Why do people expect God, do miracles?

[InvestigateTruth]

Why do people expect God to do miracles?

I suppose it's because that's how He is supposed to have established His bona fides in the first place.

Then why do you think, when they asked Jesus do Miracles, He said only the bad guys ask for a miracle?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Then why do you think, when they asked Jesus do Miracles, He said only the bad guys ask for a miracle?

But isn't he supposed to have done a whole bunch of them, never-the-less?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But isn't he supposed to have done a whole bunch of them, never-the-less?

He said if they believed in Moses they would have believed in Him, since Moses had told them about Messiah. So, since He was the fulfilment of the Prophecies, they were supposed to believe in Him. But they asked for miracles and He rejected it.
The date of the coming Messiah was mentioned in the old Testament, so, They would have known Jesus is that Messiah, if they had believed in Torah.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe in this:


"When the detached wayfarer and sincere seeker hath fulfilled these essential conditions, then and only then can he be called a true seeker. Whensoever he hath fulfilled the conditions implied in the verse: “Whoso maketh efforts for Us", he shall enjoy the blessing conferred by the words: “In Our ways shall We assuredly guide him.” Baha'u'llah

"Thus God misleadeth him who is the transgressor, the doubter.” Bahá’u’lláh


"We have shown thee these two ways; walk thou the way thou choosest. This verily is the truth, and after truth there remaineth naught but error." Baha'u'llah

I don't see how any of that has to do with my question. Can you answer in your own words?

So, I believe the answer is, yes and no.

So you think there are other situations where our "free will" is violated that God tolerates?

 

[Brian2]

Why not? You have a petition (prayer / sacrifice) and an event (rain / sun rises). You think the first is answered petition and the second not? What is different?

It's it teaching things about God which are contrary to what the Bible tells us.

 

[Heyo]

It's it teaching things about God which are contrary to what the Bible tells us.

Have you read the bible?
And also, we were talking about "answered prayer". Do you think that only bible believers get their prayers answered? What is the evidence therefore?

 

[Brian2]

Have you read the bible?
And also, we were talking about "answered prayer". Do you think that only bible believers get their prayers answered? What is the evidence therefore?

I can see why those people might have thought that human sacrifice and prayers were keeping the sun rise happening and keeping the crops growing etc.

 

[Heyo]

I can see why those people might have thought that human sacrifice and prayers were keeping the sun rise happening and keeping the crops growing etc.

It happens when we see a correlation and our pattern seeking mind assumes a causation. Happens every day, even to scientists who are trained to avoid such bias. But without understanding the mechanism from cause to effect and some serious control experiments, we are often fooled.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Then why do you think, when they asked Jesus do Miracles, He said only the bad guys ask for a miracle?

To me, it comes across as excuse-making for an inability to do miracles.

"I could totally do a miracle any time! I just don't want to do one in front of you!"

Kind of the theological equivalent of the "girlfriend in Canada" trope.

 

[Brian2]

It happens when we see a correlation and our pattern seeking mind assumes a causation. Happens every day, even to scientists who are trained to avoid such bias. But without understanding the mechanism from cause to effect and some serious control experiments, we are often fooled.

Yes most of the time it is a matter of faith to judge something as an answer to prayer. Sometimes it is too much to be coincidence and then there are those things that are downright miraculous.
The thing about control experiments with regard to prayer is that they are not dealing with a thing that can be studied like an inanimate object or even a force.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I don't see how any of that has to do with my question. Can you answer in your own words?


So you think there are other situations where our "free will" is violated that God tolerates?

I Mean There are many things we don't choose. For example our genetics, parents, place of birth, culture we brought up in,...and many more. All of these that we did not choose for ourselves, will have an effect on who we are and what we believe. So, I think of this as something we did not choose and it was not our Will.
But on the other hand, everyday and every moment, we are thinking and deciding what to do about different things. Should I do this, or should I do that, is an evidence that we have in a sense free will.
But I believe the part that we don't have choice is much greater than what we choose. So, it seems to me, we have free will, to choose the ways that we face. We do not create those ways, and do not have free will about what ways we face. But once we fact them, we choose what way to go. This is a difficult subject to elaborate.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

To me, it comes across as excuse-making for an inability to do miracles.

"I could totally do a miracle any time! I just don't want to do one in front of you!"

Kind of the theological equivalent of the "girlfriend in Canada" trope.

I think your conclusion is based on what the ideas that the mainstreams have been promoting for centuries.
I mean, if you go completely with the scriptures, while forget about the mainstream Christian view, you may conclude differently.

My view is, Jesus did not do any miracles as generally understood. The Bible have a different definition of miracles than what generally is understood. For example when Jesus healed the blind. This is a miracle. But healing blindness, in scriptures can be understood as healing spiritual blindness, or spiritual awakening, rather the physical eye. That's how I see it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I Mean There are many things we don't choose. For example our genetics, parents, place of birth, culture we brought up in,...and many more. All of these that we did not choose for ourselves, will have an effect on who we are and what we believe. So, I think of this as something we did not choose and it was not our Will.
But on the other hand, everyday and every moment, we are thinking and deciding what to do about different things. Should I do this, or should I do that, is an evidence that we have in a sense free will.
But I believe the part that we don't have choice is much greater than what we choose. So, it seems to me, we have free will, to choose the ways that we face. We do not create those ways, and do not have free will about what ways we face. But once we fact them, we choose what way to go. This is a difficult subject to elaborate.

But I asked specifically about beliefs.

When you were talking about the idea of God providing evidence for his existence, you asked "Do you even have a choice to disbelieve?" with the implication being that answering the question "no" would imply that we wouldn't have free will in that moment.

What I'm asking you for is how this would be different from any time we're convinced of anything.

I "don't have a choice to disbelieve" that the sky is blue or that gravity pulls downward.

Belief is generally involuntary. We can't choose to be convinced when we aren't and we can't choose to be unconvinced when we are.

... so how is belief in God special in this regard?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think your conclusion is based on what the ideas that the mainstreams have been promoting for centuries.
I mean, if you go completely with the scriptures, while forget about the mainstream Christian view, you may conclude differently.

My view is, Jesus did not do any miracles as generally understood. The Bible have a different definition of miracles than what generally is understood. For example when Jesus healed the blind. This is a miracle. But healing blindness, in scriptures can be understood as healing spiritual blindness, or spiritual awakening, rather the physical eye. That's how I see it.

I don't see any connection between the actual Bible and what you're saying is in the Bible.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But I asked specifically about beliefs.

When you were talking about the idea of God providing evidence for his existence, you asked "Do you even have a choice to disbelieve?" with the implication being that answering the question "no" would imply that we wouldn't have free will in that moment.

What I'm asking you for is how this would be different from any time we're convinced of anything.

I "don't have a choice to disbelieve" that the sky is blue or that gravity pulls downward.

Belief is generally involuntary. We can't choose to be convinced when we aren't and we can't choose to be unconvinced when we are.

... so how is belief in God special in this regard?

I believe (based on Baha'i Scriptures) that the purpose of God is to create an infinitely diverse humanity. I mean, diversity in terms of spiritual qualities, from the most kind, most forgiving, most generous, most just, to the worst possible human that one can imagine. Just as we see in the nature there is an infinite diversity in creatures.
How does God do that? My answer would seem very strange and unacceptable, but I say it anyways. He has been doing that by the scriptures that has been revealed in every Age from a Manifestation of God. It is the scriptures that has caused this world of humanity to be as it is now. Scriptures cause from the best to worst humans to be created in the world, through the response of the humanity to it. As you even see, some of the worst people are believers in a God. This subject is very difficult, and I completely understand if sounds absurd.
But, it is related to the question you are asking. If God was to do a miracle that made or forced everyone to just believe, then He could not creat this diversity in the world of humanity. That's not what God wants.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There is a difference between, one who makes a serious effort to find the evidence for God, comparing to if anyone sees the evidence regardless if they wanted or not.

Finding evidence pretty much always takes serious effort. It took several centuries of investigation and inquiry for an Einstein to find out what Newton was missing.
How do I distinguish your "method" of "finding evidence for god" from mere self-brainwashing?

It is about finding God rather than facing God without free will.

Again with that "free will" thing.
Again, I have no idea what that has got to do with anything. I've done several posts now asking for you to explain it.
Are you going to, or...?

 

[Heyo]

Yes most of the time it is a matter of faith to judge something as an answer to prayer. Sometimes it is too much to be coincidence and then there are those things that are downright miraculous.
The thing about control experiments with regard to prayer is that they are not dealing with a thing that can be studied like an inanimate object or even a force.

Or a drug? With new drugs we often don't know the mechanism. We also know that people are different. That's why scientists do intensive statistical analyses to get the confidence that the drug really works and it's not only a coincidence or a placebo effect.
They did that with intercessory prayer and the results are not conclusive. Some studies found that prayer is even detrimental to healing, some found it to work, most found no statistical correlation.
So, yes, prayer can be studied and has been.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe (based on Baha'i Scriptures) that the purpose of God is to create an infinitely diverse humanity. I mean, diversity in terms of spiritual qualities, from the most kind, most forgiving, most generous, most just, to the worst possible human that one can imagine. Just as we see in the nature there is an infinite diversity in creatures.
How does God do that? My answer would seem very strange and unacceptable, but I say it anyways. He has been doing that by the scriptures that has been revealed in every Age from a Manifestation of God. It is the scriptures that has caused this world of humanity to be as it is now. Scriptures cause from the best to worst humans to be created in the world, through the response of the humanity to it. As you even see, some of the worst people are believers in a God. This subject is very difficult, and I completely understand if sounds absurd.
But, it is related to the question you are asking. If God was to do a miracle that made or forced everyone to just believe, then He could not creat this diversity in the world of humanity. That's not what God wants.

Why did you avoid answering my question?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why did you avoid answering my question?

I believe I did.

You are asking how the belief in God is special.

Depends on what you mean by believe in God.
Do you mean, belief that a God exists who created the world?

I believe that's what you would mean.

It can be very useless, it can be delusional, it can be superstitious, it can be extremely harmful, and it can be the best thing.

It depends on how one sees God. Meaning, it depends on knowing the True God. It is not about believing there a God. It is about who that God is.
And the true understanding of God, comes from true understanding of scriptures. If followers of a certain Faith, misinterpret the Book of God, though they believe in the God, the result could be the most harmful. Consider, who were the people who really caused Jesus to die on the cross. Were they not believers in one God?
Or who killed the Bab, and imprisoned Baha'u'llah? Were they not believers in a God?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe I did.

Then you missed my point.

You are asking how the belief in God is special.

I'm asking why not being able to choose to disbelieve in God would be any different from not being able to choose to disbelieve in any other thing we believe.

Can you choose to believe that the sky is pink?

All belief is involuntary, so if we have free will, then involuntary belief doesn't take away our free will.