Why do people believe what they believe?

[Trailblazer]

Right. That's why all theologies cannot be right. Your whole OP fails on that hill.

Read it again.
My OP has nothing to do with whether theologies are right or wrong.

 

[firedragon]

Read it again.
My OP has nothing to do with whether theologies are right or wrong.

I didn't say you said they were right or wrong. You were proving subjective truths.

Anyway I think you are mixing up terms so that should end this conversation.

 

[stvdv]

Never start with a lie, I never said any such thing, I said Christianity is the only true religion....because.... etc. I also clearly said it's not 'my religion', which implies I'm responsible for it, I'm obviously not, it is the faith I follow, lets be clear about what is said please.

You can but you haven't, oki doki....

I see, why didn't you just say 'I can't' and save yourself some typing?

 

[stvdv]

You twist words again. It was about:
"My Religion is the only true Religion" = false

Never start with a lie, I never said any such thing, I said Christianity is the only true religion

I didn't say that you made this claim
I made this claim and a few others

Why do people believe what they believe?

"The one religion that is completely true is MY religion". I have no problem in saying how liberating it was for me to break free from my Christian indoctrination. It was one of the best decisions I've ever made.

www.religiousforums.com

You started challenging my claims
By using words twisting my original claims

 

[Nimos]

I guess I am a notable exception since I was not brought up in any religion or with a belief in God. I discovered the Baha'i Faith during my first years of college I was like a blank slate since I had never been religious. Moreover, I was not ever that interested in religion or curious about it like many young people since I was very busy with academia. I recall taking a world religions class in my first year of college and it was not of much interest to me.

If I had not stumbled upon the Baha'i Faith I may have never joined a religion. That was 54 years ago, but as I recall, I was not interested in God then but rather in the principles and teachings of the Faith and in things like the soul and the afterlife. I assumed that God existed since that is a Baha'i teaching, but I never really believed that God existed until much later in my life. As I recall, that interest was instigated when I read the book called Gleanings about 10 years ago and came to realize who God is and who Messengers of God are.

Since that time I have read and studied many more of the Baha'i Writings and I have read many parts of the Bible and I think I now know what I need to know. The Faith was a passion for me for many years but now I am looking to have more in my life, and that process was accelerated about 2 1/2 rears ago when my husband passed on. Unlike some Baha'is, I think there is more to life than religion and I want to find out what that is, especially since I am no longer a spring chicken. I am also trying to focus more on improving my character than on increasing my knowledge of religion, trying to live according to the Baha'i teachings in my everyday life, especially with regard to how I treat other people..

Agree, I think you are an exception in that regard. As I would assume that most people of that age, wouldn't bother with religious texts if they have no prior knowledge of it, simply given how "boring"/heavy those texts can be. And at least from my own experience, my interests simply weren't in those areas at all.

But yours could be explained if you had an interest in the soul and afterlife maybe, because it is often related to religion and not something that is part of natural science etc.

So obviously these things don't only work one way, people without religion can also find it or people can change religion.

But again I do think you are honest about your religion, you are aware of the potential issues etc. Which again doesn't necessarily or automatically make it wrong. But a lot of religious people wouldn't even acknowledge these things as being issues and to me that comes off as dishonest.

 

[Nimos]

I very much admire that attitude and way of life of humanists, which is why I greatly respect humanists like @It Aint Necessarily So and @Evangelicalhumanist.

Unlike most religious people, I do not think it is necessary to believe in God in order to do good works and contribute to society, and if fact being a member of a religion requires study and worship and meetings, which takes one's time away from being out in the world helping others.

I think one has to be careful because I don't think atheists as such spend more time helping others than religious people do. It's not like me being an atheist and THEREFORE I'm spending time helping others. Because honestly, I don't. Meaning I don't do charity work or volunteer stuff or go any further than any religious person would.

But I think it is more about one's overall view of others, the world, nature etc. God has no role to play in this, in an atheist view. If we want to improve the world in which we live, we have to do it. But most atheists just like the average religious person have close to no influence on it, it is a global issue of how one thinks humanity is best served as a whole. And therefore our view is often to support freedom of speech and other things that support the individual's rights. You don't often find atheists not in support of abortion in one way or another, and even if you find some that are against it, they obviously wouldn't make an argument based on a religious view. And I think that is probably the biggest difference, that atheists' views are not based on a principle which takes its roots in a higher power, which makes it nearly impossible to reach an agreement, because you are no longer sharing opinions or views based on rational thoughts and knowledge, but rather you are arguing against 3rd party that is claimed to not being able to be wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

But I think it is more about one's overall view of others, the world, nature etc. God has no role to play in this, in an atheist view.

It is also my view that God has no role to play in anything that happens in this world. I believe that God sends/appoints messengers to guide humanity but that is all that God does. If God is doing anything else we could never know what it is.

If we want to improve the world in which we live, we have to do it.

That is also my view. Unlike Christians, Baha'is do not believe that God or Jesus are going to build the kingdom of God on earth, we believe that is a job that was given to humans. If you ask a Christian how the kingdom of God, or what is referred to as the new earth in the Book of Revelation, is going to come to earth, they really have no conception of how that is going to happen, so I have to assume that they believe that Jesus or God are going to wave a magic wand and suddenly everything is going to change for the better.

 

[Nimos]

It is also my view that God has no role to play in anything that happens in this world. I believe that God sends/appoints messengers to guide humanity but that is all that God does. If God is doing anything else we could never know what it is.

That is also my view. Unlike Christians, Baha'is do not believe that God or Jesus are going to build the kingdom of God on earth, we believe that is a job that was given to humans. If you ask a Christian how the kingdom of God, or what is referred to as the new earth in the Book of Revelation, is going to come to earth, they really have no conception of how that is going to happen, so I have to assume that they believe that Jesus or God are going to wave a magic wand and suddenly everything is going to change for the better.

That I think allows for a more rational approach given that we as humans have to deal with things. It obviously doesn't answer the question of why God allow for certain things as we have talked about many times before, like animal suffering.

If you as a Christian believe Jesus is the son of God and God exists, how he would go about it, doesn't seem like that much of a mystery. If God created the Universe etc. bringing forth a new Earth shouldn't be that huge of an issue. So I don't really see any issues here given the premise.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you as a Christian believe Jesus is the son of God and God exists, how he would go about it, doesn't seem like that much of a mystery. If God created the Universe etc. bringing forth a new Earth shouldn't be that huge of an issue. So I don't really see any issues here given the premise.

Given the premised that God created the Universe?
I see a problem. If God created a new Earth, it would be like God admitting He made a mistake the first time.
Moreover, God gave man dominion over the earth and man messed it up. Why should/world God fix what man messed up?

 

[Nimos]

Given the premised that God created the Universe?
I see a problem. If God created a new Earth, it would be like God admitting He made a mistake the first time.
Moreover, God gave man dominion over the earth and man messed it up. Why should/world God fix what man messed up?

Yeah, the premise is that God can create with ease.

And I agree that it is not without its flaws One could argue that if God can create a place without evil etc. then why not do it from the beginning?

In short, God created the New Earth after the defeat of Satan and the bad people supporting him. And then his kingdom descends to Earth to be amongst the human and everything is good. And why he would do this, I think is linked to him forgiving humans or having rid Earth of evil and that this will serve as the final judgement, where humans that have been good are saved and those that aren't are punished.

Revelation is pretty weird in comparison to the rest of the Bible, it is almost like a fantasy novel at this point.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, the premise is that God can create with ease.

What the omnipotent God is capable of doing is irrelevant. God could also destroy everything in creation in a heartbeat, but He does not do that.

And I agree that it is not without its flaws One could argue that if God can create a place without evil etc. then why not do it from the beginning?

God DID create a place without evil, but then God gave man free will, and evil entered into the world of good and evil.

In short, God created the New Earth after the defeat of Satan and the bad people supporting him. And then his kingdom descends to Earth to be amongst the human and everything is good. And why he would do this, I think is linked to him forgiving humans or having rid Earth of evil and that this will serve as the final judgement, where humans that have been good are saved and those that aren't are punished.

I think you have been listening to Christians for too loooooooong.
I am soooooooo glad I am a Baha'i. We don't believe in Satan, the final judgment, or the need to be saved.

Revelation is pretty weird in comparison to the rest of the Bible, it is almost like a fantasy novel at this point.

It is like a fantasy novel if you interpret it literally.
I do not think it is intended to be interpreted literally, but when you try to figure out the symbolic meanings you can come up with all kinds of scenarios, and Christians certainly don't agree on those meanings, nor do Baha'is agree with Christians.

 

[Nimos]

What the omnipotent God is capable of doing is irrelevant. God could also destroy everything in creation in a heartbeat, but He does not do that.

The premise doesn't mean that God does something, simply that he could if he wanted to.

God DID create a place without evil, but then God gave man free will, and evil entered into the world of good and evil.

Well depends

If we go with the serpent being Satan, then clearly evil was there before free will, otherwise, it couldn't "trick" Eve and also for some reason, God allowed it to be in the garden.

I think you have been listening to Christians for too loooooooong.
I am soooooooo glad I am a Baha'i. We don't believe in Satan, the final judgment, or the need to be saved.

That is just what Revelation tells us, Im not judging whether it is true or false. But it would be my interpretation of it, despite it being some time since I read it, so maybe if I read it again I would slightly change my view on it, but that is at least how I recall it

It is like a fantasy novel if you interpret it literally.
I do not think it is intended to be interpreted literally, but when you try to figure out the symbolic meanings you can come up with all kinds of scenarios, and Christians certainly don't agree on those meanings, nor do Baha'is agree with Christians.

I think you have to interpret it, which I also think I already have done, I don't think you should interpret it to such a degree that you completely disregard what is actually written in it.

 

[Kathryn]

I very much admire that attitude and way of life of humanists, which is why I greatly respect humanists like @It Aint Necessarily So and @Evangelicalhumanist.

Unlike most religious people, I do not think it is necessary to believe in God in order to do good works and contribute to society, and if fact being a member of a religion requires study and worship and meetings, which takes one's time away from being out in the world helping others.

Anyone can help others.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I very much admire that attitude and way of life of humanists, which is why I greatly respect humanists like @It Aint Necessarily So and @Evangelicalhumanist.

Unlike most religious people, I do not think it is necessary to believe in God in order to do good works and contribute to society, and if fact being a member of a religion requires study and worship and meetings, which takes one's time away from being out in the world helping others.

Oftentimes, I find that non-Christians, including atheists, are more sympathetic and compassionate than most Christians I've met. Of course, this has been my experience throughout my life, and I realize that others may have entirely different experiences or personal opinions on the matter.

 

[Trailblazer]

The premise doesn't mean that God does something, simply that he could if he wanted to.

Fair enough.

Well depends

If we go with the serpent being Satan, then clearly evil was there before free will, otherwise, it couldn't "trick" Eve and also for some reason, God allowed it to be in the garden.

Baha'is believe that man did fall into sin, but not because Adam and Eve ate an apple from a tree. We believe that Adam was a Prophet, the first Prophet of the Adamic Cycle of religion. When Adam was born into this world He fell from the world of freedom in the spiritual world to the world of bondage of this material world. We are all descendants of Adam so we all inherited the propensity to sin.

Baha'is do not believe there is a being called Satan. We believe that the meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world.

“This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity......

The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 122-126

That is just what Revelation tells us, Im not judging whether it is true or false. But it would be my interpretation of it, despite it being some time since I read it, so maybe if I read it again I would slightly change my view on it, but that is at least how I recall it

As I always tell Christians, books do not talk, so they do not SAY anything. People have to read the words and interpret them and assign a meaning. I think that is what you have interpreted Revelation to mean, YOUR interpretation of it.

I think you have to interpret it, which I also think I already have done, I don't think you should interpret it to such a degree that you completely disregard what is actually written in it.

Well, you cannot disregard what is written since you need to read what is written in order to interpret it.

 

[Nimos]

Baha'is believe that man did fall into sin, but not because Adam and Eve ate an apple from a tree. We believe that Adam was a Prophet, the first Prophet of the Adamic Cycle of religion.....

So what is Eve's role in all this? just curios since you didn't mention her at all?

As I always tell Christians, books do not talk, so they do not SAY anything. People have to read the words and interpret them and assign a meaning. I think that is what you have interpreted Revelation to mean, YOUR interpretation of it.

Yes and no.

I think it is a fine balance because you can also over-interpret things and draw conclusions which isn't really there.

So when I make my interpretation for instance, saying it being the final judgement, I think this is supported by what is written in Revelation, it is not me just "feeling" that this is the conclusion.

Revelation 21:1-8
1 - Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
2 - And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 - And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
4 - He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
5 - And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6 - And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
7 - The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
8 - But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Based on what is highlighted I think it is reasonably supported to call this the final judgement, without over-interpretting the text.

Obviously, you might have a different view on this whole thing because you draw from other texts. I'm merely arguing based on what the Bible says.

 

[Muffled]

Why do some people believe in the religion that they believe in and not another religion?
Why do some people consider the existence of God to be self-evident while others think that belief in God has no basis?
Why do some people believe that the Bible is the word of God while others believe it is only the words of men?

I think the reason people believe in a religion or in God can be objective as well as subjective.
Even though there are objective facts associated with all religions, people are going to interpret those facts subjectively, which is why we don't all adhere to the same religion.

Regarding subjectivity, why do some people love cats and others love dogs, why do some people like rainy weather and others like sunny weather, and why do some people feel a need for a romantic relationship while others do not care about that at all?

The list goes on. We all have different desires and preferences so why would that not apply to the religion we choose to believe in?

I believe a lot of people believe what they want to believe. I pefer to believe what is true.

 

[Muffled]

Most of the time, is it because children are exposed to what their parents and the local community believe in.

Or people are brainwashed to a certain degree.

My parents believed in going to church on Christmas and Easter, my grandmother believed in going to church every sunday. I chose to believe as my grandmother believed.

 

[Muffled]

We don't choose what we believe in. As you say, we have different desires and preferences, which bias our beliefs.
Only when our desire for truth is stronger than the biases, can we objectively, rationally investigate the different religious claims.

I believe I like lobster and pork but I do not eat them because I like them but because Jesus made it plain that I could despite old testament rules.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe a lot of people believe what they want to believe. I pefer to believe what is true.

I believe a lot of people believe what they want to believe. I prefer to believe what is true.