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Why do liberals and gay rights activists say that gay marriage is similar to interracial marriage?

Do you consider gay marriage to be similar to interracial marriage?


  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .

Baladas

An Págánach
They are only similar in that they both involve groups of people who want to marry the people they love, and are being discriminated against for it because they were born a certain way.

Marriage is not a Christian idea, nor a Western idea.

State-recognized homosexual marriages existed in times as ancient as the Zhou Dynasty of China (1046-256 BCE).

It's about love, not what you have in your pants.
 
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Deidre

Well-Known Member
I haven't heard that ''argument'' used very often, to be honest. Gay people simply wish to be treated with equality as any other group. I don't care for the terms 'majority' and 'minority' because it implies that if you are a minority, then there is something off setting you from the others. Not everyone thinks and acts the same, and I'm glad about that. I wish we'd stop labeling everyone simply because of differences.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Straw man.
I haven't heard people arguing that gay and interracial marriages are similar. What I do hear pointed out is that the arguments against them are similar -- "unnatural, against tradition and historic practices, a threat to our social fabric, against God's law," &c.

Interchangeable objections to scarey new social phenomena and to general ickyness, possibly generated by the same atavistic neurology and innate paranoia.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
They are only similar in that they both involve groups of people who want to marry the people they love, and are being discriminated against for it because they were born a certain way.

Marriage is not a Christian idea, nor a Western idea.

State-recognized homosexual marriages existed in times as ancient as the Zhou Dynasty of China (1046-256 BCE).

It's about love, not what you have in your pants.
All the historical examples of what could be termed "marriage" between males I know of consisted of a man and what we would call a trans woman today. One of them took on the feminine or female role and acted as the "wife". I don't know of any historical examples of same-sex marriage between masculine men. That seems to be a very new concept. (I don't know much about historical examples of female homosexual marriages, so I can't comment.)
 

Baladas

An Págánach
All the historical examples of what could be termed "marriage" between males I know of consisted of a man and what we would call a trans woman today. One of them took on the feminine or female role and acted as the "wife". I don't know of any historical examples of same-sex marriage between masculine men. That seems to be a very new concept. (I don't know much about historical examples of female homosexual marriages, so I can't comment.)
Ah, I suppose you are probably correct. What I've read refereed to the unions as homosexual unions, but they could very likely have been trans.
I'm sorry about that. I doubt that that matters to the OP though.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Ah, I suppose you are probably correct. What I've read refereed to the unions as homosexual unions, but they could very likely have been trans.
I'm sorry about that. I doubt that that matters to the OP though.
I just wanted to put that out there because that fact doesn't seem to be recognized as much.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
I guess they can be considered similar, in that in both cases peope aren't allowed to marry the one they love due to, in my opinion, superficial reasons.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Subject title should read like this:- "Why do liberals and gay rights activists say that gay marriage is similar to interracial marriage, when they are clearly not the same?"

Mainly because in both cases there is an attempt at muscling into personal rights out of social disconfort.

I personally see homosexual marriage as even more legitimate and necessary than interracial. While they are not worth keeping or defending, ethnical divides at least have some factual basis and history, and for the most part it could be argued that there are alternatives (albeit ones that should not be imposed on the people actually involved).

By contrast, denial of same sex marriage is simply an attempt at decreeing same sex relationships lesser than heterosexual ones.

(...)

Those who are party to gay marriage or interracial marriage have been depicted as "minorities" in their own right; because each group will detract from the social norm of straight marriage between people of the same ethnicity.

Which, of course, should be destroyed. I don't like being subtle when subtlety is harmful.

(...)

More importantly, one could say that they are not the same in a fundamental sense because interracial marriage is more acceptable to society than gay marriage. Whereas, a man and woman can always procreate via a natural process, gay people can only do so via deviant methods, such as artificial insemination or surrogacy (although straight couples who are unable to have children will use the same methods to procreate such people are in a small minority, and it doesn't detract from the fact such methods are still considered to be deviant or unnatural by society as a whole).

Yeah... that perception, too, must be allowed and encouraged to die off quickly. Calling same sex couples "deviant"... really?

Besides, it is not even factually accurate. Homosexuals have offspring fairly often, to everyone's benefit. I believe them to be on average better parents than heteros, even.

And that is before considering how misguided a yardstick for legitimacy the ability of reproducing is.


Not only is interracial marriage more acceptable to society than gay marriage, but same sex marriage is clearly inferior to heterosexual marriage, even between partners of different ethnic origin. Because minorities are different and not the same. Which implies that each minority group will occupy a different space in the social pecking order or social hierarchy; because Hispanic people are not the same as Black people, who're not the same as people of Asian descent.

Ex-cu-se meeee? I take it you were hurried and wrote on an impulse. You almost seem to believe racism is objectively justified.


(...)

Therefore, gay marriage is obviously inferior to straight marriage between men and women no matter what their ethnic background; because different minorities will occupy different space in the social pecking order, but it would do no justice to pretend that such difference do not exist.

"Obviously inferior", my "something".

What makes a marriage inferior to any other is its lack of ability to bring happiness and good quality of life to the people involved in it. On that front, same sex marriage is clearly on the high ground when compared to the typical random marriage.

And I will have to assume you have not noticed how unadvisable it is to even talk seriously of a social pecking order based on ethnicity.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All the historical examples of what could be termed "marriage" between males I know of consisted of a man and what we would call a trans woman today. One of them took on the feminine or female role and acted as the "wife". I don't know of any historical examples of same-sex marriage between masculine men. That seems to be a very new concept. (I don't know much about historical examples of female homosexual marriages, so I can't comment.)
Argument from novelty?
How are these points relevant?
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The arguments against either will be somewhere along the line that interracial marriage is damaging to the purity of the 'race' through racial mixing, whereas in the case of homosexual/bisexual relations is that it is socially deviant because marriage is necessitated by procreation and hence "normal" relationships are assumed to be hetrosexual. Both arguments would focus on the results of the marriage by applying a social standard which is totally divorced from the reason people want to marry and have sexual relations and ignoring the individuals ability to make their own decision. Liberals will make the comparision, in so far as society is denying a person their "natural right" to marry one another based on a consentual relationship, as opposed to state regulation prohibition marriage based on racial or gender qualification. However, this is a hypothetical response as I haven't heard such a comparision actually being made.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I said I was just mentioning it because often don't realize the context of those historical relationships.
OK.... but I don't think I'm quite following.
redface.gif

Even if you're right about the historical novelty of today's gay marriage, how does this inveigh against it?
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
All the historical examples of what could be termed "marriage" between males I know of consisted of a man and what we would call a trans woman today. One of them took on the feminine or female role and acted as the "wife". I don't know of any historical examples of same-sex marriage between masculine men. That seems to be a very new concept. (I don't know much about historical examples of female homosexual marriages, so I can't comment.)
I'm not sure if you'd really call it marriage, but the Sacred Band comes to mind. If memory serves some Native American tribes also had a practice wherein two men(that is, two masculines I suppose) could enter into relations. Don't quote me on that one though.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Subject title should read like this:- "Why do liberals and gay rights activists say that gay marriage is similar to interracial marriage, when they are clearly not the same?"

Black people are not the same as gay people, who are not the same as disabled people and other minorities. Because two people are classed as minorities - or so-called "protected categories" under European law - doesn't mean that they are "equal" or the same.

Minorities are different and not the same. The only thing they have in common is the fact that all minorities are politically disenfranchised in a different sense to one another. But the difference is far more important than any similarities between them.

Those who are party to gay marriage or interracial marriage have been depicted as "minorities" in their own right; because each group will detract from the social norm of straight marriage between people of the same ethnicity.

However, it would do no justice at all to assume that "gay marriage and interracial marriage are fundamentally the same" since they are clearly not the same.

More importantly, one could say that they are not the same in a fundamental sense because interracial marriage is more acceptable to society than gay marriage. Whereas, a man and woman can always procreate via a natural process, gay people can only do so via deviant methods, such as artificial insemination or surrogacy (although straight couples who are unable to have children will use the same methods to procreate such people are in a small minority, and it doesn't detract from the fact such methods are still considered to be deviant or unnatural by society as a whole).

Not only is interracial marriage more acceptable to society than gay marriage, but same sex marriage is clearly inferior to heterosexual marriage, even between partners of different ethnic origin. Because minorities are different and not the same. Which implies that each minority group will occupy a different space in the social pecking order or social hierarchy; because Hispanic people are not the same as Black people, who're not the same as people of Asian descent.

Since minorities are different and not the same, it means that black people are obviously not the same as gay people, who're not the same as disabled people and other minorities.

Therefore, gay marriage is obviously inferior to straight marriage between men and women no matter what their ethnic background; because different minorities will occupy different space in the social pecking order, but it would do no justice to pretend that such difference do not exist.

________________________________________________________________________

Please discuss this article based on your knowledge of the Bible and/or U.S. and European politics.
They aren't exactly equal, but they're similar in a few major respects:

- opposition to both is rooted in bigotry.
- opposition to interracial marriage was often based on religious arguments, just like opposition to same-sex marriage today.
- decades from now, opposition to same-sex marriage will be considered just as shameful as opposition to interracial marriage is seen today.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Straw man.
I haven't heard people arguing that gay and interracial marriages are similar. What I do hear pointed out is that the arguments against them are similar -- "unnatural, against tradition and historic practices, a threat to our social fabric, against God's law," &c.

Interchangeable objections to scarey new social phenomena and to general ickyness, possibly generated by the same atavistic neurology and innate paranoia.
I haven't heard it much either, but I have seen arguments that kind of approach it, since most Western nations treat gender discrimination and racial discrimination the same way under the law.

If we were talking about employment, we'd consider it unjust if someone was barred from certain jobs because of their race OR gender.

When it comes to marriage, we consider it unjust when someone is barred from certain potential spouses because of their race; if discrimination is as big an issue as our society likes to say it is, then we should also have a problem with people being barred from certain potential spouses because of their gender, too.
 
They are similar in that Christians oppose both.

Wrong. Christianity does not oppose interracial marriage, but it simply belies what you want other people to think.

Besides, it's against God's commandment to oppose interracial marriage since the second commandment is to "love thy neighbour", but those who oppose such marriage are clearly in breach of God's commandment. (Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:30-31; Luke 10:27)

However, according to God's law, those who consistently disobey His commandment are not truly Christian as such; but will be consigned to the lake of fire on the day of judgment. (Isaiah 30:14; Matthew 13:40-41; and Revelation 20:15, 21:8)

They base this opposition on their interpretation of the Bible.
But that's only true of your country, not anywhere else in the civilised world.

Besides, such interpretation of the Bible is largely antiquated or outdated, even in the context of America's social, cultural, and political norms, as much as it is now rejected by Christianity in the mainstream.
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Besides, such interpretation of the Bible is largely antiquated or outdated, even in the context of America's social, cultural, and political norms, as much as it is now rejected by Christianity in the mainstream.

And soon enough the orientation bigotry will be rejected as well.
Moral improvements of this kind are happening at such a rate that you will probably be an embarrassment while you're still around.
You likely already have become one, you just don't realise it.
If you think all Christians have gotten over the race thing, take a stroll through stormfrontdotorg.
Tom
 
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