Why do many Christians claim the Spirit of God is a Holy ‘Ghost’?

[IndigoChild5559]

Good post, would only argue with one sentence: they brought an older version of German with them.

English was never a variant of German as far as I am aware.

Besides that, this is a very good evaluation and I expect it to be be completely shoved aside, unfortunately.

Thanks for the thumbs up

I'm just curious. When the Saxons first arrived in England from Germany, what language do you think they spoke at that time?

 

[Soapy]

The problem here is that the OP is stuck on a single definition of the word 'ghost' and completely ignoring all other definitions of the word "ghost".

YES!!!! Because we are in a Scriptural forum and the question is about a Scriptural matter. So, Yes, I AM referring to the scriptural meaning.

 

[Soapy]

Thanks for the thumbs up

I'm just curious. When the Saxons first arrived in England from Germany, what language do you think they spoke at that time?

What was the religious belief system of the Saxons?

 

[Soapy]

Don't even have to go very far.
I presented the etymology in post #45:

Why do many Christians claim the Spirit of God is a Holy ‘Ghost’?

No I,m not familiar with pre-1611 Bibles in English. A SDA minister gave a KJV Bible to me when I was studying Christianity as a young man. It had a concordance and I became familiar with that Bible and learned passages from that Bible. The word Ghost and Spirit in the KJV did not bother me as I...

www.religiousforums.com

Exactly… thanks:

• ‘… In Christian writing in Old English it is used to render Latin spiritus (see spirit (n.)), a sense preserved in Holy Ghost. Sense of "disembodied spirit of a dead person," especially imagined as wandering among the living or haunting them, is attested from late 14c. and returns the word toward its likely prehistoric sense.’

 

[McBell]

YES!!!! Because we are in a Scriptural forum and the question is about a Scriptural matter. So, Yes, I AM referring to the scriptural meaning.

Please present the verse that defines "ghost"

I flat out ask because your OP only presents the dictionary definition you have been clinging to.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

YES!!!! Because we are in a Scriptural forum and the question is about a Scriptural matter. So, Yes, I AM referring to the scriptural meaning.

The Scriptures are not in English, so they use neither ghost nor spirit. The Hebrew texts use "ruach," and the Greek texts use "pneuma."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Dictionary definition of a ‘GHOST’ is:

• ‘An apparition of a dead person which is believed to appear or become manifest to the living, typically as a nebulous image.’

How does this definition apply to what is called, ‘The Third Person’ of the trinity?

Take into account that a Ghost is ‘of a DEAD’ person - yet the Spirit of God is a ‘LIFE GIVING’ entity.

Is the term, Holy Ghost, just an example of malicious thinking and teaching, or is it just to be taken as ignorance in innocence thinking and preaching?

Please see post #143 Why do many Christians claim the Spirit of God is a Holy ‘Ghost’?

What you don't seem to understand is that languages evolve. Today's meaning in English of ghost is not the same as long ago. Originally the word had a much broader definition than "spirit of a dead person." It referred to living spirits as well, such as angels and demons...and God.

Let me show you how English has changed;

Here is a sample of Old English, from Beowulf:
Hwæt! Wē Gār-Dena in geārdagum, þēodcyninga þrym gefrūnon, hū ðā æþelingas ellen fremedon

Here is a sample of Middle English from Canterbury Tales:
Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote

Here is a sample of Early Modern English from Hamlet:
Thrift, thrift, Horatio! The Funerall bak'd Meats
Did coldly furnish forth the Marriage Tables.

Just as whole new words and grammar and spelling evolve, SO DO THE MEANINGS OF WORDS. Take for example the word "sillly." Originally it was an Old English word "sǣlig," that meant happy, fortunate, or blessed. Today, "silly" means lacking in good sense, foolish, or frivolous.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What was the religious belief system of the Saxons?

Irrelevant. My question was what LANGUAGE they spoke when they first arrived in England. The answer is they spoke Old Low German. They did not speak either Hebrew or Greek, and neither do you.

 

[Soapy]

Please present the verse that defines "ghost"

I flat out ask because your OP only presents the dictionary definition you have been clinging to.

What are you talking about… what nonsense are you on about….??

How many times have I presented the definition… ten, twenty… more?

Where have you been?

But, because it’s no problem to me to answer you:

: a disembodied soul. especially : the soul of a dead person believed to be an inhabitant of the unseen world or to appear to the living in bodily likeness. 3. : spirit, demon.

Merriam-Webster: America's Most Trusted Dictionary › ...

Ghost Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster​

 

[Tamino]

What is ‘Der Heilig Heist’ … what does it translate to?

I looked it up and it says: ‘The Holy Spirit’, and separately, ‘The saintly mind’.

There you go. You finally found out what we've been trying to tell you all along: the German word "Geist" has several meanings, depending on context.

But I love this one:

• ‘'Geist ist Geil' is German for 'Thriftiness is sexy'

But I guess you would say:

• [The] Ghost is sexy’….

No, you missed the joke entirely.
We had this wide-spread and annoying ad campaign in Germany featuring the slogan "Geiz ist geil"... More like "stinginess is sexy"... and promoting the ideal of an uneducated but street-smart person knowing how to get the best deal.

As an ironic reaction, some people switched it to "Geist is geil" - "intellect is sexy", and used it to critique inconsiderate consumerism and promote the German intellectual tradition

It's being used without the article on purpose. "Der Geist ist geil" would be ambiguous, since one would ask which ghost and which meaning of the word we're talking about. The dead person? The mind? The holy spirit?.
"Geist ist geil", on the other hand, is clear. The abstract without the article is only used with the meaning of "mind, intellect"

 

[Soapy]

The Scriptures are not in English, so they use neither ghost nor spirit. The Hebrew texts use "ruach," and the Greek texts use "pneuma."

And again, ‘Ruach’, and ‘Pneuma’, do not refer to a Ghost?

So you just shot yourself in the foot, or in a worst place!

 

[Soapy]

Irrelevant. My question was what LANGUAGE they spoke when they first arrived in England. The answer is they spoke Old Low German. They did not speak either Hebrew or Greek, and neither do you.

No, MY question is not irrelevant. The question yoh asked was not to me.

I asked you a separate question relating to the thread topic. You can still await the answer to your question from the poster you asked it to.

You can’t say what the belief was because you know that you would have to say that it was, in a nutshell, PAGAN.

You just keep shooting yourself in painful places and ignoring the injury you cause to your Soul. Do you so much enjoy the pain …?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What???? Show me a LEGITIMATE dictionary that DOES NOT define ‘Ghost’ as a ‘Disembodied Spirit of a dead person’ (or words to the same effect!)

There were no dictionaries yet when "ghost" first came into English. But certainly back in THAT time, it was not limited to spirits of the dead. It also at that time referred to living spirits like angels, demons, and God.

What is ‘Der Heilig Heist’ … what does it translate to?

You got the word wrong. It's Der Heilige Geist, not Heist.

There is no such word as heist in German, although there is the word "heißt" which is the singular third person verb that means "to be called" or "to mean"

The expresion Heilige Geist quite specifically means the Holy Spirit. In the original Old High German , the term for "the Holy Spirit" would be "der heilago geist." And by the way, you misspelled Heilige just like you mispelled Geist.

The word geist has a number of different meanings in German: spirit or ghost, mind or intellect, apparition, spirituality or inspiration, and humor/wit.

• ‘'Geist ist Geil' is German for 'Thriftiness is sexy'

No it isn't. "Geist ist geil" is a German phrase that translates to "Spirit is awesome" or "Mind is awesome" You see, although geil CAN be translated as horny or lustful, it also can mean something as cool, awesome, or great, similar to saying "awesome" or "cool" in English slang.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And again, ‘Ruach’, and ‘Pneuma’, do not refer to a Ghost?

Depends on when in history you examine the definition of Ghost, which changed over time. The way ghost (gæst) was understood in Old English can indeed mean the same thing as "ruach." In Greek, the word "pneuma" (πνεῦμα) translates as spirit or ghost, breath, and wind.

You really should be catching on by now. The fact that you aren't is troublesome.

 

[Soapy]

There you go. You finally found out what we've been trying to tell you all along: the German word "Geist" has several meanings, depending on context.

Which part of ‘Geist’ sad ‘Ghost’ in what I showed you such that you say that I should see what others have been showing me?

I put it to you that the topic is about the holy scriptures and what it means that someone should call the Spirit of God, a ‘Ghost’.

What has happened is that those who cannot answer feel offended by their ignorance and have sought defence in going outside of the topic definition to adopt, in this thread, an external definition. An example of this behaviour is found in the word/term, ‘Angel’… It’s true meaning is of ‘A created being, a Messenger of God, whose residence is in Heaven’ (obvious referring to ‘Holy’ messengers) which are SPIRIT CREATIONS of God. However, the term can be expanded to mean ‘ANYONE (human, animal, spirit, or just ethereal) such that we can call a dog who discovers a hurt and lost person and barks to alert a human to come help, ‘An Angel’.
Of course, that dog is not ‘A Spirit creation of God residing in Heaven’. Today, people even flippantly, over-casually, senselessly, call people ‘Angel’ (“Thanks … You’re an Angel!”). The casual adoption of spiritual terms makes many people feel ‘good’ but, in fact, devalues the holiness of the word/term (‘Jesus Christ, why did you spill that drink on me?’ … which the Bible warns not to do pointing starkly towards ‘The Spirit of God’:

• ‘Do not grieve the Spirit of God’

Or would you say, ‘Do not grieve the Ghost of God’?

No, you missed the joke entirely.
We had this wide-spread and annoying ad campaign in Germany featuring the slogan "Geiz ist geil"... More like "stinginess is sexy"... and promoting the ideal of an uneducated but street-smart person knowing how to get the best deal.

No, YOU missed the joke…. since you would have to say, ‘The Ghost is sexy’!!!

As an ironic reaction, some people switched it to "Geist is geil" - "intellect is sexy", and used it to critique inconsiderate consumerism and promote the German intellectual tradition

It's being used without the article on purpose. "Der Geist ist geil" would be ambiguous, since one would ask which ghost and which meaning of the word we're talking about. The dead person? The mind? The holy spirit?.
"Geist ist geil", on the other hand, is clear. The abstract without the article is only used with the meaning of "mind, intellect"

Now you are off down the rabbit hole. How easy it is to get off topic and then STAY off topic arguing a completely different aspect. At this point I interject and ask the poster to create a new thread topic and put their point into that instead.

 

[Soapy]

There were no dictionaries yet when "ghost" first came into English. But certainly back in THAT time, it was not limited to spirits of the dead. It also at that time referred to living spirits like angels, demons, and God.

You got the word wrong. It's Der Heilige Geist, not Heist.

There is no such word as heist in German, although there is the word "heißt" which is the singular third person verb that means "to be called" or "to mean"

The expresion Heilige Geist quite specifically means the Holy Spirit. In the original Old High German , the term for "the Holy Spirit" would be "der heilago geist." And by the way, you misspelled Heilige just like you mispelled Geist.

The word geist has a number of different meanings in German: spirit or ghost, mind or intellect, apparition, spirituality or inspiration, and humor/wit.

No it isn't. "Geist ist geil" is a German phrase that translates to "Spirit is awesome" or "Mind is awesome" You see, although geil CAN be translated as horny or lustful, it also can mean something as cool, awesome, or great, similar to saying "awesome" or "cool" in English slang.

Rinse and repeat…. Going around in circles that are off topic … arguing about the definitions of words …. Detracting from the point and purpose of the thread topic.

It is clear that the ‘Ghost of God’ supporters are desperate and cannot provide any proof or evidence that there is such a thing as:

• ‘The Ghost of God’

Nor that:

• ‘God has Ghost’

Nor that:

• ‘A Ghost can be said to be Holy’

NOR that anyone before the medieval period ever called the Spirit of God, ‘a Ghost’.

And the refusal to name the belief system of the Saxons / Anglo-Saxons tells a whole heap about the efficacy and the intentions of the poster who so refused.

Unless they can produce answers here, now!!! But the answer is highly likely to be, ‘I cannot’.
But let’s see!!

A lesson learnt is worth a million arguments. Try to believe before you get to that million!!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Which part of ‘Geist’ sad ‘Ghost’ in what I showed you such that you say that I should see what others have been showing me?

OMGosh. You can't seem to learn. I gave you six different translations of "geist" on of which is ghost. Your obstinance isn't helping you.

I put it to you that the topic is about the holy scriptures and what it means that someone should call the Spirit of God, a ‘Ghost’.

I explained IN GREAT DETAIL who the meaning of ghost has changed over time, and that it is acceptable (though awkward) to use its older meaning, just as many Christians enjoy using the older English of the KJV.

Today, people even flippantly, over-casually, senselessly, call people ‘Angel’ (“Thanks … You’re an Angel!”).

It's called an idiom. Sheesh.

The casual adoption of spiritual terms'

There is nothing spiritual about words. Words are simply labels we give to people, things, actions, etc. There is no such thing as any magical or heavenly language. Languages are simply tools we use to communicate.

Or would you say, ‘Do not grieve the Ghost of God’?

Actually if you want to be BIBLICAL, you would say, Καὶ μὴ λυπεῖτε τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον τοῦ θεοῦ, ἐν ᾧ ἐσφραγίσθητε εἰς ἡμέραν ἀπολυτρώσεως.. You would use ANY English word.

No, YOU missed the joke…. since you would have to say, ‘The Ghost is sexy’!!!

Your misunderstanding of this expression has already been corrected.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, MY question is not irrelevant. The question yoh asked was not to me.

But my post didn't ask YOUR question, it asked MY question. Thus, your response asking the religion of the Saxons was irrelevant.

If you would just set aside your know it all attitude for five mintues, you could learn something.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

NOR that anyone before the medieval period ever called the Spirit of God, ‘a Ghost’.

That is factually WRONG.

Why am I wasting my time? You clearly aren't interested in actually reading and understanding what I'm saying. You are willfully ignorant. Normally ignorance is not a vice. But when a person persists in their ignorance after being corrected time and again, that is very definitely a vice.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I put it to you that the topic is about the holy scriptures and what it means that someone should call the Spirit of God, a ‘Ghost’.

The Bible does NOT use either "spirit" or "ghost." It uses ruach and pneuma.

No, YOU missed the joke…. since you would have to say, ‘The Ghost is sexy’!!!

I see that you continue to irrepressibly mistranslate the expression. It doesn't make you look very smart.

Time for bed.