Why do people deny or have various doubts about God?

[Bunyip]

So is it all made up by Saul/Paul? I don't understand how that's possible given the timeline.

Hang on mate.

You don't understand how Paul could possibly have made up a testimony he based on meetings he had with a person who was dead?

Paul's testimony is of the risen Jesus, the post mortem Jesus - not the living Jesus.
So either:
1. Paul really did communicate with a disembodied spirit
or 2. Paul made it up.

Surely 2 is rather MORE likely, as opposed to being impossible? And as far as we know 1 is impossible.

 

[Desert Snake]

Hang on mate.

You don't understand how Paul could possibly have made up a testimony he based on meetings he had with a person who was dead?

Paul's testimony is of the risen Jesus, the post mortem Jesus - not the living Jesus.
So either:
1. Paul really did communicate with a disembodied spirit
or 2. Paul made it up.

Surely 2 is rather MORE likely, as opposed to being impossible? And as far as we know 1 is impossible.

The timeline doesn't add up, Saul/Paul wasn't the first Xian.
what? I'm talking about the historical jesus of course.

 

[Bunyip]

The timeline doesn't add up, Saul/Paul wasn't the first Xian.

What timeline? Nobody knows the timeline -we don't even know what years Jesus mission or birth took place.

 

[Desert Snake]

What timeline? Nobody knows the timeline -we don't even know what years Jesus mission or birth took place.

Sheesh so you're agreeing with me.

 

[Bunyip]

The timeline doesn't add up, Saul/Paul wasn't the first Xian.
what? I'm talking about the historical jesus of course.

Paul never met the historical Jesus my friend. He met the risen Jesus, after the ascension.

 

[Desert Snake]

Paul never met the historical Jesus my friend. He met the risen Jesus, after the ascension.

Great, so where did the stories about jesus come from.

 

[Bunyip]

Sheesh so you're agreeing with me.

What timeline? How can Paul making stuff up be impossible, compared to Paul communicating with the dead?

 

[Desert Snake]

What timeline? How can Paul making stuff up be impossible, compared to Paul communicating with the dead?

No idea what you're talking about. I'm talking about historical jesus, and asking where the stories about him came from.

 

[Desert Snake]

good grief nevermind I'll just look it up.

 

[Bunyip]

Great, so where did the stories about jesus come from.

Well not the historical Jesus clearly, because he had been crucified several years earlier.

How is it impossible that Paul invented them? Why?

People making stuff up happens all the time, although people accurately communicating with the dead has never been evidenced reliably.
So how is making stuff up (which we know happens all the time) impossible, but communicating with a ghost possible?

 

[Bunyip]

No idea what you're talking about. I'm talking about historical jesus, and asking where the stories about him came from.

Nobody knows, certainly not Paul - Paul never met the historical Jesus. Nobody knows who wrote any of the gospels that tell Jesus story either.

 

[Desert Snake]

Nobody knows, certainly not Paul - Paul never met the historical Jesus.

Nobody knows? okay...........

Great, who cares.

 

[Desert Snake]

Nobody knows, certainly not Paul - Paul never met the historical Jesus. Nobody knows who wrote any of the gospels that tell Jesus story either.

You don't find that odd?

 

[Bunyip]

Nobody knows? okay...........

Great, who cares.

Well you seem to, you were asking. And this thread is asking why people doubt the existence of god - that nobody knows who wrote any of the story of Jesus or when is one of the reasons people doubt.

 

[Bunyip]

You don't find that odd?

Yes of course, it is why I doubt. I do not understand how people can believe in a story that we have no provenance for.

 

[LuisDantas]

Oh well, that is a relief. I thought I was being persecuted for doubting evidence of evolution that I have never seen. I appreciate your support.

I don't support you, and you are being called on your insistence on presenting your refusal to accept the available knowledge as evidence.

Call that persecution if you like, but that does not really make sense.

So you accept circumstantial evidence as fact?

In practice I do, for quite a lot of things. I have never been in France, for instance, but I'm pretty certain that it does exist.

I suppose I could convince myself that it actually does not if I put my mind to it.

Lots of innocent people are convicted falsely for crimes due to circumstantial evidence, not to mention fabricated evidence. But we won't go there. I'm in enough hot water just for being honest.

You are far more determined than honest.

 

[LuisDantas]

And why exactly is that?

A person who is supposedly a religious sage whose birth was announced by a prophecy would logically have been followed around a lot.

Yet there is hardly any record of his existence that is not actually scripture, either Pauline or Gnostic. And even then there is just no record whatsoever of what happened to him between 12 and 30 years of age? Not even some statement about why the Gospel writers even believe him to be the same person?

Then one considers how the Gospels pretty much have to copy from each other to approach a common presentation of what Jesus was like, how vague so many points are, and how even Paul himself admits that he had a vision of a person he fully believed to be dead at that point in time, and it all adds up to a high likelihood of the early Christians not expecting people to believe in a literal Jesus.

 

[LuisDantas]

So is it all made up by Saul/Paul? I don't understand how that's possible given the timeline.

The way I see it, Paul could never hope his disciples to believe in a literal Jesus. Odds are that this belief is a misunderstanding that came later.

 

[Desert Snake]

The way I see it, Paul could never hope his disciples to believe in a literal Jesus. Odds are that this belief is a misunderstanding that came later.

The thing is, there were already Xians around before Saul/Paul compiled the Epistles.

 

[LuisDantas]

The thing is, there were already Xians around before Saul/Paul compiled the Epistles.

Sure, but did they believe in a literal Jesus? I can't tell for certain, but I doubt so.