Why do homosexuals and transgenders force religious people to accept them?

[-Peacemaker-]

Suggestion: Heal the pain from targeting, threats, torture, and oppression. Orientation and/or gender identity inherently are in no need for healing.

As a bisexual woman, my orientation and gender identity are as natural, beautiful, supercharged love-and-joy potential for happy unions as any cis-heterosexual man's or woman's.

I was forced to "accept" the Defense of Marriage Act in the mid '90s when I was deeply in love with a woman that I was ready and willing to spend the rest of my life with. Forcing me to accept this restriction put me into a spiral of depression and self-destructive behavior where I felt no hope for myself, and I ended the relationship that tore her apart as much as it tore me apart.

In spite of being a survivor of brutal sexual assault, I found myself in some of the darkest moments of my life from DOMA, at a time when I finally accepted my orientation within myself but came face to face with an oppressive culture that saw me as a second class citizen. It's one of the reasons I continue to this day unable to forgive Clinton and others of his ilk. I'll keep my dukes up to people who are unapologetic about targeting me. But I can't forgive people who act like an ally to our faces but will conveniently throw us under the bus the minute it's politically convenient. That destroys far more than a simple and direct assault.

If "forcing people to accept homosexuals and transgender people" means THIS kind of pain and suffering, I will understand the sentiment against it. But all I hear in this thread by folks who don't like queers is forcing people to accept us as human beings with the same dignity and respect as cisgender and heterosexual people, and THAT is something folks shouldn't have to do.

Bisexuals included, btw.

But c'mon, accepting us as human beings as dignified as straight people is not going to cause the kind of pain that I and others have endured. To this day, I still encounter conversations with people who assume they're not in polite company who suggest that they only want a few minutes with these ****ots and **kes to "set them straight", and that they'll be kind by NOT killing them.

And to this day, I STILL encounter online secret requests to be the hot bi woman for numerous hetero couples curiosities. How ridiculous that I'm still supposed to be invisible while being completely objectified...and consider now how easy it is for society to see somebody like me as easily and quickly disposable at that point?

Peacemaker, I'm not saying this to play the Oppression Olympics. I'm taking a stand for my humanity while pointing out the rhetoric and behavior that perpetuates the dehumanization of people like me. I share my story so that it can be known as another human's story facing societal marginalization. It's up to others to decide if they want to be on the side of further oppression and suffering or on the side of freedom and humanity.

Mystic: I've always liked you even if the feeling isn't mutual (which is understandable given some of my character defects). My position on homosexual behavior was cemented not by the Bible but by delving through "scientific findings" on the subject. As a layman I did some reading on the subject, sure a lot of them were written by Christian doctors or the FRC but studies they claimed to compile suggested that the behavior in question isn't nearly as harmless as proponents claim. Yes I realize that the official position of the APA is that it's perfectly normal but circumstances in which that classification was changed hinted at political pressure as opposed to new science. It's no secret that homosexuals suffer from all kinds behavioral problems (alcoholism, suicide, depression). I'm just not convinced it's all due to oppression. What about in countries like the Netherlands where acceptance is much greater? I've heard the numbers don't really change much. I'm sure someone here will post "the smoking gun" study which will supposedly refute everything I've read one the subject I've seen too much to be convinced it's all just some conspiracy to demonize gays. If it was all some conspiracy I would change my position on gay "marriage" in a heartbeat.

 

[LuisDantas]

Mystic: I've always liked you even if the feeling isn't mutual (which is understandable given some of my character defects). My position on homosexual behavior was cemented not by the Bible but by delving through "scientific findings" on the subject. As a layman I did some reading on the subject, sure a lot of them were written by Christian doctors or the FRC but studies they claimed to compile suggested that the behavior in question isn't nearly as harmless as proponents claim.

What kind of harm could possibly come from homosexual behavior?

Yes I realize that the official position of the APA is that it's perfectly normal but circumstances in which that classification was changed hinted at political pressure as opposed to new science.

The science isn't really very decisive or very new here IMO. It is the social maturity that has changed significantly. It is not that political pressure enabled the classification change; it rather inhibited and delayed it.

It's no secret that homosexuals suffer from all kinds behavioral problems (alcoholism, suicide, depression).

So it is not clear to you that those problems come directly from the social pressure to deny themselves, as opposed from homosexuality itself?

I'm just not convinced it's all due to oppression.

I have a hard time putting myself in your shoes then.

What about in countries like the Netherlands where acceptance is much greater? I've heard the numbers don't really change much. I'm sure someone here will post "the smoking gun" study which will supposedly refute everything I've read one the subject I've seen too much to be convinced it's all just some conspiracy to demonize gays. If it was all some conspiracy I would change my position on gay "marriage" in a heartbeat.

I guess I am simply not aware of your sources. My personal experience shows that rejection of homosexuality (and transgenderism and bisexuality too, Sangha, just in case it is not obvious) is not a bigger problem than homosexuality itself; it is the problem entire.

 

[McBell]

Mystic: I've always liked you even if the feeling isn't mutual (which is understandable given some of my character defects). My position on homosexual behavior was cemented not by the Bible but by delving through "scientific findings" on the subject. As a layman I did some reading on the subject, sure a lot of them were written by Christian doctors or the FRC but studies they claimed to compile suggested that the behavior in question isn't nearly as harmless as proponents claim. Yes I realize that the official position of the APA is that it's perfectly normal but circumstances in which that classification was changed hinted at political pressure as opposed to new science. It's no secret that homosexuals suffer from all kinds behavioral problems (alcoholism, suicide, depression). I'm just not convinced it's all due to oppression. What about in countries like the Netherlands where acceptance is much greater? I've heard the numbers don't really change much. I'm sure someone here will post "the smoking gun" study which will supposedly refute everything I've read one the subject I've seen too much to be convinced it's all just some conspiracy to demonize gays. If it was all some conspiracy I would change my position on gay "marriage" in a heartbeat.

Now all you need to do is reference to studies that show how your above listed "issues and whatever other "issues" you come up with are higher amoungst homosexuals.

Please keep in mind that the studies you present will need to actual studies, not the opinions of homophobes.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Mystic: I've always liked you even if the feeling isn't mutual (which is understandable given some of my character defects). My position on homosexual behavior was cemented not by the Bible but by delving through "scientific findings" on the subject. As a layman I did some reading on the subject, sure a lot of them were written by Christian doctors or the FRC but studies they claimed to compile suggested that the behavior in question isn't nearly as harmless as proponents claim. Yes I realize that the official position of the APA is that it's perfectly normal but circumstances in which that classification was changed hinted at political pressure as opposed to new science. It's no secret that homosexuals suffer from all kinds behavioral problems (alcoholism, suicide, depression). I'm just not convinced it's all due to oppression. What about in countries like the Netherlands where acceptance is much greater? I've heard the numbers don't really change much. I'm sure someone here will post "the smoking gun" study which will supposedly refute everything I've read one the subject I've seen too much to be convinced it's all just some conspiracy to demonize gays. If it was all some conspiracy I would change my position on gay "marriage" in a heartbeat.

There's no need to provide evidence of a conspiracy. It's culture. Cultural attitudes hold strong in which provides a safety net for which doctrinal or social rationale gives that queers are, by nature, "less than" and must deny a part of their own identity to be considered honorable.

I don't deride fantasies, porn, or pictures/audio of sex and sexual situations. In and of themselves, they reveal a lot about us as a society, and therefore provide a valuable social function and how we expect sex to unfold. And dang, if the industry itself shows us a LOT about how we repress and torture ourselves whether we are straight or queer.

Oh, and once I began finding communities that also accepted me, my self-destructive behavior subsided. Once I - like any other human - get the message that I matter simply for being present, and that I don't have to prove my worth, things radically change.

 

[gsa]

Mystic: I've always liked you even if the feeling isn't mutual (which is understandable given some of my character defects). My position on homosexual behavior was cemented not by the Bible but by delving through "scientific findings" on the subject. As a layman I did some reading on the subject, sure a lot of them were written by Christian doctors or the FRC but studies they claimed to compile suggested that the behavior in question isn't nearly as harmless as proponents claim. Yes I realize that the official position of the APA is that it's perfectly normal but circumstances in which that classification was changed hinted at political pressure as opposed to new science..

This is such nonsense. "Yeah, I realize that people who are financially invested in spreading anti-gay hate are publishing bogus studies that I am relying on to formulate my opinion, and yeah I know that there is a scientific consensus to the contrary in the only field that deals with behavioral abnormalities, but you know what I think that science caved into political pressure while the Family Research Council is just telling it like it is."

Of course, people who believe that young earth creationism and ID are on par with evolution have already traded truth for lies so why should we expect anything less abhorrent when it comes to treatment of their fellow human brothers and sisters? Degenerate minds give birth to moral perversion, on that much I can agree with conservative Christians; alas, they are the degenerates.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Oh, and once I began finding communities that also accepted me, my self-destructive behavior subsided. Once I - like any other human - get the message that I matter simply for being present, and that I don't have to prove my worth, things radically change.

Is the Church the community you're referring to that didn't accept you? When did you begin to identify as a bisexual? Do you equate "acceptance" with having no issues with how you want to live sexually? In other words is it even possible for someone who believes in the Christian God's sexual ethic to "accept" you?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's no secret that homosexuals suffer from all kinds behavioral problems (alcoholism, suicide, depression).

You are a heterosexual cisgender male. You do not have to experience the hardships, or even the difficulty, of claiming yourself and living as yourself. Transsexuals do have a high depression and suicide rate. But this very typically goes away as we live our lives, rather than trying to pretend to be who society says we are. Society also has very rigid sexual standards, especially towards men. A lot of people, especially straight men, consider male homosexuality to make a guy less of a man.
I also doubt you have seen the mental and psychological improvement of someone who begins to accept themselves. And unlike reparative therapy, which doesn't fair very well with long-term results, self-acceptance tends to lead towards life-long improvements.

 

[The Hammer]

This entire thread makes me sick. What's so hard about treating people like people regardless of their personal tastes in religion, sex, etc?

I may be an idealist, so I can't understand the hate, but I have never found it that hard to go "Cool, that's what you like? I don't like it, but if that is what you enjoy then keep doing it and be happy."

How is "live and let live" hard?

 

[methylatedghosts]

This entire thread makes me sick. What's so hard about treating people like people regardless of their personal tastes in religion, sex, etc?

I may be an idealist, so I can't understand the hate, but I have never found it that hard to go "Cool, that's what you like? I don't like it, but if that is what you enjoy then keep doing it and be happy."

How is "live and let live" hard?

If you come from a strong Christian background, you're coming from a place where someone is always, constantly watching and judging you on the way you behave, on the things you do. God simply does not, in that sense, live and let live. To relieve some of that pressure of having to live up to God's near-impossible standards and under His constant scrutiny, one way is to take the focus off yourself by pointing out others and the things they are doing wrong. In a way it's saying "I'm not prefect, but this guy here, he does all these things, so clearly he's even less perfect than I. I'm therefore so much better a person!"

 

[methylatedghosts]

What I see here, is a bunch of people falling into roughly 2 groups - those who accept the "alternative" sexualities and those who don't. I also see very little effort made by either party to truly and honestly understand one another, though this is perhaps occurring a little more in one direction than the other, given that more people have moved from non-acceptance to acceptance than the other way around.

Clearly these issues generate very strong feelings across the board and mean much to everyone. What is needed more here is an honest willingness to understand one another, where they come from, and the reasons we believe as we do. Then, perhaps, can we make headway towards creating an inclusive environment for all people, even if that means changing some of our own beliefs in order to make that happen.

I know I'd rather change a belief of mine, than to even begin to try changing who another person is. It's a hell of a lot simpler, and much, much less dangerous

 

[The Hammer]

If you come from a strong Christian background, you're coming from a place where someone is always, constantly watching and judging you on the way you behave, on the things you do. God simply does not, in that sense, live and let live. To relieve some of that pressure of having to live up to God's near-impossible standards and under His constant scrutiny, one way is to take the focus off yourself by pointing out others and the things they are doing wrong. In a way it's saying "I'm not prefect, but this guy here, he does all these things, so clearly he's even less perfect than I. I'm therefore so much better a person!"

And that is ridiculously awful thinking. You know who else exhibits that same type of thinking "I may be bad, but I am not that guy"? Any and every single addict on the planet, that is still active in their addiction.

I come from a "strong christian background" per se. Catholic Mother, Baptist Father. Went to 2 years of Catholic Sunday school. And I live in America, a nation that is mostly Christian.

But I have always lived in a "live and let live" mentality. It's how I was raised.

 

[The Hammer]

What I see here, is a bunch of people falling into roughly 2 groups - those who accept the "alternative" sexualities and those who don't. I also see very little effort made by either party to truly and honestly understand one another, though this is perhaps occurring a little more in one direction than the other, given that more people have moved from non-acceptance to acceptance than the other way around.

Clearly these issues generate very strong feelings across the board and mean much to everyone. What is needed more here is an honest willingness to understand one another, where they come from, and the reasons we believe as we do. Then, perhaps, can we make headway towards creating an inclusive environment for all people, even if that means changing some of our own beliefs in order to make that happen.

I know I'd rather change a belief of mine, than to even begin to try changing who another person is. It's a hell of a lot simpler, and much, much less dangerous

While I partially agree, I can't see how "understanding the other side would work in a positive manner. I am a bisexual male, and I understand full well, why certain religious groups believe the way they do (dislike/disapprove of) towards homosexuals/bisexuals/transgenders etc.

And I would be willing to say that most LGBT persons, understand that as well, as most of us had religious influence at some point while we were growing up.

That doesn't make the hate right/justified though. Just because they religiously disagree with it, doesn't mean they can enforce it on others.

 

[Nietzsche]

Mystic: I've always liked you even if the feeling isn't mutual (which is understandable given some of my character defects). My position on homosexual behavior was cemented not by the Bible but by delving through "scientific findings" on the subject. As a layman I did some reading on the subject, sure a lot of them were written by Christian doctors or the FRC but studies they claimed to compile suggested that the behavior in question isn't nearly as harmless as proponents claim. Yes I realize that the official position of the APA is that it's perfectly normal but circumstances in which that classification was changed hinted at political pressure as opposed to new science. It's no secret that homosexuals suffer from all kinds behavioral problems (alcoholism, suicide, depression). I'm just not convinced it's all due to oppression. What about in countries like the Netherlands where acceptance is much greater? I've heard the numbers don't really change much. I'm sure someone here will post "the smoking gun" study which will supposedly refute everything I've read one the subject I've seen too much to be convinced it's all just some conspiracy to demonize gays. If it was all some conspiracy I would change my position on gay "marriage" in a heartbeat.

Hmmmm. I'm gonna try something.

Mystic: I've always liked you even if the feeling isn't mutual (which is understandable given some of my character defects). My position on black behavior was cemented not by the Bible but by delving through "scientific findings" on the subject. As a layman I did some reading on the subject, sure a lot of them were written by White doctors or the American Independent Party but studies they claimed to compile suggested that the behavior in question isn't nearly as harmless as proponents claim. Yes I realize that the official position of the APA is that they're perfectly normal but circumstances in which that classification was changed hinted at political pressure as opposed to new science. It's no secret that blacks suffer from all kinds behavioral problems (drug abuse, gang violence, theft). I'm just not convinced it's all due to oppression. What about in countries like the Netherlands where acceptance is much greater? I've heard the numbers don't really change much. I'm sure someone here will post "the smoking gun" study which will supposedly refute everything I've read one the subject I've seen too much to be convinced it's all just some conspiracy to demonize blacks. If it was all some conspiracy I would change my position on black "equality" in a heartbeat.

When an argument is based on simple bigotry or what have you, it becomes extremely easy to interchange the names of other commonly persecuted groups while changing extremely little, if anything, of the argument itself and it say basically the same thing.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

And that is ridiculously awful thinking. You know who else exhibits that same type of thinking "I may be bad, but I am not that guy"? Any and every single addict on the planet, that is still active in their addiction.

I come from a "strong christian background" per se. Catholic Mother, Baptist Father. Went to 2 years of Catholic Sunday school. And I live in America, a nation that is mostly Christian.

But I have always lived in a "live and let live" mentality. It's how I was raised.

I actually believe this is false, despite the number of people self-identifying as "Christian". I believe this number includes people who are functionally agnostic despite their self-identification as "Christian" (ie cultural "Christians"). The last number I saw showed that a majority of Americans see no problem with fornication. To me this number is a far clearer indicator of one's spiritual status.

 

[Nietzsche]

I actually believe this is false, despite the number of people self-identifying as "Christian". I believe this number includes people who are functionally agnostic despite their self-identification as "Christian" (ie cultural "Christians"). The last number I saw showed that a majority of Americans see no problem with fornication. To me this number is a far clearer indicator of one's spiritual status.

You're not the supreme arbiter of what makes one a member of faith-A or faith-B.

 

[The Hammer]

I actually believe this is false, despite the number of people self-identifying as "Christian". I believe this number includes people who are functionally agnostic despite their self-identification as "Christian" (ie cultural "Christians"). The last number I saw showed that a majority of Americans see no problem with fornication. To me this number is a far clearer indicator of one's spiritual status.

I go off of what people say. If they say they are Christian or poll themselves as Christian, then that is what they are. There are hundred (if not thousands) of Christian denominations. And they all don't agree on the nitty gritty details of conducting their life, outside of obeying the 10 commandments, so to judge on actions alone, or what one perceives as anothers actions is absurd, and well judgmental.

Who are we to pass judgement on another, so long as they are not hurting people?

 

[gsa]

What I see here, is a bunch of people falling into roughly 2 groups - those who accept the "alternative" sexualities and those who don't. I also see very little effort made by either party to truly and honestly understand one another, though this is perhaps occurring a little more in one direction than the other, given that more people have moved from non-acceptance to acceptance than the other way around.

Clearly these issues generate very strong feelings across the board and mean much to everyone. What is needed more here is an honest willingness to understand one another, where they come from, and the reasons we believe as we do. Then, perhaps, can we make headway towards creating an inclusive environment for all people, even if that means changing some of our own beliefs in order to make that happen.

I know I'd rather change a belief of mine, than to even begin to try changing who another person is. It's a hell of a lot simpler, and much, much less dangerous

I understand them. What I refuse to do is great them like infants or children in need of guidance or even potentially open minded interlocutors. They're neither; they're modern equivalents of racists and antisemites who need to be shamed and stigmatized into irrelevance.

Not all sides of an argument are worthy of respect, and they extend none to the opposition anyway. Treating this as a fair point of disagreement is simply ceding the argument to the functional equivalent of someone who buys into geocentrism.

 

[LuisDantas]

This entire thread makes me sick. What's so hard about treating people like people regardless of their personal tastes in religion, sex, etc?

It often means giving up an easy, appealing source of self-assurance, getting in exchange the need to trust people we used to despise to feel better about ourselves.

Hey, I entirely sympathise. I was just answering your question.

I may be an idealist, so I can't understand the hate, but I have never found it that hard to go "Cool, that's what you like? I don't like it, but if that is what you enjoy then keep doing it and be happy."

How is "live and let live" hard?

Alas, many people simply never had the proper opportunity and encouragement to learn and accept it. Quite a few have learned the catchphrases and repeat them by rote habit. They need to, otherwise they would notice what they are actually doing.

Don't underestimate the powerful force of social reinforcement. To a very large extent, we learn that we must be whatever our social circles can handle.

 

[LuisDantas]

I understand them. What I refuse to do is great them like infants or children in need of guidance or even potentially open minded interlocutors. They're neither; they're modern equivalents of racists and antisemites who need to be shamed and stigmatized into irrelevance.

Not all sides of an argument are worthy of respect, and they extend none to the opposition anyway. Treating this as a fair point of disagreement is simply ceding the argument to the functional equivalent of someone who buys into geocentrism.

This, so much this.

 

[The Hammer]

It often means giving up an easy, appealing source of self-assurance, getting in exchange the need to trust people we used to despise to feel better about ourselves.

Hey, I entirely sympathise. I was just answering your question.

Alas, many people simply never had the proper opportunity and encouragement to learn and accept it. Quite a few have learned the catchphrases and repeat them by rote habit. They need to, otherwise they would notice what they are actually doing.

Don't underestimate the powerful force of social reinforcement. To a very large extent, we learn that we must be whatever our social circles can handle.

Which, explains my VERY limited circle of friends, and people I trust. *shrug*