He visited and those after him knew also and He identified Himself and the God of their father.
Your Zedek is a word that means "righteousness", so Melchizedek, my King is righteous, Adonizedek, my Lord is righteous.
And your speculation about Zedek being the name God knew YHWH as is speculation only and not a Biblical fact, and it may be benign enough as an interpretation if you don't make it mean things that contradict the rest of the Bible.

Hint - The Root of the word "Elohim" may be a clue because when the Canaanites and Phonecians and Ammonites used the term El Elyon .. they were talking about who ?

Who is God most High to these people Brian .. By what name do they call The Supreme God .. ?

and for bonus marks .. What is the name of the Patron God of a walled city who's king is named Adoni-Zedek "My lord is Zedek"

As I said, it could just mean, "my Lord is righteous", but that is OK.
Where do you want to take it, or is it just something you have noticed in the Bible and felt compelled to show people,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and proclaim it as fact?

 

[dybmh]

Don't blame me that you do not understand the Translation .. it is a Hebrew word the Translator uses.. and it doesn't make a wit of difference to anything either way .. which is the really stupid part down a brain dead rabbit hole of your own creation - as the translation from Hebrew to English Oliun = "Supreme" and so the "EL Supreme" from the Lenningrad codex and this same epithet is used a number of times.

Beside this translation is the KJV which translates to English "Most High" "EL Most High" cry as you wish over the word Supreme .. but Most High means the same thing at the end of the Day EL Supreme .. EL Most High

What Translation is this of yours that is significantly different .. such that you wish to bicker over a change in meaning ?

How about Crucified .. do you understand the Crucifixion of your position Brother D ?! . this dissent down the dark path of deception.. having absolutely Zero to do with My Skill in reading Hebrew Leave that to the Experts of which you have two translations .. both meaning the same thing .. What is your translation of this passage that is so special --- XXX .. Thats the triple crucifix if you didn't understand Hebrew Script...

The problem is, you sound like a fool saying Oliun, when that is not a hebrew word in Tanach, or even in modern Hebrew that I am aware of.

The other problem is attaching EL to it anytime you see it. If there is a name attached to it, it would Ail. But that only happens 5 times in the entire Tanach.

But you don't know the difference between EL and Ail in Hebrew, the same way you don't know the difference between Oliun in Elyon in Hebrew. You're using a bizzare source from the "scripture4all.org foundation". But they, CLEARLY, cannot read Hebrew. You are faithfully devoted to it, probably because they have incorrectly placed "EL" above the word for "Ail", the same way that every single word has incorrect transliterations above it. Like every single word is wrong.

But it's not the translation that's 100% wrong. It's not great, but it's not wrong. The transliteration is wrong everywhere. That's what makes it funny to look at if you know Hebrew.

99% of your theories comes from mispronouncing names. You think EL is the same as Enlil... just drop the N, and remove the last two letters. EL is only 40% correct, by that method, but, who cares? right? You think EL is the same as Ail, just change the vowel. You think Sydyk is the same as Tzedek. It's all the same thing. Reduce the precision, to force a square peg into a round hole. But when you say Oliun? That exposes your ignorance. It shows that the source you're relying on for making Ail=EL is bogus.

So, I'm telling you, it's not Oliun. It makes you sound like an idiot. And it confirms that the name games you're playing are coming from unreliable sources.

 

[dybmh]

it is from other parts of the Text that we find out Azazel is a God

No. That would be spelled differently. And as usual you're pronouncing it wrong. Anyway...

Azazail "עזאזל" is literally "עז-אזל".
"עז" = goat
"אזל" = to send away

It's a goat that left. A scape-goat. The goat that escaped. That's what those two words mean. And that's exactly what happened to that goat.

If it were talking about "the mighy one" and "Ail", the word you keep mispronouncing as EL, it would be spelled differently including the aleph. The aleph is EXTREMELY important in communicating this concept in Hebrew, it's a pictographic written language. You can't just drop a letter and expect it to retain the meaning. It's easy to see that the aleph wouldn't be left out by comparing the spelling of names that actually include the word for "mighty one" at the end of the name. Here is one example, but there are many others:

Azazail (עזאזל)
IsraAIL (ישראל)

Confusing these is like confusing "Son" and "Sun" in english.

Below is a more complete confirmation of what I'm saying. I'll put it in a spoiler so people who don't need all these details can scroll past it.

Spoiler: full confirmation that Azazail = 'the goat that was sent away' not 'the mighy Ail'

IsraAIL (ישראל)
DaniAIL (דניאל)
SamuAIL (שמואל)
Micha'AIL (מיכאל)
EmanuAIL (עמנואל)
GabriAIL (גבריאל)

It's 100% consistent. Any name that includes the concept of "mighty one" has that letter alpeh "א" combined with the lamed "ל" at the end. I know you don't read Hebrew, so this is, maybe, a little difficult to see. But the words are read right to left. The last two letters in the name are aleph+lamed. But that is not how Azazail/Azazel is spelled.

Azazail (עזאזל)
IsraAIL (ישראל)

Azazail (עזאזל)
Daniail (דניאל)

Azazail (עזאזל)
Samuail (שמואל)

Azazail (עזאזל)
Micha'ail (מיכאל)

Azazail (עזאזל)
Emanuail (עמנואל)

Azazail (עזאזל)
Gabriail (גבריאל)

There you go! It's a totally different concept. They words are spelled differently. If it's "the mighty one", it NEEDS that aleph.

Azaz-Ail ( The mighty-Ail ) would be spelled "עזאזאל" not "עזאזל"

"עז-אזל" = עזאזל" = Az-azail ( The goat that left )
"עזאז-אל" = "עזאזאל" = Azaz-Ail ( The mighty Ail )

"עזאזאל" =/= "עזאזל"
Son =/= Sun
Threw =/= Through
Dough =/= Doe
Right =/= Write
Two =/= Too =/= To
There =/= Their =/= They're
Piece =/= Peace
Allowed =/= Aloud
Pear =/= Pair =/= Pare
Flour =/= Flower
Principal =/= Principle
Stationary =/= Stationery
Sight =/= Site =/= Cite

For confirmation that Azazail (עזאזל) means a goat that left (עז-אזל)

Genesis 32:15 ( verse 14 in the Christian bible )

​

עזים מאתים ותישים עשרים רחלים מאתים ואילים עשרים׃​

​

Two hundred female goats, and twenty male goats, two hundred ewes, and twenty rams,​

​

Proverbs 20:14

רע רע יאמר הקונה ואזל לו אז יתהלל׃​

It is bad, it is bad, says the buyer; but when he goes away, then he boasts.​

עז = goat
אזל = he goes away

עזאזל = goat-he goes away = goat-escaped = scape-goat

Leviticus 16:8,10, 26

​

ונתן אהרן על־שני השעירם גרלות גורל אחד ליהוה וגורל אחד לעזאזל׃​

​

And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the "goat, he goes away" ( עזאזל ).​

והשעיר אשר עלה עליו הגורל לעזאזל יעמד־חי לפני יהוה לכפר עליו לשלח אתו לעזאזל המדברה׃​

​

But the goat, on which the lot fell to be for "goat, he goes away" ( עזאזל ), shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go to [ be the ] "goat, he goes away" ( עזאזל ) into the wilderness.​

והמשלח את־השעיר לעזאזל יכבס בגדיו ורחץ את־בשרו במים ואחרי־כן יבוא אל־המחנה׃​

And he who let go the goat to [ be the ] "goat, he goes away" ( עזאזל ) shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterwards come into the camp.​

​

https://www.sefaria.org/Klein_Dictionary%2C_עֵז.1?lang=bi

​

עֵז f.n. (pl. עִזִּים) goat. [Related to Pun. and Palm. עז, Aram. עִזָּא, Syr. עָזָּא, Ugar. ‘z, Arab. ‘anz, Akka. enzu (= goat). According to some scholars these words derive from base עזו in the sense ‘to be daring’; according to others they derive from the base עוז, appearing in Arab. ‘anaza (= he turned aside), in allusion to the movements of the animal.]​

Klein Dictionary, אזל 1

אזל to go, go away. — Qal - אָזַל 1 he went away, was gone; 2 it was exhausted. [BAram. and Aram. אֲזַל, Syr. אֱזל (= he went, went away, was...

www.sefaria.org

​

אזל to go, go away. — Qal - אָזַל 1 he went away, was gone; 2 it was exhausted. [BAram. and Aram. אֲזַל, Syr. אֱזל (= he went, went away, was gone), Arab. ’azal (= eternity), ’azaliyy (= long since past, eternal). cp. zāla (= he went away.] Derivatives: אֵזֶל, אַזְלָא, אָזְלָת◌.​

https://www.sefaria.org/Klein_Dictionary%2C_עֲזָאזֵל.1?lang=bi

​

עֲזָאזֵל m.n. ‘Azozel’ — the rock from which the scapegoat was hurled on the Day of Atonement. [In the Talmud explained as a compound of עַז (= firm, rough), and אֵל (= strong). According to some scholars עֲזָאזֵל would be a compound of עֵז and אָזַל (i.e. ‘the goat went away’); according to others it would stand for עֲזַלְזֵל, which would be related to Arab. ‘azzala (= he removed), and would lit. mean ‘complete removal’.] See לַעֲזָאזֵל​

[/spolier]

 

[Sargonski]

David names a place where he defeated the Philistines because of what YHWH did, "Baal Perazim". That does not mean that David was praising the Baals of Canaan. (2Sam 5:20) Similarly with el at the end of a name, it does not necessarily reference the El of any Pantheon. El is a work that refers to the head of the Canaanite Pantheon etc and is a word that simply means "god", and in association with anything Israelite where there is only one true God, the God does not need to be names except for clarification purposes, to indicate that YHWH is meant and not any other god.



Which parts?



A lump of wood carved into an idol becomes a god if people worship it and serve it.
Satan becomes a god if people serve it and thereby worship it.
Otherwise a wooded idol and Satan are no gods.



No that just means that YHWH has created that entity with those powers or given them those powers.
Having those powers or doing things that God does may be why angels are called "sons of God" or "gods" (and remember that the word for god can be translated as something like "mighty ones") and humans who do the work that is for God to do may also be called gods. (as the human judges in Psalm 82)



1Cor 8:4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

Sure, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob may not have known yet that idols are nothing. That was something that YHWH was teaching Israel, and Israel witnessed this fact to the world through their experience with YHWH and what He taught them.
There are many gods and lords but some are nothing and others are called that because of the authority God has given to them.
I guess God gave humans authority over the earth, gods over the earth, and we served Satan and so gave the authority to him.
I don't think God gave Satan the Kingdoms of the earth, (remember Jesus temptations in the wilderness) it was us humans who did that and do it when we serve him.



Elohim in Genesis 1 refers to the only true God, YHWH, the creator.
People who don't know that (like yourself) might get confused if God did not make it plain later (Genesis 2 etc etc) who the creator is.



Abraham did not need to know the name and neither did Isaac or Jacob. Abraham knew who He was when He visited and those after him knew also and He identified Himself and the God of their father.
Your Zedek is a word that means "righteousness", so Melchizedek, my King is righteous, Adonizedek, my Lord is righteous.
And your speculation about Zedek being the name God knew YHWH as is speculation only and not a Biblical fact, and it may be benign enough as an interpretation if you don't make it mean things that contradict the rest of the Bible.



As I said, it could just mean, "my Lord is righteous", but that is OK.
Where do you want to take it, or is it just something you have noticed in the Bible and felt compelled to show people,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and proclaim it as fact?

No . . Adonia - Zedek doesn't mean My Lord is Righteousness --- it means My Lord is the God of Righteousness .. Zedek is a well known God in the region

Satan depicted as a God .. quit deflecting and address the claim that being able to control nature through force of will is god-like power. Yes - No - otherwise.

Your claim that Elohim Refers to YHWH is preposterous nonsense --

You still havn't manage to address the main question which is the name by which God knew Abe .. what is the big issue here ... you been asked this 5 times now .. always running away from the question.

 

[Sargonski]

No. That would be spelled differently. And as usual you're pronouncing it wrong. Anyway...

Azazail "עזאזל" is literally "עז-אזל".
"עז" = goat
"אזל" = to send away

It's a goat that left. A scape-goat. The goat that escaped. That's what those two words mean. And that's exactly what happened to that goat.

If it were talking about "the mighy one" and "Ail", the word you keep mispronouncing as EL, it would be spelled differently including the aleph. The aleph is EXTREMELY important in communicating this concept in Hebrew, it's a pictographic written language. You can't just drop a letter and expect it to retain the meaning. It's easy to see that the aleph wouldn't be left out by comparing the spelling of names that actually include the word for "mighty one" at the end of the name. Here is one example, but there are many others:

Azazail (עזאזל)
IsraAIL (ישראל)

Confusing these is like confusing "Son" and "Sun" in english.

Below is a more complete confirmation of what I'm saying. I'll put it in a spoiler so people who don't need all these details can scroll past it.

Spoiler: full confirmation that Azazail = 'the goat that was sent away' not 'the mighy Ail'

IsraAIL (ישראל)
DaniAIL (דניאל)
SamuAIL (שמואל)
Micha'AIL (מיכאל)
EmanuAIL (עמנואל)
GabriAIL (גבריאל)

It's 100% consistent. Any name that includes the concept of "mighty one" has that letter alpeh "א" combined with the lamed "ל" at the end. I know you don't read Hebrew, so this is, maybe, a little difficult to see. But the words are read right to left. The last two letters in the name are aleph+lamed. But that is not how Azazail/Azazel is spelled.

Azazail (עזאזל)
IsraAIL (ישראל)

Azazail (עזאזל)
Daniail (דניאל)

Azazail (עזאזל)
Samuail (שמואל)

Azazail (עזאזל)
Micha'ail (מיכאל)

Azazail (עזאזל)
Emanuail (עמנואל)

Azazail (עזאזל)
Gabriail (גבריאל)

There you go! It's a totally different concept. They words are spelled differently. If it's "the mighty one", it NEEDS that aleph.

Azaz-Ail ( The mighty-Ail ) would be spelled "עזאזאל" not "עזאזל"

"עז-אזל" = עזאזל" = Az-azail ( The goat that left )
"עזאז-אל" = "עזאזאל" = Azaz-Ail ( The mighty Ail )

"עזאזאל" =/= "עזאזל"
Son =/= Sun
Threw =/= Through
Dough =/= Doe
Right =/= Write
Two =/= Too =/= To
There =/= Their =/= They're
Piece =/= Peace
Allowed =/= Aloud
Pear =/= Pair =/= Pare
Flour =/= Flower
Principal =/= Principle
Stationary =/= Stationery
Sight =/= Site =/= Cite

For confirmation that Azazail (עזאזל) means a goat that left (עז-אזל)

Genesis 32:15 ( verse 14 in the Christian bible )

​

עזים מאתים ותישים עשרים רחלים מאתים ואילים עשרים׃​

​

Two hundred female goats, and twenty male goats, two hundred ewes, and twenty rams,​

​

Proverbs 20:14

רע רע יאמר הקונה ואזל לו אז יתהלל׃​

It is bad, it is bad, says the buyer; but when he goes away, then he boasts.​

עז = goat
אזל = he goes away

עזאזל = goat-he goes away = goat-escaped = scape-goat

Leviticus 16:8,10, 26

​

ונתן אהרן על־שני השעירם גרלות גורל אחד ליהוה וגורל אחד לעזאזל׃​

​

And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the "goat, he goes away" ( עזאזל ).​

והשעיר אשר עלה עליו הגורל לעזאזל יעמד־חי לפני יהוה לכפר עליו לשלח אתו לעזאזל המדברה׃​

​

But the goat, on which the lot fell to be for "goat, he goes away" ( עזאזל ), shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go to [ be the ] "goat, he goes away" ( עזאזל ) into the wilderness.​

והמשלח את־השעיר לעזאזל יכבס בגדיו ורחץ את־בשרו במים ואחרי־כן יבוא אל־המחנה׃​

And he who let go the goat to [ be the ] "goat, he goes away" ( עזאזל ) shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterwards come into the camp.​

​

https://www.sefaria.org/Klein_Dictionary%2C_עֵז.1?lang=bi

​

עֵז f.n. (pl. עִזִּים) goat. [Related to Pun. and Palm. עז, Aram. עִזָּא, Syr. עָזָּא, Ugar. ‘z, Arab. ‘anz, Akka. enzu (= goat). According to some scholars these words derive from base עזו in the sense ‘to be daring’; according to others they derive from the base עוז, appearing in Arab. ‘anaza (= he turned aside), in allusion to the movements of the animal.]​

Klein Dictionary, אזל 1

אזל to go, go away. — Qal - אָזַל 1 he went away, was gone; 2 it was exhausted. [BAram. and Aram. אֲזַל, Syr. אֱזל (= he went, went away, was...

www.sefaria.org

​

אזל to go, go away. — Qal - אָזַל 1 he went away, was gone; 2 it was exhausted. [BAram. and Aram. אֲזַל, Syr. אֱזל (= he went, went away, was gone), Arab. ’azal (= eternity), ’azaliyy (= long since past, eternal). cp. zāla (= he went away.] Derivatives: אֵזֶל, אַזְלָא, אָזְלָת◌.​

https://www.sefaria.org/Klein_Dictionary%2C_עֲזָאזֵל.1?lang=bi

​

עֲזָאזֵל m.n. ‘Azozel’ — the rock from which the scapegoat was hurled on the Day of Atonement. [In the Talmud explained as a compound of עַז (= firm, rough), and אֵל (= strong). According to some scholars עֲזָאזֵל would be a compound of עֵז and אָזַל (i.e. ‘the goat went away’); according to others it would stand for עֲזַלְזֵל, which would be related to Arab. ‘azzala (= he removed), and would lit. mean ‘complete removal’.] See לַעֲזָאזֵל​

[/spolier]

Already been covered .. it is not by the "EL" in the name that we are saying Azazel is a god silly .. it is because the Israelites sacrificed to this God .. go read the passage

 

[Sargonski]

The problem is, you sound like a fool saying Oliun, when that is not a hebrew word in Tanach, or even in modern Hebrew that I am aware of.

The other problem is attaching EL to it anytime you see it. If there is a name attached to it, it would Ail. But that only happens 5 times in the entire Tanach.

But you don't know the difference between EL and Ail in Hebrew, the same way you don't know the difference between Oliun in Elyon in Hebrew. You're using a bizzare source from the "scripture4all.org foundation". But they, CLEARLY, cannot read Hebrew. You are faithfully devoted to it, probably because they have incorrectly placed "EL" above the word for "Ail", the same way that every single word has incorrect transliterations above it. Like every single word is wrong.

But it's not the translation that's 100% wrong. It's not great, but it's not wrong. The transliteration is wrong everywhere. That's what makes it funny to look at if you know Hebrew.

99% of your theories comes from mispronouncing names. You think EL is the same as Enlil... just drop the N, and remove the last two letters. EL is only 40% correct, by that method, but, who cares? right? You think EL is the same as Ail, just change the vowel. You think Sydyk is the same as Tzedek. It's all the same thing. Reduce the precision, to force a square peg into a round hole. But when you say Oliun? That exposes your ignorance. It shows that the source you're relying on for making Ail=EL is bogus.

So, I'm telling you, it's not Oliun. It makes you sound like an idiot. And it confirms that the name games you're playing are coming from unreliable sources.

You are the one sounding Idiot .. as "Oliun" matters not -- the Bible uses the that word not me .. and it matters not what the Transliteration is because it is the Translation that matters . EL Supreme .. the hebrew Word used - which is transliterated Oliun - is then translated EL Supreme.

If you have a problem with this translation .. then state what translation you would prefer .. or shut up .. as you have been asked this 5 times now. Who is the stupid one here .. what part of "Give your Translation" are you having such great trouble understanding.

 

[dybmh]

Azazel is said in appocryphal Enoch to be a fallen angel

I would be careful with this. There are various angels listed with similar names, sometimes it's azael, not azazel. And there isn't a good Hebrew manuscript to go from for this.

And if you saw my most recent post, just above this one, the spelling is very important. Azazel in Leviticus is lacking the aleph which would indicate "EL/Ail" at the end which often means "a mighty divinity". You may want to click on the spoiler to see all the examples where the letter aleph is included in those names, but it is missing from Azazel. I cannot remember a single example where a name which included "mighty one" at the end was not spelled including the aleph. It's very important for the meaning.

And it's a good reminder for me about this. -EL at the end of the name is not always a good thing. -EL can be a demon. Sama'EL.

Some people look in the Zohar for support that Azazel is a fallen angel. But.... if we look at the spelling there, look what it says:

If you want a translation, let me know. But from what I can tell, this is retelling the story of Aza and Aza'el the fallen angels and that matches what is commonly understood about the angel in Enoch with the same name. Notice it is spelled differently than Leviticus.

Leviticus = עזאזל
Zohar = עזא"ל