Why do people expect God, do miracles?

[Koldo]

No body is going to insult your intelligence my friend.

The expectation that if there is a God then He must do unrealistic things, and if no unrealistic things happen then there is no God, in my view is a common error in the minds of most people.
I for one, do not believe this, neither does the Bahai Faith teach that.

Why would anyone make such a conclusion, that since we don't see any unrealistic things happening, thus there is no true God? Who defines God as one who supposed to do unrealistic things?

There is absolutely nothing unrealistic to an omnipotent deity, except that which is inherently logically contradictory.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Because if a God doesn't do that, why bother believing in Him?

Ciao

- viole

Because He may wish to prove it, by other means, instead of performing miracles.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is absolutely nothing unrealistic to an omnipotent deity, except that which is inherently logically contradictory.

Right, but who gets to decide if for example miracles are unrealistic or not?

 

[Koldo]

Right, but who gets to decide if for example miracles are unrealistic or not?

What difference does it make if nothing is unrealistic to God?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What difference does it make if nothing is unrealistic to God?

I am not sure if nothing is unrealistic to God. God only does realistic and logical things. He does not do any illogical or unrealistic things. If God does unrealistic things, God would be illogical.
God Himself is supernatural, and has supernatural powers, but He only uses His supernatural power to do things logical and realistic in this world.
For example He reveals good teachings to humanity through His Manifestations. This is why Manifestations did not study those things that they have revealed from God. They did not learn them from anywhere else, or anyone else, but they received revelations. Now, if you want to call this unrealistic, it is fine. But I call it supernatural power. But if God wants to talk to humanity and He does that through His Manifestations, why would this be unrealistic? Everyone can talk, why cannot God?

 

[Koldo]

I am not sure if nothing is unrealistic to God. God only does realistic and logical things. He does not do any illogical or unrealistic things. If God does unrealistic things, God would be illogical.
God Himself is supernatural, and has supernatural powers, but He only uses His supernatural power to do things logical and realistic in this world.
For example He reveals good teachings to humanity through His Manifestations. This is why Manifestations did not study those things that they have revealed from God. They did not learn them from anywhere else, or anyone else, but they received revelations. Now, if you want to call this unrealistic, it is fine. But I call it supernatural power. But if God wants to talk to humanity and He does that through His Manifestations, why would this be unrealistic? Everyone can talk, why cannot God?

How are you defining what the term 'realistic' means here?

I am interpreting it to mean 'achievable' and 'doable'. It is therefore unrealistic to me to fly using the power of my mind alone, and realistic to me to type this post. Therefore, there is essentially nothing unrealistic about an omnipotent deity doing... anything.

I am not sure what is going on, but it sounds like you are using human perspective and limitations to say what is realistic to God (For example, if humans can talk, it is realistic for God to talk). And there is no good reason to do that.

 

[syo]

Who says, the true God must do Miracles, by breaking the Laws of nature, and make things happen Miraclesly?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How are you defining what the term 'realistic' means here?

I am interpreting it to mean 'achievable' and 'doable'. It is therefore unrealistic to me to fly using the power of my mind alone, and realistic to me to type this post. Therefore, there is essentially nothing unrealistic about an omnipotent deity doing... anything.

I am not sure what is going on, but it sounds like you are using human perspective and limitations to say what is realistic to God (For example, if humans can talk, it is realistic for God to talk). And there is no good reason to do that. And this is the reality.

God created this world naturally. All of it follows the Laws of Nature, the Laws of physics. Thus, whatever happens in this world is natural. This is realistic. If I expect somethings happen that does not follow the Laws of physics, or breaks the rules of physics and nature, that would be unrealistic.

Do you see anything unrealistic happening in the world, or ever, anyone recorded an unrealistic event, such as splitting the moon, or resurrection of the dead?

 

[Koldo]

God created this world naturally. All of it follows the Laws of Nature, the Laws of physics. Thus, whatever happens in this world is natural. This is realistic. If I expect somethings happen that does not follow the Laws of physics, or breaks the rules of physics and nature, that would be unrealistic.

Do you see anything unrealistic happening in the world, or ever, anyone recorded an unrealistic event, such as splitting the moon, or resurrection of the dead?

Do the laws of physics precede the existence of God? If not, then God created the world through an unrealistic method that brought about the law of physics.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think I get that now.
Basically the expectation that God and His Messenger are supposed to do Miracles, are based on Bible, or the so called Holy Books. More specifically, seems this expectation comes from treating a Holy Book literally. So, when it says, dead shall rise, that exactly means that. A physical event, nothing else.

Here Jesus gives his reason for doing miracle...

Matthew 9 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”​

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3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”​

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4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.​

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Do you believe that Jesus literally had the power to forgive this man's sins? And... Do you think he literally healed him? And don't feel bad if you don't, because I question it too. I think there is a very good chance these stories are fictional and were made up to make Jesus into a miracle working God/man. But I do believe that the gospel story was meant to be taken literally and not "symbolically" like Baha'is seem to do.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Do the laws of physics precede the existence of God? If not, then God created the world through an unrealistic method that brought about the law of physics.

Either way, this world is based on Natural Laws. There could be other worlds which are Spiritual, as per our scriptures. Here, in this world I can only expect everything based on Laws of physics.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Here Jesus gives his reason for doing miracle...

Matthew 9 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”​

​

3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”​

​

4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.​

​

Do you believe that Jesus literally had the power to forgive this man's sins? And... Do you think he literally healed him? And don't feel bad if you don't, because I question it too. I think there is a very good chance these stories are fictional and were made up to make Jesus into a miracle working God/man. But I do believe that the gospel story was meant to be taken literally and not "symbolically" like Baha'is seem to do.

One thing, I think I know now. God and His Prophets never did any such miracles.
Then it follows only two options I suppose: either God does not exist, or He does, but He does not do miracles. I believe in the latter. If the latter is the truth, then it follows that, there is only one option, and that is the Scriptures are symbolic, and as Baha'u'llah says, they are meant to be a test for believers.

 

[CG Didymus]

One thing, I think I know now. God and His Prophets never did any such miracles.
Then it follows only two options I suppose: either God does not exist, or He does, but He does not do miracles. I believe in the latter. If the latter is the truth, then it follows that, there is only one option, and that is the Scriptures are symbolic, and as Baha'u'llah says, they are meant to be a test for believers.

If the miracles didn't happen, I don't see why the most obvious answer would be that the gospel writers made them up or that they just took what legends and traditions were being said about Jesus.

Oh, and I know it's proper to think of the NT as "Scriptures", but we all know that the gospels and the epistles were written by the followers of Jesus and not by God or Jesus. How well did they remember what Jesus said and did. And that's if they were even witnesses to what he said and did. And then there was the process of canonizing which gospels and epistles got into the NT.

That is one of the problems I have with thinking that the gospel writers, all four of them, all wrote stories about Jesus that seemed as if they were real events, but they knew all the time they were fictional and that they were meant to be symbolic. But then again, although I'm skeptical about healing miracles, and I know that many of them are probably fake, lots of people even today say that God healed them... and not symbolically.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

This is sort of continuation of another thread: Suppose today, God sends a Savior
What I see, is almost all people, think, the true God, and true Messengers are supposed to do Miracles.
Why do people expect God to miraculously make everything right, to solve humanity problems?
i mean, if the people do not cooperate with His messengers, and do not follow His guide, do you still expect a true God make everything right Miraclesly? And if that does not happen, do you conclude that, the Messenger was not from the God?
Is that a realistic expectation? Why? Who says, the true God must do Miracles, by breaking the Laws of nature, and make things happen Miraclesly?

Is Resurrection really breaking the laws of nature.
Because fallen mankind can Not direct his step - Jeremiah 10:23 - is why we need someone who can successfully direct us.
This is a reason why God sent Messenger Jesus to direct our step so we can have a successful future - Jeremiah 29:11
So that we can succeed in a succession of successful successes.
MAN's long history has proven that MAN has dominated MAN to MAN's hurt, MAN's injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9
God has allowed enough time for mankind to try every form of government that man could want to try.
So, yes, we can expect the True God (YHWH) to make things right.
The ' sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth ' will rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15
As the old adage says, ' it is always darkest before the dawn ' so before Jesus takes action there is a coming great tribulation - Rev. 7:14.
Thus, there will be divine involvement into mankind's affairs otherwise there would be No real hope for humanity.
For God's kingdom (Dan. 2:44) is a real government (thy kingdom come...) headed by Christ as King.- 1st Cor. 15:24-26
We are all invited to pray the invitation to God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Rev. 22:2

 

[Boris Norris]

Is Resurrection really breaking the laws of nature.
Because fallen mankind can Not direct his step - Jeremiah 10:23 - is why we need someone who can successfully direct us.
This is a reason why God sent Messenger Jesus to direct our step so we can have a successful future - Jeremiah 29:11
So that we can succeed in a succession of successful successes.
MAN's long history has proven that MAN has dominated MAN to MAN's hurt, MAN's injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9
God has allowed enough time for mankind to try every form of government that man could want to try.
So, yes, we can expect the True God (YHWH) to make things right.
The ' sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth ' will rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15
As the old adage says, ' it is always darkest before the dawn ' so before Jesus takes action there is a coming great tribulation - Rev. 7:14.
Thus, there will be divine involvement into mankind's affairs otherwise there would be No real hope for humanity.
For God's kingdom (Dan. 2:44) is a real government (thy kingdom come...) headed by Christ as King.- 1st Cor. 15:24-26
We are all invited to pray the invitation to God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Rev. 22:2

With respect, I'd rather all this time was spent establishing that a god exists. From what I've read, there's no indication so far.

 

[Koldo]

Either way, this world is based on Natural Laws. There could be other worlds which are Spiritual, as per our scriptures. Here, in this world I can only expect everything based on Laws of physics.

If the world behaves exactly as if God doesn't exist, why believe that God exists?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One thing, I think I know now. God and His Prophets never did any such miracles.

How could you possibly know this?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If the world behaves exactly as if God doesn't exist, why believe that God exists?

Very good question. I think you are asking, if everything in this natural world is working based on Laws of physics and science, what would be the reason to believe in a supernatural God?

One answer is, the Holy Books and the signs in them.
Of course, it may be said, anyone can write a book, and claiming it from God.

Well, that is a perception. My perception is, the Holy Books came from a supernatural source as it claims, and no one else could write such Books. But, obviously not everyone has the same perception or view on Holy Books.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Very good question. I think you are asking, if everything in this natural world is working based on Laws of physics and science, what would be the reason to believe in a supernatural God?

One answer is, the Holy Books and the signs in them.
Of course, it may be said, anyone can write a book, and claiming it from God.

Well, that is a perception. My perception is, the Holy Books came from a supernatural source as it claims, and no one else could write such Books. But, obviously not everyone has the same perception or view on Holy Books.

So you agree that - except for a specific set of books you consider holy - everything we see around us is consistent with God not existing?

It seems like this is what you're saying, but I wanted to make sure.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So you agree that - except for a specific set of books you consider holy - everything we see around us is consistent with God not existing?

It seems like this is what you're saying, but I wanted to make sure.

I am saying that, this materialistic world, is working based on Laws of physics.
When observing this world, one can say, this physical world must have been created by God, and another may say, there is no such evidence, because all of it is explainable by science, and though we know little now, in future we discover more and more.
So, I am saying if we observe this world we cannot say, if a God created it, or it just somehow existed, and or evolved as science has already discovered a little of its knowledge.
But, beside this apparent world, my perception is only the Holy Books, and Those Major Messengers of God, are the evidence for the God.