Why do humans allow suffering?

[Milton Platt]

Wow. A second time too? ...and no you are not reading my mind. You are not able to know what I am thinking.
You just made thee mistake of stepping into a pile that you are trying to get out of without leaving your clothes soiled.
Deflection number two was not as good as number one.
Are you going to attempt a third?

You haven't answered any of the questions, and your assumptions are way off... actually dead wrong.

You asked me how I known that people make mistakes.......
I was assuming that you did not know that people made mistakes from the nature of your question. Are you saying you do know tht people make mistakes or you don't think they make mistakes? the answer to that question will answer your own.

 

[nPeace]

You asked me how I known that people make mistakes.......
I was assuming that you did not know that people made mistakes from the nature of your question. Are you saying you do know tht people make mistakes or you don't think they make mistakes? the answer to that question will answer your own.

Yes, you are assuming. I asked you three questions.

No need to dig them up. Here they are:
Humans are imperfect and make mistakes?
How did you arrive at that may I ask? What is imperfection, and how do you determine when a mistake has been made?

You don't have a problem explaining what you said, do you?

 

[nPeace]

God doesn't do enough to alleviate human suffering because of humans.
Humans don't do enough to alleviate human suffering because of God.

No.
God is doing something to alleviate human suffering.
Humans can't do enough to alleviate suffering because... they are not God

 

[shunyadragon]

I agree with that.
Because of the inferiority of man's wisdom, he will always bring harm to humankind even when he does what he thinks is good.
New Studies Link Cell Phone Radiation with Cancer

There seems to be an obvious reason for this - he fails to give proper attention to his spiritual need, and focuses only on his physical, or material needs - his "naturalism".

This not quite the natural nature of the fallible human I was referring to. It is not the philosophy of materialism or the various versions of naturalism. It is the fact that human nature is enherently natural and what is described a 'suffering' is very natural.

 

[siti]

Are you the intelligent, thoughtful fella in your avatar?

No - he's a distant cousin - but better looking than me - that's why I stole his photo for my avatar.

I acquired my avatar a few years back during an online discussion about - would you believe - ape spirituality (which I argued in favour of on the basis of observations made in the field by primatologists such as Frans de Waal and Jane Goodall. I was - as I often am - in a minority of one but I stuck so rigidly to my defense of my primate cousins' intelligence and advanced behavioural traits (as I interpret them) some of my opponents began to suspect I was a chimpanzee infiltrator into their forum. The avatar was a joke - but like my Mum always warned me - when you pull a face too much it might stick - and it did. I've been using it online ever since.

 

[shunyadragon]

Define suffering as an absolute, not an opinion. There are masochists that seek pain for happiness.

Suffering is not defined as either absolute nor an opinion. Suffering simply naturally exist. Disease, Death, predation, pain, accidents, and whatever is simply an integral part of the existence of life on earth including humans.

 

[nPeace]

This not quite the natural nature of the fallible human I was referring to. It is not the philosophy of materialism or the various versions of naturalism. It is the fact that human nature is enherently natural and what is described a 'suffering' is very natural.

I think we still agree.
The only difference is, you can't give a reason why it is naturally so. whereas I can... using the Bible, of course.

 

[siti]

God is doing something to alleviate human suffering.
Humans can't do enough to alleviate suffering because... they are not God

So the obvious solution is for God to pronounce all humans God - then the omnipotent power of His Word will make it so and suffering will end...oh wait...he already tried that and it didn't work - Psalms 82

 

[YmirGF]

I must have misunderstood you.
I though you were saying that although they have been progress made by some, in alleviating some problems, the vast majority of mankind don't don't pay attention to the fact that they contribute to the problems.
If I misunderstood you, I'm sorry.

I was just thinking that when it comes to God, persons acid against God don't reason that way - that the problems really lies with the vast majority of mankind who fail to pay attention, and just do as they like, regardless of the consequences.
That's all.

I sort of get what you are saying. I ignored that aspect of the OP because it is a POV I have never been keen about. Given that suffering is an integral part of the human condition I see no reason to suppose things would be otherwise even with a god in the driver's seat. That suffering exists is NOT evidence that there is no god.

 

[nPeace]

So the obvious solution is for God to pronounce all humans God - then the omnipotent power of His Word will make it so and suffering will end...oh wait...he already tried that and it didn't work - Psalms 82

Well not all humans... just a few.
...but they were lesser gods, not the same thing. We are talking about the Almighty God here... okay?

 

[Deidre]

What do you make of people like Stephen Hawking, who definitely didn't let his suffering or his condition ruin his quality of life? Or how do people rejoice despite their suffering? I personally think suffering sucks, but there are people out there who could teach me a lesson or two about how to deal with it better.

If a person is doing everything they can to get ahead in life and a drunk driver hits them leaving them paralyzed from the neck down, that obviously isn't because of their choice. Is there anything good about it?

If I was in a lot of Muslim-majority countries I would get my tongue cut out, get mutilated, get tortured, lose my nose, ears, or whatever, or spend decades in prison for simply speaking the truth about the regime in charge, the life of Muhammad, or pointing out calls to hate, torture, mass-killings, and disfigurement in the Qur'an.

Would you say, by speaking against tyranny "I make poor choices and suffer because of those choices"? Or perhaps, I'm suffering the consequences of doing the right thing?

If a person is doing everything they can to get ahead in life and a drunk driver hits them leaving them paralyzed from the neck down, that obviously isn't because of their choice. Is there anything good about it?

If I was in a lot of Muslim-majority countries I would get my tongue cut out, get mutilated, get tortured, lose my nose, ears, or whatever, or spend decades in prison for simply speaking the truth about the regime in charge, the life of Muhammad, or pointing out calls to hate, torture, mass-killings, and disfigurement in the Qur'an.

Would you say, by speaking against tyranny "I make poor choices and suffer because of those choices"? Or perhaps, I'm suffering the consequences of doing the right thing?

 

[Milton Platt]

Yes, you are assuming. I asked you three questions.

No need to dig them up. Here they are:
Humans are imperfect and make mistakes?
How did you arrive at that may I ask? What is imperfection, and how do you determine when a mistake has been made?

You don't have a problem explaining what you said, do you?

Yes, humans make mistakes.

I know humans make mistakes because I am human and make mistakes and have observed others make mistakes.
Imperfection is a flaw in design, or function

A mistake is an action that does not produce the intended outcome. It can also be an errorin thinking, such as adding up numbers and coming up with an incorrect abswer. These examples or neither exclusive nor all-inclusive. Just givibg some simple one since you seem to not know how to recocnize mistakes. Some mistakes can end up having positive results. But they were still mistakes.

Can you get off the pedantic crap and move on, now?

 

[Milton Platt]

I sort of get what you are saying. I ignored that aspect of the OP because it is a POV I have never been keen about. Given that suffering is an integral part of the human condition I see no reason to suppose things would be otherwise even with a god in the driver's seat. That suffering exists is NOT evidence that there is no god.

It can be evidence that a particular god does not exist, depending upon the specific definition and characteristics of the proposed god. But in broad strokes, I agree with you.

 

[siti]

Well not all humans... just a few.
...but they were lesser gods, not the same thing. We are talking about the Almighty God here... okay?

So he hasn't tried making all humans God then? Perhaps he should.

 

[nPeace]

I sort of get what you are saying. I ignored that aspect of the OP because it is a POV I have never been keen about. Given that suffering is an integral part of the human condition I see no reason to suppose things would be otherwise even with a god in the driver's seat. That suffering exists is NOT evidence that there is no god.

So you have never asked the question why... why suffering is an integral part of the human condition?
It seems so foreign to me, considering our conscious being yearn so much for the opposite.

For example...
When a veteran is killed in war, his wife is not comforted by a Sargent saying, "He died for a good cause."
She want to know why war? Why is it necessary? Minus war means minus soldiers, and minus death by war.

So, it would seem, they has to be an answer to why suffering. If we know the answer, then minus that, means minus suffering.

Cause and effect is true science, and worth utilizing.

 

[nPeace]

So he hasn't tried making all humans God then? Perhaps he should.

Why? Oh... you think he is incompetent.
Take a look at this, and tell me what you think of the classroom example.

 

[siti]

Take a look at this, and tell me what you think of the classroom example.

I'm familiar with the "great issue" argument and the supporting "time for the issue to be settled" argument. Essentially it boils down to an omniscient and omnipotent God being unable to think of a better way to discipline a rebellious angel than subjecting billions of (mostly unsuspecting) humans to thousands of years of unmitigated suffering because one of them got caught off guard a very long time ago. Its silly. (And I used to believe it).

 

[Spiderman]

What do you make of people like Stephen Hawking, who definitely didn't let his suffering or his condition ruin his quality of life? Or how do people rejoice despite their suffering? I personally think suffering sucks, but there are people out there who could teach me a lesson or two about how to deal with it better.

I absolutely want to be like such people.

Merlin Carothers praised and thanked God for every bad thing that happened to him and God made all things work for good.

Max Kolbe was happy and singing as he died in Auschwitz.

Saint Dominic used to tell people, "pray for the grace to love suffering".

I wish i could be like that!

 

[YmirGF]

So you have never asked the question why... why suffering is an integral part of the human condition?
It seems so foreign to me, considering our conscious being yearn so much for the opposite.

Sadly, much suffering in our world is self-inflicted. There are a host of causes that inflict wanton suffering on swaths of people but most of us didn't need outside help to screw things up on occasion.

For example...
When a veteran is killed in war, his wife is not comforted by a Sargent saying, "He died for a good cause."
She want to know why war? Why is it necessary? Minus war means minus soldiers, and minus death by war.

Most die in wars because they believe in a cause that elevates their side of a conflict over that of their adversary. I don't think too many sit there wondering why afterwards. In most cases folks are glad when they make it out of such horrors in one or two pieces.

So, it would seem, they has to be an answer to why suffering. If we know the answer, then minus that, means minus suffering.

Cause and effect is true science, and worth utilizing.

Dare I ask? English is not your native language, is it?

 

[Deidre]

I think Buddhism teaches that suffering is a choice. Not 100% sure on that but think I understood it correctly.

I wonder why we feel that life should be without suffering? Is it that mindset that sets us up for failure? Hmm.

I absolutely want to be like such people.

Merlin Carothers praised and thanked God for every bad thing that happened to him and God made all things work for good.

Max Kolbe was happy and singing as he died in Auschwitz.

Saint Dominic used to tell people, "pray for the grace to love suffering".

I wish i could be like that!